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Topic: An idea for a trick!
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 1, 2012 05:19PM)
Hi all,

Here is an idea of mine - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEt0bBcWWJ4
What do you guys think?
It has been playing really well so far, and I like it because it is in their hands.

Best,

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Kyle Elder (Apr 1, 2012 06:03PM)
I give you props it's a nice routine.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Apr 1, 2012 07:01PM)
Nice! I like it. I love poker-themed routines.

My only advice would be to be careful of the angles when you're first counting the aces.
Message: Posted by: Vincero (Apr 1, 2012 07:32PM)
Kyle, it's a lovely idea. It needs a bit of refining though. The construction is nice, but I'll bet it can be made stronger. I know it's just a quick video, but FrenchDrop is right too. A smoother execution would be nice. Awesome plot though, I wouldn't mind playing with this one myself :).

Great work,

Zac
Message: Posted by: Robert M (Apr 1, 2012 08:25PM)
Nice presentation. Good card handling. Great job.

Robert
Message: Posted by: John Neely (Apr 2, 2012 12:35AM)
This is a very nice routine! You have a knack for putting together clear, simple plots which are relatively easy to execute. Keep it up!

I'm really liking the Card Shark magazine also. If you like card magic and haven't checked out Kyle's magazine, then you'll want to do so. He's on to something! Looking forward to the next issue!
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 2, 2012 05:49AM)
Thanks guys, I am going to play around with it.
Sorry for the bad ace counting, it was just a quick video that I shot. :)
I am not sure if I can make it even more magical without confusing it, but who knows?
Thanks for all the kind words, this may go in a little card booklet I am writing, not sure yet.

Thanks,

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Vincero (Apr 2, 2012 07:00AM)
Kyle,

No need to confuse it, the plot is great - don't alter it. There are just things that could be improved that's all. I don't know if the Strike Double is doing you any favours, for example. Again, I'd have to look at it closer, but I think from a structural perspective this could be improved too. Do you have "The Books of Wonder" at all? If so, revise the first few essays Tommy writes in volume one. It doesn't matter if they're relative to this effect or not (that's your call), but for a creative guy like yourself, I'm sure that you will benefit from them nevertheless.

If I get the time, I'll take a look at this effect in a bit more detail and offer you some more precise one to one feedback. It's good, but I think this one's worth trying to elevate to "great". To me, the basic plot accompanied with the spectator participation is an extremely attractive idea.

Zac
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 2, 2012 07:13AM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-02 07:00, Vincero wrote:
Kyle,

No need to confuse it, the plot is great - don't alter it. There are just things that could be improved that's all. I don't know if the Strike Double is doing you any favours, for example. Again, I'd have to look at it closer, but I think from a structural perspective this could be improved too. Do you have "The Books of Wonder" at all? If so, revise the first few essays Tommy writes in volume one. It doesn't matter if they're relative to this effect or not (that's your call), but for a creative guy like yourself, I'm sure that you will benefit from them nevertheless.

If I get the time, I'll take a look at this effect in a bit more detail and offer you some more precise one to one feedback. It's good, but I think this one's worth trying to elevate to "great". To me, the basic plot accompanied with the spectator participation is an extremely attractive idea.

Zac
[/quote]

Hey Zac,

The strike double is good for me, but I also sometimes use a Stud Double. No spectators seem to suspect anything when I use it, but I can see why you may be critical of it. What do you suggest instead of it? I have worked on the double push - off as well,
That book is on the wishlist!
I'd love some feedback please PM me if you can, that would be amazing, and then we can just give it that extra touch, awesome thanks!

Best,

Kyle
Message: Posted by: NFW (Apr 2, 2012 09:01AM)
Enjoyed that...
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 2, 2012 09:41AM)
Thanks!
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Apr 2, 2012 12:55PM)
Interesting, I'll be playing with your idea if I may!?!?!?

MMc
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 2, 2012 01:26PM)
Of course you may, I would be honored! :)
Tried this out again today, it went awesome!
Hopefully a keeper.
Message: Posted by: BrianMillerMagic (Apr 2, 2012 02:03PM)
I'm playing with this as well. I absolutely love it. I've got 5 close up shows this week, and you can bet I'll be road testing it, playing with the handling, and working out the kinks in the presentation. Great work Kyle.
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 2, 2012 02:15PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-02 14:03, BrianMillerMagic wrote:
I'm playing with this as well. I absolutely love it. I've got 5 close up shows this week, and you can bet I'll be road testing it, playing with the handling, and working out the kinks in the presentation. Great work Kyle.
[/quote]

Wow, thanks Brian! :)
Please tell me how it goes!
I am thinking of putting some of the routines that I have been posted on the Café' (maybe this one) plus some of the faves of mine that I perform into a little Ebook, PM me if you would be interested, just to get an idea.
Thanks again Brian!

