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Topic: Steve Forte...
Message: Posted by: AsL (Feb 18, 2008 06:49PM)
I just saw Steve Forte in action for the first time since I've started studying magic quite some time ago. All I can say is WOW! Talk about talent. I wish I would've been more familiar with his work earlier...

All the Best,
magicianguy4life
Message: Posted by: DNshade (Feb 18, 2008 07:11PM)
It's nice to have your eyes opened huh? Steve has the best pair of hands out there - period. Especially when it comes to anything gaming related.

D
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 18, 2008 07:17PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-18 20:11, DNshade wrote:
It's nice to have your eyes opened huh? Steve has the best pair of hands out there - period. Especially when it comes to anything gaming related.

D
[/quote]

Not quite sure about that.... but he certainly is excellent.
Message: Posted by: DNshade (Feb 18, 2008 08:45PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-18 20:17, magicfish wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-18 20:11, DNshade wrote:
It's nice to have your eyes opened huh? Steve has the best pair of hands out there - period. Especially when it comes to anything gaming related.

D
[/quote]

Not quite sure about that.... but he certainly is excellent.
[/quote]

Well I am quite sure - as are the rest of the guys who know. Take my word for it. A whole different level.

D
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Feb 18, 2008 09:01PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-18 20:17, magicfish wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-18 20:11, DNshade wrote:
It's nice to have your eyes opened huh? Steve has the best pair of hands out there - period. Especially when it comes to anything gaming related.

D
[/quote]

Not quite sure about that.... but he certainly is excellent.
[/quote]

Who would you say is better?
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Feb 18, 2008 09:09PM)
I have to agree that Steve is the best. He isn't held in such high esteam from no reason. Steve can do the moves and as of yet there has not been anyone that can top him. That doesn't mean that there isn't someone out there that could but so far there has been no one that can.
Message: Posted by: Tom Christensen (Feb 18, 2008 09:14PM)
I've never seen Steve perform. How does he compare to my favorite gambling cheat, Richard Turner?
Message: Posted by: Chris SD (Feb 18, 2008 09:29PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-18 22:14, Tom Christensen wrote:
I've never seen Steve perform. How does he compare to my favorite gambling cheat, Richard Turner?
[/quote]

...He's better, and he can see.
Message: Posted by: in flames (Feb 18, 2008 10:21PM)
Lee Asher told me, just seeing Steve hold a deck in his hand, he was in awe. that's how good Steve is.
Message: Posted by: Hansen (Feb 18, 2008 10:48PM)
I think those in the know say that Steve Forte is the best, with Richard Turner the next in line. Both men are truly brilliant with a deck of cards in their hands.
Message: Posted by: pepka (Feb 19, 2008 01:00AM)
Forte is the man, 'nuff said. I got to meet Richard Turner a year ago and was really in awe of his skill. I can say he's up there, but Steve is a killer.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 19, 2008 04:15AM)
Forte is definitely right there, the guy is awesome. I definitely put him up near the top, but the best? again, I'm not sure about that. That's all. Personally I would prefer to watch Ricky Jay with a pack of cards.

Jason

P.S. I also like Steve Freeman and Persi Diaconis
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Feb 19, 2008 07:23AM)
Steve rocks - but seems to move in fast company
Message: Posted by: Dorian Rhodell (Feb 19, 2008 02:23PM)
From what I hear, I believe the gentlemen Magicfish would rather watch, would rather watch Forte. I also believe the said gentlemen would agree with Damien's assertion.

Best,

Dorian Rhodell
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Feb 19, 2008 09:44PM)
I think what the original poster was trying to say is that Steve Forte has the best chops with cards move wise of anyone. Not that he was the best performer. I can see where some would say they would rather watch Ricky Jay perform. I would agree Ricky would be much more entertaining but skill wise Steve surpasses Ricky or anyone else at this time.


Randy
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Feb 19, 2008 10:12PM)
I read that as well
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 19, 2008 10:42PM)
Forte is an expert. I don't know if I've seen better seconds. And overall I'd say he's definitely one of the best few.
That said, he does work a tad fast. Also, this is a magic forum- specifically cards. And it is my opinion that the greatest exponent of pure sleight of hand with cards on planet earth at this moment is Ricky Jay. He is smoother, calmer. His study of Vernon and Miller come through with every touch. Forte is rock em sockem- Jay is poetry in motion.
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Feb 19, 2008 11:22PM)
Agreed magic wise Ricky is the man . But otherwise it's Steve no question He's over Ricky and anyone else.
Message: Posted by: pepka (Feb 20, 2008 12:26AM)
Look at it this way. Steve's main area of expertise is casino security. He has served as a consultant at dozens of casinos and authored books on the subject. To my knowledge he doesn't really perform for the general public. Ricky and Richard are performers. I'm sure Ricky's main source of income comes from other projects, but come on, the guy has been on Broadway in a one man show that was directed by David Mamet. They are entertainers, and Steve is a technician.

Jason, if you're still reading this, any update on the DVDs? Will you have some at WMS?
Message: Posted by: Bret Maverick (Feb 20, 2008 10:30AM)
I'm just curious, Magicfish, on what you base your conclusion that Steve always works "a tad fast" in a "rock em sockem" fashion, lacking the smoothness and calmness that Ricky Jay presents. Besides his twenty year old GPS videotapes and his ten year old appearance on NBC's Hidden Secrets of Magic posted all over the Internet, video of Steve's card work is rather scarce, thereby limiting one's ability to objectively critique his overall skill and ability, and accurately compare his work today with others.

I am confident that the members of this forum who know Steve well(including a few who've already posted within this thread) would agree that Steve has the ability to adjust his dealing style and card handling methods to suit any venue and, while he modestly claims not to be a magician, he has the uncanny ability to perform a series of seemingly impromptu, yet well choreographed effects that many magicians would be proud to call their own, and others can only dream of imitating.

Please do not interpret this post to negate in any way Ricky Jay's vast knowledge of both magic and gambling ploys, his wonderful talent or his tremendous performing ability. Ricky Jay, as Steve described him in Paul Wilson's Genii article, is "a talent unlike anyone I have ever met", and is one of Steve's favorite magicians.

I simply feel that it is unfair and unnecessary to degrade one card master's skill to praise another's, especially when they are from different professions.

Bret Maverick
Message: Posted by: Cohiba (Feb 20, 2008 10:39PM)
It seems like this thread is comparing apples to oranges. As far as I know, and from what I've seen, Steve is not a magician. He doesn't do magic tricks, he shows what is possible with a deck of cards (and dice, etc.) at the gambling tables. That's not magic - the technique is openly shown and described.

There's not a magician alive that can compare to his expertise with a deck of cards when it comes to gambling sleights and routines. On the other hand, there are many magicians that could blow him away with card manipulation, or a variety of other "magic tricks". It also may be possible that there is a card handler out there that is better than Steve. If so, his name wouldn't be known to magicians. He'd be a professional gambler.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Feb 20, 2008 10:56PM)
Spot on . . .
Message: Posted by: Dorian Rhodell (Feb 21, 2008 01:11AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-20 23:39, Cohiba wrote:
It seems like this thread is comparing apples to oranges. As far as I know, and from what I've seen, Steve is not a magician. He doesn't do magic tricks, he shows what is possible with a deck of cards (and dice, etc.) at the gambling tables. That's not magic - the technique is openly shown and described.

There's not a magician alive that can compare to his expertise with a deck of cards when it comes to gambling sleights and routines. On the other hand, there are many magicians that could blow him away with card manipulation, or a variety of other "magic tricks". It also may be possible that there is a card handler out there that is better than Steve. If so, his name wouldn't be known to magicians. He'd be a professional gambler.
[/quote]
To quote Paul Chosse,

"As for Forte, someone posted to the effect that he is not a magician - nothing could be further from the truth - ask one of HIS mentors, Ray Goulet..."

Best,

Dorian Rhodell
Message: Posted by: Cohiba (Feb 21, 2008 08:28AM)
Dorian:
I am not an expert on Forte - I've only seen some of his work on television and his Gambling Protection series. I'm sure with his chops that he can pull off some pretty cool card magic tricks - why would you not do some neat effects from a related field when you already have the tools at your disposal?

However, his "thing" is gambling. Just like Pavarotti could no doubt sing other types of music, he was primarily known for opera music. That was his niche. Many magicians can pull off a simple gambling trick or two, but you wouldn't classify them as false dealing / gambling experts.