Kyle :)
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 2, 2012 04:30PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-01 18:03, Kyle Elder wrote:
I give you props it's a nice routine.
[/quote]

Thanks Kyle!

From Kyle ;)
Message: Posted by: Vincero (Apr 2, 2012 04:38PM)
[/quote]
Hey Zac,

The strike double is good for me, but I also sometimes use a Stud Double. No spectators seem to suspect anything when I use it, but I can see why you may be critical of it. What do you suggest instead of it? I have worked on the double push - off as well,
That book is on the wishlist!
I'd love some feedback please PM me if you can, that would be amazing, and then we can just give it that extra touch, awesome thanks!

Best,

Kyle
[/quote]

You might be interested in a method of push-off Double Turnover that I've devised myself. I'm actually out of cards at the moment, but I may have a used deck somewhere to play around with. If I do, I'll PM you a video of what the Double looks like. I've written up the rough explanation too. I was eventually going to get around to refining this, but other things have taken a priority at the moment. Again, I'll try to have a look at the video later and PM you with some feedback :).

Zac
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 2, 2012 04:39PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-02 16:38, Vincero wrote:
[/quote]

Hey Zac,

The strike double is good for me, but I also sometimes use a Stud Double. No spectators seem to suspect anything when I use it, but I can see why you may be critical of it. What do you suggest instead of it? I have worked on the double push - off as well,
That book is on the wishlist!
I'd love some feedback please PM me if you can, that would be amazing, and then we can just give it that extra touch, awesome thanks!

Best,

Kyle
[/quote]

You might be interested in a method of push-off Double Turnover that I've devised myself. I'm actually out of cards at the moment, but I may have a used deck somewhere to play around with. If I do, I'll PM you a video of what the Double looks like. I've written up the rough explanation too. I was eventually going to get around to refining this, but other things have taken a priority at the moment. Again, I'll try to have a look at the video later and PM you with some feedback :).

Zac
[/quote]

Thanks Zac on both accounts! :)
I have actually made my Strike Double MUCH better thanks to the awesome Brian Miller's help, but I would love to know several DLs!

Thanks,

kyle
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Apr 2, 2012 04:52PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-02 16:38, Vincero wrote:
You might be interested in a method of push-off Double Turnover that I've devised myself. I'm actually out of cards at the moment, but I may have a used deck somewhere to play around with. If I do, I'll PM you a video of what the Double looks like. I've written up the rough explanation too. I was eventually going to get around to refining this, but other things have taken a priority at the moment. Again, I'll try to have a look at the video later and PM you with some feedback :).[/quote]
Zac, I'd be very interested in your DT method, too, if you'd be willing to PM me as well. I think I have a decent turnover, but I'd like to have a great one, so I'm always looking at other methods that might work for me.
Message: Posted by: Engali (Apr 2, 2012 05:06PM)
It's a good idea, but one that has been done in a more coherent routine with better handling in Jack Carpenter's South Street Swindle, his version of Wiles' Reswindled.
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 2, 2012 05:35PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-02 17:06, Engali wrote:
It's a good idea, but one that has been done in a more coherent routine with better handling in Jack Carpenter's South Street Swindle, his version of Wiles' Reswindled.
[/quote]

I will have to look that one up now, thanks!
EDIT: Just looked it up, it is a great routine! I am definitely going to use it.
However, I think our routines are different - mine is a smaller, more - in the hands one, so I may even do both routines?
Here is Mr. Carpenter's AMAZING routine BTW for people wanting to compare - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E73seeVHLT8

Best,

Kyle
Message: Posted by: truesoldier (Apr 2, 2012 07:09PM)
Hi Kyle

I think that the two routines are different enough to be considered different trick (Albeit with similar themes)

I really like your routine, it's very direct, very clear and straight forward. Best of all as you say it can be done in the hands. I think you are definitely onto something here and I thoroughly encourage you to get the handling and sleights smoother.

Great stuff indeed.
Message: Posted by: truesoldier (Apr 2, 2012 07:10PM)
Hi Kyle

I think that the two routines are different enough to be considered different tricks (Albeit with similar themes)

I really like your routine, it's very direct, very clear and straight forward. Best of all as you say it can be done in the hands. I think you are definitely onto something here and I thoroughly encourage you to get the handling and sleights smoother.

The strike DL is a good slight, just try to relax on it a bit more and not stick your finger out so much and so slow (Don't make a move out of it and try to keep your finger relaxed so that it doesn't look so stiff)

Additional tips, try slightly bevelling the deck to your right and turning it a little towards yourself, both of these points will make it easier and more natural looking when you carry out the slight.

You Have A Great Routine Here. Well Done
Message: Posted by: Breather (Apr 2, 2012 07:37PM)
Check out Econ's Spades trick.