The fact that he had a magician as a mentor, and maybe started his path due to an interest in magic is irrelevent in my opinion. He settled into his niche as probably the best false dealer / gambling demonstrator out there. His latest offering is a massive book on all forms of gambling protection. I doubt there's a magician that could have produced that book.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Feb 21, 2008 10:13AM)
[quote]
I am not an expert on Forte -
[/quote]
Your statement is dead on.
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Feb 21, 2008 11:56AM)
It is just a matter of taste, I think DARWIN ORTIZ works smoother.

walid
Message: Posted by: Danny Borneo (Feb 21, 2008 01:10PM)
Darwin is amazing and a very competent performer, but I wouldn't really put him in the same class as Forte. Now maybe I'm out of line here (I don't keep as much with the politics of this thing we do as much as I used to due to other projects), but I see no mention of Martin Nash. From what I remember of the performances I've seen of his he can hold his own with Forte, not saying he's better, but could definitely keep pace with him for a long while. Again I haven't seen anything of his in years, but what I remember was amazing.
Message: Posted by: Cain (Feb 21, 2008 01:57PM)
Steve Forte vs. Ricky Jay vs. Martin Nash vs. Darwin Ortiz blah blah blah. After this maybe you guys could argue over which one of your dads would win in a fight, or better yet, if Guile could actually take Zangiff. Frankly, I never bought the whole "razor kick" idea (it's physically impossible).
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Feb 21, 2008 02:00PM)
This thread has gotten so sidetracked from what it was obviously intended to say.

No one was trying to say that Forte is better at performing magic then anyone. What I read and what some are trying to say as well. When it comes to gambling moves Steve Forte has no equal. This has been true in the past and at this time still is.

No one is trying to take anything away from Ricky Jay, Or anyother expert cardmen that we know of. The simple fact was posted by the author of this thread that Forte was the best. Those who know this to be the fact agreed. Those that tried to read more into the original post have sidetracked it and turned it into something compleatly different.

Randy
Message: Posted by: Chris SD (Feb 21, 2008 02:03PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-21 14:10, Danny Borneo wrote:
Now maybe I'm out of line here (I don't keep as much with the politics of this thing we do as much as I used to due to other projects), but I see no mention of Martin Nash. From what I remember of the performances I've seen of his he can hold his own with Forte, not saying he's better, but could definitely keep pace with him for a long while.
[/quote]

By reading your post, I'm not sure whether we're talking about card handling or a timed mile.
Darwin Ortiz, Steve Forte, and Martin Nash don't need random guys on the magic Café to measure their chops for them.
Message: Posted by: Danny Borneo (Feb 21, 2008 02:15PM)
To both Caine and Chris SD those are pretty harsh reactions to someone's post who is engaging in a conversation and giving an opinion in an open forum. The discussion was on the skills of Steve Forte which I basically acknowledge and am in awe of Forte's skill but was just bringing up another cardman's skill that some may have overlooked in there talk (which was already going on before I gave my opinion). Keeping with the initial post I gave Forte his Kudos, but added to the topic for further discussion and not to have an opinion shot down. Sorry if that rubbed either of you the wrong way but no need to flame someone on their opinion. I would also assume that none of the aforementioned magicians need someone to defend their honor from people expressing their opinions about them either.
Message: Posted by: Hansen (Feb 21, 2008 02:26PM)
This is what I'm really waiting on...

http://www.gamblingprotectionseries.com/
Message: Posted by: Mano (Feb 21, 2008 07:03PM)
Hansen,

Ditto.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Feb 21, 2008 07:51PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-21 15:26, Hansen wrote:
This is what I'm really waiting on...

http://www.gamblingprotectionseries.com/
[/quote]

amen
Message: Posted by: Chris SD (Feb 21, 2008 07:57PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-21 15:15, Danny Borneo wrote:
To both Caine and Chris SD those are pretty harsh reactions to someone's post who is engaging in a conversation and giving an opinion in an open forum. The discussion was on the skills of Steve Forte which I basically acknowledge and am in awe of Forte's skill but was just bringing up another cardman's skill that some may have overlooked in there talk (which was already going on before I gave my opinion). Keeping with the initial post I gave Forte his Kudos, but added to the topic for further discussion and not to have an opinion shot down. Sorry if that rubbed either of you the wrong way but no need to flame someone on their opinion. I would also assume that none of the aforementioned magicians need someone to defend their honor from people expressing their opinions about them either.
[/quote]

I'm never harsh, I can assure you I wrote that with a smile.
But, if you really want to make comparisons, Martin Nash is to Steve Forte what Sylvester Stallone is to Mike Tyson.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Feb 21, 2008 09:34PM)
As actors?
Message: Posted by: Cohiba (Feb 21, 2008 11:53PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-21 15:03, Chris SD wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-21 14:10, Danny Borneo wrote:
Now maybe I'm out of line here (I don't keep as much with the politics of this thing we do as much as I used to due to other projects), but I see no mention of Martin Nash. From what I remember of the performances I've seen of his he can hold his own with Forte, not saying he's better, but could definitely keep pace with him for a long while.
[/quote]

By reading your post, I'm not sure whether we're talking about card handling or a timed mile.
Darwin Ortiz, Steve Forte, and Martin Nash don't need random guys on the magic Café to measure their chops for them.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone was doing this for Darwin's, Steve's, or Martin's benefit.

[quote]
On 2008-02-21 20:57, Chris SD wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-21 15:15, Danny Borneo wrote:
To both Caine and Chris SD those are pretty harsh reactions to someone's post who is engaging in a conversation and giving an opinion in an open forum. The discussion was on the skills of Steve Forte which I basically acknowledge and am in awe of Forte's skill but was just bringing up another cardman's skill that some may have overlooked in there talk (which was already going on before I gave my opinion). Keeping with the initial post I gave Forte his Kudos, but added to the topic for further discussion and not to have an opinion shot down. Sorry if that rubbed either of you the wrong way but no need to flame someone on their opinion. I would also assume that none of the aforementioned magicians need someone to defend their honor from people expressing their opinions about them either.
[/quote]

I'm never harsh, I can assure you I wrote that with a smile.
But, if you really want to make comparisons, Martin Nash is to Steve Forte what Sylvester Stallone is to Mike Tyson.
[/quote]

I agree completely.

[quote]
On 2008-02-21 15:00, RS1963 wrote:
This thread has gotten so sidetracked from what it was obviously intended to say.

No one was trying to say that Forte is better at performing magic then anyone. What I read and what some are trying to say as well. When it comes to gambling moves Steve Forte has no equal. This has been true in the past and at this time still is.

No one is trying to take anything away from Ricky Jay, Or anyother expert cardmen that we know of. The simple fact was posted by the author of this thread that Forte was the best. Those who know this to be the fact agreed. Those that tried to read more into the original post have sidetracked it and turned it into something compleatly different.

Randy
[/quote]

Several people in the thread suggested that Forte might not be all he's cracked up to be. Others disagreed.

As far as this thread deviating from the OP, there's very few threads out there to which that isn't the case.

[quote]
On 2008-02-21 14:57, Cain wrote:
Steve Forte vs. Ricky Jay vs. Martin Nash vs. Darwin Ortiz blah blah blah. After this maybe you guys could argue over which one of your dads would win in a fight, or better yet, if Guile could actually take Zangiff. Frankly, I never bought the whole "razor kick" idea (it's physically impossible).
[/quote]

I bet Forte can kick Martin's butt.

[quote]
On 2008-02-21 11:13, silverking wrote:
[quote]
I am not an expert on Forte -
[/quote]
Your statement is dead on.
[/quote]

I'd love to be enlightened. As a fan of Forte's, any new information would be much appreciated, and I doubt I'm the only one. What do you know that could expand my mind?
Message: Posted by: Medifro (Feb 22, 2008 02:40AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-22 00:59, Cohiba wrote:
I bet Forte can kick Martin's butt.
[/quote]
What is this? Some sort of a game where card heroes fight together?

Personally, I never found it good to compare, especially when it comes to legends of card handling. Saying "Ortiz is better" or whatever, its like children who watched a super hero program, and fighting on Superman being better than Batman.

What I do know, that I aim to be better than them. :)

~ Feras
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Feb 22, 2008 03:32AM)
Why still has nobody mentioned Johnny Ace Palmer?!?!?
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Feb 22, 2008 04:26AM)
Because he doesn't palm Aces anymore?

Anyways, everybody knows Batman is clearly superior to Superman.
Message: Posted by: Danny Borneo (Feb 22, 2008 04:49AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-21 20:57, Chris SD wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-21 15:15, Danny Borneo wrote:
To both Caine and Chris SD those are pretty harsh reactions to someone's post who is engaging in a conversation and giving an opinion in an open forum. The discussion was on the skills of Steve Forte which I basically acknowledge and am in awe of Forte's skill but was just bringing up another cardman's skill that some may have overlooked in there talk (which was already going on before I gave my opinion). Keeping with the initial post I gave Forte his Kudos, but added to the topic for further discussion and not to have an opinion shot down. Sorry if that rubbed either of you the wrong way but no need to flame someone on their opinion. I would also assume that none of the aforementioned magicians need someone to defend their honor from people expressing their opinions about them either.
[/quote]