The Carpenter effect is spot on.
Message: Posted by: BrianMillerMagic (Apr 2, 2012 07:48PM)
For those of you discussing the Strike Double, I shot this quick video for Kyle earlier this afternoon right before I had to run out to, ironically, teach magic lessons to some private students. Hopefully it will help others as well. You'll see everything truesoldier is talking about.

http://youtu.be/M7ONlsnuVLM
Message: Posted by: Breather (Apr 2, 2012 08:03PM)
Im not a big fan of the strike double personally; there are methods that look more natural IMO.
Message: Posted by: BrianMillerMagic (Apr 2, 2012 08:05PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-02 20:03, Breather wrote:
Im not a big fan of the strike double personally; there are methods that look more natural IMO.
[/quote]

"Natural" is a subjective term, as has been discussed many times. It's relative to the performer and how they move/act. For me, the strike double is one of two doubles that I use regularly. No get ready, almost no movement whatsoever. Can be done with a very soft feel. Works well for me.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Apr 2, 2012 08:05PM)
I tend to start the strike with just my index finger, but with the middle finger hanging down next to it, relaxed. As soon as the index has made the lift, the middle finger comes in to the gap to grip alongside the index finger. I think the most important bit of the strike advice given here is to have your hands very relaxed and to do the turnover like it's not a move.
Message: Posted by: Breather (Apr 2, 2012 08:09PM)
Absolutely, whatever works well for you. For me though, even when I see it done well, there is something about it which "tells", in the sense it doesn't replicate the genuine turning of a single card as well as some other methods. Each to their own though.
Message: Posted by: BrianMillerMagic (Apr 2, 2012 08:14PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-02 20:09, Breather wrote:
there is something about it which "tells", in the sense it doesn't replicate the genuine turning of a single card as well as some other methods. Each to their own though.
[/quote]

That's just the point though - What is "genuine turning of a single card"? There's not a single universally accepted way that people turn over a single card. Insofar as it is consistent with your own turning over of a single card, it's "natural". Anyway, let's not get this thread too far off track.

Back to discuss Kyle's great idea for a trick!
Message: Posted by: Breather (Apr 2, 2012 08:19PM)
The difference between a good and bad double is how easy it is to be detected - the less contrived it looks, the better. Lets agree to disagree.
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Apr 2, 2012 08:37PM)
I dig the trick.

I think the structure needs to be reworked (you demonstrate how to steal the card back BEFORE demonstrating how to get it there) but the ending is nifty.

Agree there are better doubles, but that's not what this thread is for.

Ben
Message: Posted by: MuscleMagic (Apr 2, 2012 09:50PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-01 17:19, KyleMacNeill wrote:
Hi all,

Here is an idea of mine - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEt0bBcWWJ4
What do you guys think?
It has been playing really well so far, and I like it because it is in their hands.

Best,

Kyle
[/quote]very nice that palm you did was one of the better ones I saw
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Apr 2, 2012 09:52PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-02 21:50, MuscleMagic wrote:
very nice that palm you did was one of the better ones I saw
[/quote]
+1 -- it was like the card wasn't even there! :D
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 3, 2012 04:18AM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-02 21:52, FrenchDrop wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-04-02 21:50, MuscleMagic wrote:
very nice that palm you did was one of the better ones I saw
[/quote]
+1 -- it was like the card wasn't even there! :D
[/quote]

Haha, LOL! :)
Thanks Ben for the kind words!
I will see if there is any tampering to be done with it, to help that.
Thanks again Brian also, my DL is looking much better. I had an alternate handling to this trick with a bit more magic in that you guys may dig, I will film a video later today. It may over - complicate things, or not...

I've been having lots of fun with this, and I am glad you guys dig it!

Best,

Kyle
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 3, 2012 05:16AM)
Also thanks "truesoldier" for tips and advice :)
Message: Posted by: Vincero (Apr 3, 2012 06:09AM)
Brian, the Strike Double looks awesome in your hands. Anyone choosing to use it should study his style, it is spot on. I have recorded a quick video and explanation of my push-off technique. I've just got to compress the video and upload it... then Frenchdrop and Kyle can have it. I don't think I'll release this to anyone else, for a few reasons. In hindsight I should have just PM'd my original response to Kyle. As Ben noted, the Double Lift is not really the effect's main fault. He's analysed the effect properly and raised the structural issue I had in mind. I was reserving the majority of my work for private purposes, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to give something back to Kyle. He's young and I think that people often succumb to a kind of prejudice because of it. Still, the work he's producing is, in my opinion, very impressive. I've championed it from the moment I met my acquaintance with it. Not many people offer up their work for genuine criticism around here and I'm no exception. Plus, when he does get criticised he takes it like a gentleman.