I'm never harsh, I can assure you I wrote that with a smile.
But, if you really want to make comparisons, Martin Nash is to Steve Forte what Sylvester Stallone is to Mike Tyson.
[/quote]

Really I would think that both Sylvester and Mike wouldn't be that good with a deck of cards :) I mean it has to be hard to do a decent second deal with a pair of boxing gloves on. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up Chris, I guess I read more into your thread than was there and thought a light hearted discussion was taking a bad turn as has often happened in threads on this place lately, not necessarily this forum but some others I won't mention.
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Feb 22, 2008 08:47AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-22 05:26, rawdawg wrote:
Because he doesn't palm Aces anymore?

Anyways, everybody knows Batman is clearly superior to Superman.
[/quote]

Yes. Everyone will agree on that. Or they're wrong.
Message: Posted by: Mano (Feb 22, 2008 10:00AM)
I personally think that Superman is better,he has stronger and faster fingers than Batman,you guys know how important they are in card magic;E.G. pinky break,top change an invisible pass,etc.


Go Superman.
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Feb 22, 2008 10:49AM)
If you wanna see faster fingers get all speedy gonzales dvds.

walid
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 22, 2008 11:15AM)
Have you seen the Invisible Man's [i]Invisible Deck[/i] routine? It's the best routine that I haven't seen.
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Feb 22, 2008 11:52AM)
Is it perform with blue or red backs?
Message: Posted by: Sean Macfarlane (Feb 22, 2008 01:18PM)
Steve's new DVD's....are they a new? or the old ones put on DVD?

Sean
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Feb 22, 2008 01:22PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-22 14:18, Sean Macfarlane wrote:
Steve's new DVD's....are they a new? or the old ones put on DVD?

Sean
[/quote]
One answer will be yes the other answer no
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 22, 2008 01:52PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-21 14:57, Cain wrote:
Steve Forte vs. Ricky Jay vs. Martin Nash vs. Darwin Ortiz blah blah blah. After this maybe you guys could argue over which one of your dads would win in a fight, or better yet, if Guile could actually take Zangiff. Frankly, I never bought the whole "razor kick" idea (it's physically impossible).
[/quote]

It's interesting how many people ridicule such interesting topics like comparing and contrasting to of the greatest practitioners of our beloved craft. I don't know about you guys, but I love an intelligent, civilized discussion about the true greats. Instead of talking about a shift or a cut. To compare these discussions to comic books or who's dad would win in a fight is absurd.
Sincerely, Fish
Message: Posted by: Hansen (Feb 22, 2008 02:44PM)
Oh come on, everyone knows Spiderman is, and has always been, the best.
Message: Posted by: Hansen (Feb 22, 2008 02:53PM)
And now for the real deal:

http://www.casinogameprotection.com/index.html

Let the drooling begin...
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Feb 22, 2008 03:11PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-22 15:44, Hansen wrote:
Oh come on, everyone knows Spiderman is, and has always been, the best.
[/quote]

No - I would not argue with you on that one. Well, I could -but I'd be wrong.
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Feb 22, 2008 03:14PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-22 11:00, Mano wrote:
I personally think that Superman is better,he has stronger and faster fingers than Batman,you guys know how important they are in card magic;E.G. pinky break,top change an invisible pass,etc.


Go Superman.
[/quote]

Superman is to ECM what Batman is to Card Magic.
Message: Posted by: Cain (Feb 22, 2008 03:42PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-22 14:52, magicfish wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-21 14:57, Cain wrote:
Steve Forte vs. Ricky Jay vs. Martin Nash vs. Darwin Ortiz blah blah blah. After this maybe you guys could argue over which one of your dads would win in a fight, or better yet, if Guile could actually take Zangiff. Frankly, I never bought the whole "razor kick" idea (it's physically impossible).
[/quote]

It's interesting how many people ridicule such interesting topics like comparing and contrasting to of the greatest practitioners of our beloved craft. I don't know about you guys, but I love an intelligent, civilized discussion about the true greats. Instead of talking about a shift or a cut. To compare these discussions to comic books or who's dad would win in a fight is absurd.
Sincerely, Fish
[/quote]

True, Zangiff [i]is[/i] seven feet tall. How on planet earth can he be so nimble? I mean, a [i]spinning[/i] pile driver?! That's physically impossible.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 22, 2008 07:36PM)
For those of you capable of sucha discussion.... I would love to hear more.
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Feb 22, 2008 08:00PM)
Spiderman and Superman acquired their abilities without merit. Batman, alone of the three, earned his stripes. But Forte has the best hands out of them all...
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 22, 2008 08:05PM)
No wonder Ricky Jay doesn't associate with other magicians...
Message: Posted by: Mano (Feb 22, 2008 08:06PM)
Well,

superman can tell you any card of the deck you choose even all of them,and you can even shuffle the deck and still he can do it, how about that?

peace.
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Feb 22, 2008 09:49PM)
I imagine Ricky Jay would also not be interested in having an intelligent internet discussion of who is better than who.

Responding to the original poster, I also think Forte is super duper but Batman has cooler enemies.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 22, 2008 09:52PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-22 22:49, rawdawg wrote:
I imagine Ricky Jay would also not be interested in having an intelligent internet discussion of who is better than who.

Responding to the original poster, I also think Forte is super duper but Batman has cooler enemies.
[/quote]

You're wrong about that. Ricky Jay relishes the opportunity to compare and contrast the greats of all time. It's something he's been doing his whole life.
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Feb 22, 2008 10:55PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-22 21:06, Mano wrote:
Well,

superman can tell you any card of the deck you choose even all of them,and you can even shuffle the deck and still he can do it, how about that?

peace.
[/quote]

True - but he cheats...

Then again, I guess Batman cheats too.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 22, 2008 11:02PM)
Comic books aside, Mr. O'malley, my fellow Canadian, do you feel that I am doing something wrong by preferring Ricky Jay to Steve Forte? I am greatly impressed by Steve's skill, but I just think Ricky Jay is a better card man. Why does this invoke such anger amongst my fellow practitioners?

curious, Fish
Message: Posted by: Hansen (Feb 22, 2008 11:22PM)
My 13-year-old cousin is better than Steve Forte!















At skateboarding!
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 22, 2008 11:40PM)
Wow... How so?
Message: Posted by: ASW (Feb 23, 2008 01:00AM)
I know Steve Forte. He's an excellent card man. I've also seen Ricky Jay perform live several times. He's an excellent card man. They're both up there with the best and I wouldn't rate one higher than the other.

This whole thread reminds me of the sequence in Woody Allen's Radio Days when he reminisces about his mother and father's pointless bickering:

Narrator: And then there were my father and mother... two people who could find an argument in any subject.

Father: Wait a minute! Are you telling me you think the Atlantic... is a greater ocean than the Pacific?

Mother: No, have it your way. The Pacific is greater.
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Feb 23, 2008 08:19AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-23 00:02, magicfish wrote:
Comic books aside, Mr. O'malley, my fellow Canadian, do you feel that I am doing something wrong by preferring Ricky Jay to Steve Forte? I am greatly impressed by Steve's skill, but I just think Ricky Jay is a better card man. Why does this invoke such anger amongst my fellow practitioners?

curious, Fish
[/quote]

Well, since you appeal to my Canuckedness and all...i don't think you're doing anything wrong. I just don't really know what the definitions and boundaries are for making a comparison like this - other than personal preference. I would say that from what I've seen, Ricky Jay is more entertaining on camera than Steve Forte...but then again, I've only ever seen Mr Forte doing things of an instructional nature, while Ricky Jay was doing a fully scripted stage show. I've never seen either of them do anything live & for me, that's the best way to get a feel for something of this nature.

Though they use the same tools and possibly share some techniques, their overall end goals are quite different - so it's almost like comparing apples to oranges.

I think we can all agree that they're both excellent at what they do and their videos get pirated a lot. So when they get re-released (have not heard about any of Ricky Jay's stuff), everyone should buy them.

And, unfortunately, comic books really do distract me just as you've seen here...
Message: Posted by: MagicKim (Feb 23, 2008 08:42AM)
I have seen Mr Forte's tapes and some "underground" videos of him as well. Don't know what else to call it, anyway, they are private videos or something. When it comes to the technical part of cheating with sleight of hand, I have never, ever, seen anything even close to his skills. Never seen him do any trick though unfortunately.

Ricky Jay is great with a deck of cards, he is a great performer but no-one, at least known to the public, can beat Steve Forte when it comes to technical skills at the card table.