Zac
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 3, 2012 08:04AM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-03 06:09, Vincero wrote:
Brian, the Strike Double looks awesome in your hands. Anyone choosing to use it should study his style, it is spot on. I have recorded a quick video and explanation of my push-off technique. I've just got to compress the video and upload it... then Frenchdrop and Kyle can have it. I don't think I'll release this to anyone else, for a few reasons. In hindsight I should have just PM'd my original response to Kyle. As Ben noted, the Double Lift is not really the effect's main fault. He's analysed the effect properly and raised the structural issue I had in mind. I was reserving the majority of my work for private purposes, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to give something back to Kyle. He's young and I think that people often succumb to a kind of prejudice because of it. Still, the work he's producing is, in my opinion, very impressive. I've championed it from the moment I met my acquaintance with it. Not many people offer up their work for genuine criticism around here and I'm no exception. Plus, when he does get criticised he takes it like a gentleman.

Zac
[/quote]

Brian's double is indeed brilliant, and the tips that he has given me is already to starting to help a lot. No worries about not PM'ing your response, I really look forward to seeing your double lift, and I am sure it will help lots too. You have indeed always been really supportive and helpful when looking at my work, and thanks for the very kind words, I do hope I take the criticism well, and love to see what ideas people come up with to improve my effects.

So on the note of improving effects, I have shot a video of an alternate take on the effect. I have tried to work on my hit doubles and remove the 'outstretched finger', so hopefully that is already starting to be eliminated. I have added an extra kicker, improved the patter/presentation a little (even adding a Star Wars reference!! ;) ) and tried to improve my starting count, thanks to that suggestion from FrenchDrop. And I have used the less conspicous 10S as the lucky card (Thanks John Neely!) So, since its a quick video, my handling is far from perfect, but which effect do you guys prefer? This one, or the original one? Thanks in advance.

Here's the new version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhxToODMRWo&feature=youtu.be

Best,

Kyle
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 3, 2012 09:43AM)
Any thoughts? :)
Message: Posted by: John Neely (Apr 3, 2012 10:14AM)
I love the last line! :) "Your certainly learning well..." What ever you do don't loose that! :) I love your creativity! I'll PM you some of my thoughts on the new handling.
Message: Posted by: truesoldier (Apr 3, 2012 11:06AM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-02 20:05, BrianMillerMagic wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-04-02 20:03, Breather wrote:
Im not a big fan of the strike double personally; there are methods that look more natural IMO.
[/quote]

"Natural" is a subjective term, as has been discussed many times. It's relative to the performer and how they move/act. For me, the strike double is one of two doubles that I use regularly. No get ready, almost no movement whatsoever. Can be done with a very soft feel. Works well for me.
[/quote]

I agree totally with the above statement. Also remember to make all your non slight moves look the same. E.G Turn every card over in a similar fashion even when you are not doing a Strike DL.

Also, Brian's video demo is a great reference for anyone needing help with the Strike DL, Watch it over and over until you understand it.
Message: Posted by: truesoldier (Apr 3, 2012 11:10AM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-03 09:43, KyleMacNeill wrote:
Any thoughts? :)
[/quote]

Kyle, That's much nicer / smoother. Your Strike is looking so much better and your presentation is already a lot smoother. Well done and keep up the great work. I am sure you will progress really fast as you are definitely listening to the advise being given.
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 3, 2012 11:22AM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-03 11:10, truesoldier wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-04-03 09:43, KyleMacNeill wrote:
Any thoughts? :)
[/quote]

Kyle, That's much nicer / smoother. Your Strike is looking so much better and your presentation is already a lot smoother. Well done and keep up the great work. I am sure you will progress really fast as you are definitely listening to the advise being given.
[/quote]

Thanks! :)
This trick seems to be at a nice stage now, I like how it is is really in their hands.
So which version do you guys prefer - the first or the newest?

Thanks,

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Apr 3, 2012 12:05PM)
Well, since people are giving examples of Double Turnovers, here's the one I use almost all the time: [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGuovtkGFWM]It even fooled Charlie Miller![/url] Please remember that there is no context here...it actually looks quite casual when done in context.

SEY
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 3, 2012 12:09PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-03 12:05, Steven Youell wrote:
Well, since people are giving examples of Double Turnovers, here's the one I use almost all the time: [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGuovtkGFWM]It even fooled Charlie Miller![/url] Please remember that there is no context here...it actually looks quite casual when done in context.

SEY
[/quote]

Looks great!
Message: Posted by: KyleMacNeill (Apr 3, 2012 12:27PM)
Hey guys, looks like I will be staying with the first version, with the better patter, 10 as the lucky card and improved DL :)
Play around with it if you like, and it will probably appear in an upcoming booklet :)

Best,

Kyle