My 2 cents,

Kim
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 23, 2008 09:58AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-23 09:19, T. Joseph O'Malley wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-23 00:02, magicfish wrote:
Comic books aside, Mr. O'malley, my fellow Canadian, do you feel that I am doing something wrong by preferring Ricky Jay to Steve Forte? I am greatly impressed by Steve's skill, but I just think Ricky Jay is a better card man. Why does this invoke such anger amongst my fellow practitioners?

curious, Fish
[/quote]

Well, since you appeal to my Canuckedness and all...i don't think you're doing anything wrong. I just don't really know what the definitions and boundaries are for making a comparison like this - other than personal preference. I would say that from what I've seen, Ricky Jay is more entertaining on camera than Steve Forte...but then again, I've only ever seen Mr Forte doing things of an instructional nature, while Ricky Jay was doing a fully scripted stage show. I've never seen either of them do anything live & for me, that's the best way to get a feel for something of this nature.

Though they use the same tools and possibly share some techniques, their overall end goals are quite different - so it's almost like comparing apples to oranges.

I think we can all agree that they're both excellent at what they do and their videos get pirated a lot. So when they get re-released (have not heard about any of Ricky Jay's stuff), everyone should buy them.

And, unfortunately, comic books really do distract me just as you've seen here...
[/quote]

Well said.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 23, 2008 10:18AM)
He is the best Cardsharp I have ever seen anyway.
Message: Posted by: h2o (Feb 23, 2008 10:23AM)
[quote] it's almost like comparing apples to oranges. [/quote]

That pretty much sum it up and should close an endless and useless discussion.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 23, 2008 12:57PM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX8JzWmYPvk
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Feb 23, 2008 02:30PM)
STEVE FORTE is good at showing his skills while the other are good at hide them.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 23, 2008 02:49PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-23 11:23, h2o wrote:
[quote] it's almost like comparing apples to oranges. [/quote]

That pretty much sum it up and should close an endless and useless discussion.
[/quote]

I'll have to disagree with you on that one. Taking time to notice what is distinct and different and what makes two of the greats so successful is far from "useless" . It's a petty more upstart magicians don't study these men.
FRaternally, Fish
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 23, 2008 04:03PM)
Good point. One wonders, as strange as this might sound coming from I who thinks Forte is great, if putting Steve Forte forward as the best dose harm to card magic, by causing young card guys to think that card magic is all about skill. Now Steve Forte is quite an entertaining guy but in my opinion he is not a model for a Magician. The emphasis for a Magician should surely be more on acting than skill at juggling cards.
Message: Posted by: Clock (Feb 23, 2008 05:16PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-21 12:56, walid ahumada wrote:
It is just a matter of taste, I think DARWIN ORTIZ works smoother.

walid
[/quote]

I just fell out of my chair.
Message: Posted by: ASW (Feb 23, 2008 06:12PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-23 18:16, Clock wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-21 12:56, walid ahumada wrote:
It is just a matter of taste, I think DARWIN ORTIZ works smoother.

walid
[/quote]

I just fell out of my chair.
[/quote]

Don't you mean "fell off my prayer rug"?
Message: Posted by: Clock (Feb 23, 2008 06:36PM)
Thanks for correcting me ASW, my spellcheck didn't pick that up...
Message: Posted by: Sean Macfarlane (Feb 23, 2008 11:20PM)
Peforming aside...when it comes down to chops and technique and just the way it is supposed to look. Steve is the man!!!

Sean
Message: Posted by: ASW (Feb 24, 2008 04:09AM)
Blah. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Blah-de-blah, blah, blah.

Blah.

Blah-blah, blah-de-blah.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Feb 24, 2008 04:57AM)
Lol . .
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 24, 2008 05:23AM)
Veto Freest is the equal of Steve Forte in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 24, 2008 09:15AM)
I also believe there are those who say Persi Diaconis is without equal.

Has anyone seen Steve Forte's centre-deal?
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Feb 24, 2008 01:39PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-23 09:42, MagicKim wrote:


Ricky Jay is great with a deck of cards, he is a great performer but no-one, at least known to the public, can beat Steve Forte when it comes to technical skills at the card table.

My 2 cents,

Kim
[/quote]Very well put!

That is the point Kim your last sentence says it all right there. Ricky is a performer. Even tho Forte can perform some magic he is not a really a magic performer that is not where his true strength lies It's his chops that are the best. You hit the nail right on the head!
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 24, 2008 02:56PM)
What Jay and Forte have in common, other than skill that makes them great is their encyclopaedic knowledge of their subjects. They know the history etc inside out.
Message: Posted by: Cohiba (Feb 24, 2008 09:03PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-22 03:40, Medifro wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-02-22 00:59, Cohiba wrote:
I bet Forte can kick Martin's butt.
[/quote]
What is this? Some sort of a game where card heroes fight together?

Personally, I never found it good to compare, especially when it comes to legends of card handling. Saying "Ortiz is better" or whatever, its like children who watched a super hero program, and fighting on Superman being better than Batman.

What I do know, that I aim to be better than them. :)

~ Feras
[/quote]

This was a sarcastic joke, referring to the 'who's dad is stronger' reference. The posts discussing comics picked up on this as well.

My apples to oranges comment still stands. Comparing these two is akin to comparing David Copperfield to Bill Malone. They're both great, but do entirely different things.
Message: Posted by: Hansen (Feb 24, 2008 11:04PM)
Oh come on, everyone knows oranges are far more delicious than apples!
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Feb 25, 2008 04:16AM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuLuiU2JvIA&feature=related
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Feb 25, 2008 04:31AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 00:04, Hansen wrote:
Oh come on, everyone knows oranges are far more delicious than apples!
[/quote]

The strange thing about the comparison (and I used it myself above) is that apples and oranges are probably more similar than they are dissimilar. They're both round, they're both sweet yet tart, they both grown on trees, they're both fruit, and they both hurt if you get hit in the head with them.
Message: Posted by: ASW (Feb 25, 2008 04:36AM)
This guy kicks everyone's ***...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSkbTuKTL_0&feature=related













At the blues harp...
Message: Posted by: Nick Wait (Feb 25, 2008 06:33AM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-21 14:57, Cain wrote:
Steve Forte vs. Ricky Jay vs. Martin Nash vs. Darwin Ortiz blah blah blah. After this maybe you guys could argue over which one of your dads would win in a fight, or better yet, if Guile could actually take Zangiff. Frankly, I never bought the whole "razor kick" idea (it's physically impossible).
[/quote]

my dad
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 25, 2008 09:35AM)
I think comparing and contrasting Bill Malone to David Copperfield would be a wonderful conversation. It would require sufficient knowledge and conversational skills by the participants, mind you, but it certainly would be a great topic for debate- two excellent magicians.
Sincerely, Magicfish
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Feb 25, 2008 09:54AM)
I would rather have a convesation comparing Steve forte to the masked magician.:rotf:
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 25, 2008 02:05PM)
I don't think that one would be quite as interesting- the masked magician isn't very good.
Message: Posted by: trickytrav (Feb 25, 2008 03:01PM)
The masked magician is actually Batman in disguise.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 25, 2008 04:02PM)
David Malek: What have you been telling your friends in magic about buying the book?

Steve Forte: First, with the book retailing for $200 a copy, which is a lot of money for a book, I've asked them to carefully look over the extended table of contentsto make sure they know exactly what they are buying.

Second, I've warned them not to expect the same kind of intricate, elaborate sleight of hand often seen in magic literature. They aren't going to find a dozens of different bottom deals, palm replacements, and multiple shifts. Moves are not the focus in this research. Casino Game Protection is not the written version of the Gambling Protection Video Series. This said, if your primary interest is sleight of hand, you'll find many ingenious, sophisticated techniques (at least in the minds of cheaters), which have never been tipped before. But, whereas many sleights have been taken from Expert at the Card Table and used in card tricks, I'm not sure you'll find the same level of cross over material in Casino Game Protection. It would probably surprise a lot of magicians, but many are more knowledgeable about gambling sleight-of-hand than the typical gamer (supervisor or surveillance operator). Techniques like the 'push-through' or 'Zarrow shuffle,' for example, are well known to magicians, but not always to gamers.

http://www.elmagicshop.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/Steve_Forte_Interview.html

I wonder how much crossover there as actually been from Forte to magic. Has he invented or shown any moves that magicians use in magic. I am sure there is.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 25, 2008 05:12PM)
No doubt Forte is a master of existing artifice- has he come up with much himself? not that that matters, I was just wondering.
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Feb 25, 2008 05:59PM)
[quote]
On 2008-02-25 15:05, magicfish wrote:
I don't think that one would be quite as interesting- the masked magician isn't very good.
[/quote]
the topic will not be about who's better magician. the topic will be about "exposing"
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 25, 2008 06:20PM)
Ah yes I see what you mean... Forte exposing the gamblers, and Valentino exposing the magicians... good point. Now that would be an interesting discussion.