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Topic: Magic Master Summit
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jul 13, 2016 12:17PM)
I don't think this event (Magic Master Summit) has been mentioned yet in the Tricky Business area. It fits right in with our interests.

It's next week (July 18-22). The live event will be free (you can watch certain videos of certain presenters on certain dates), but I'm sure they will be selling DVD sets afterwards.


I heard about it through discussions on Facebook, and because some friends told me about it via email.

I've been registered for a few months now.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Jul 13, 2016 06:46PM)
I am registered too! Interesting that it will compete with the Republican Convention and another Donald! More importantly it competes with my busy summer schedule. However, I wish them success and hope to pop in.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Jul 13, 2016 10:38PM)
J.C. Sum sent an email to those on his list. I got to watch a preview of Bill Gladwell talking about 2 walling. It is great and very informative. If the others is as good as this one, there is not way anyone should miss any of them. Thirty performers will be discussing various forms of magic topics.

That is if you intend to market shows for profit.
Message: Posted by: DaveWomach (Jul 14, 2016 05:30AM)
Thanks for the posts! As the producer of the event, I hate to realize that I've timed it on such a big election event, but I hope the 24 hour access to each day's schedule will be really beneficial. If anyone has any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me! David@MagicMasterSummit.com

Enjoy!
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 14, 2016 07:43AM)
I hope this works out well for you and the contributors/participants. If magicians approach this right and are willing to invest, this could be a great assistance in their performing and business operations.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jul 18, 2016 11:09AM)
This online event started today.

As was said above, the interview with Bill Gladwell was exceptional.

That's the first one I've watched so far.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jul 18, 2016 05:41PM)
This is a gold mine of information. I'm trying to get them all in today...

Yes Bill goes over the real deal about 2-walling and 4-walling and how to market a show in a tourist center. What's great about Bill is he totally admitted that he had NO SHOW when he got the job in Gatlinburg... he literally threw the show together in a couple weeks and he got that show up in the top 5 on trip advisor in a few months.

I just finished Rick Thomas, WOW what an inspiration.
Message: Posted by: DaveWomach (Jul 20, 2016 12:22PM)
Thanks for all the great feedback guys! The convention is still going, in Day 3 now! The event ends in a couple days!
Message: Posted by: tommeepickles (Jul 20, 2016 07:41PM)
Kid shows was great, 2 walling was great, I would say that 90% is great. First 26 minutes of How to get a HUGE fanbase seems just like a huge infomercial, it made me feel icky.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jul 20, 2016 09:37PM)
I was able to see some of the ones I wanted to see however it is very aggravating that you are only allowed to see each video for one day only
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 20, 2016 09:53PM)
That's why you have to pay
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jul 20, 2016 10:14PM)
I appreciate having access to free samples, even though it's only for a limited time. And I think it's great that Dave is over-delivering, giving a nice selection of speakers to watch each day (30+ different videos spread over the 5 days). I'm pretty sure that Dave made it clear earlier on that you could only watch certain videos for a free, for a 24 hour period (so it's not like he mislead people).

I was able to watch 3 on Monday, and 3 on Tuesday. And I'm working on my second one for Wednesday.

If you want access to all of the videos at any time --

https://magicmastersummit.com/purchase

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 20, 2016 10:56PM)
[quote]On Jul 20, 2016, Donald Dunphy wrote:
I appreciate having access to free samples, even though it's only for a limited time...giving a nice selection of speakers to watch each day (30+ different videos spread over the 5 days). I'm pretty sure that Dave made it clear earlier on that you could only watch certain videos for a free, for a 24 hour period (so it's not like he mislead people). [/quote]

Yes, that is the busienss model for these types of things. The idea is to sell the purchase access and at the end there will likely be a permanent full package access option. I'm surprised that with all of the information marketing Tim purports to know, that he didn't know this.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jul 21, 2016 10:20AM)
I'm simply expressing I don't care for the bait and switch tactic. Maybe it was clearly explained on the front end but my attention was more focused on the free part.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 21, 2016 10:43AM)
Your attention was more focused on the free part. Gee I wonder if sales people will pick up on this and use it somehow?

To call it a bait and switch tactic is very harsh. I don't think you know what bait and switch actually is. First off it is punishable. So to accuse people of that is pretty serious and if I were you I would think of an apology. You were WAY out of line man.

I have nothing to do with any of this and don't even know the people involved, but because you don't get enough free stuff you cry foul. Well pony up money. THEN if they don't give you what they are claiming you can say bait and switch.

What is aggrevating is people who feel entitled to information for free. As if Dave has no expenses. That he put out samples at all is amazing.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jul 21, 2016 10:53AM)
I only expressed my opinion about my experience. Oftentimes creators of products are interested in feedback from clients and/or potential clients. I shared my feedback. If David DaVinci is interested in feedback I have now shared mine.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jul 21, 2016 11:03AM)
I registered for the Magic Master Summit back on May 4th. In the very first email I received that day, David explained that videos would only be available "for free" for a 24 hour period.

Here's a partial quote from that very first email that he sent:

[quote]...The Magic Master Summit is a free, online event that will run Monday, July 18 through Friday, July 22nd. New video talks and interviews will be released DAILY – and you can watch from any computer or mobile device that supports video.

To see the presentation schedule, click here:
http://magicmastersummit.com/schedule

Each day of the Summit, you’ll get an email invitation with a link to watch the FREE talks & interviews for that day. The free presentations will be available from 9AM EST until 8:59AM EST the following day, when the NEW daily presentations are released.

Once the Summit begins, we'll email you a link with where to watch the presentations.

(Don’t forget to clear your browser history each day, so you can see the NEW presentations that have been released.)

3. How to get instant access to all the expert talks—to watch at your leisure.

Want to watch all the video interviews and talks, but can’t make it every day?

No problem! We’re working hard on making the entire Magic Master Summit available for purchase, so you can enjoy INSTANT, permanent access to all 30+ video presentations to watch at your leisure.

Reasons to purchase include:
• Watch the entire Summit at your own pace.
• Never miss a single talk due to scheduling conflicts.
• Skip ahead to watch talks that most interest you.
• Replay your favorite talks again the future.
• Listen to the audio MP3s in the car or while you work out or drive to your next gig.
• Download, print & save the transcripts for future reference.
To learn more and purchase the Magic Master Summit digital recordings, stay tuned (we're still getting everything ready)... [/quote]

So, no bait and switch. The offer was clear from the start, specifically telling us how much access we'd have for free.

Just because someone glossed over that email, or had different expectations, doesn't mean that is good feedback.

- Donald

P.S. This is also the same email where he told you how to download the free bonus files. So, he gave free bonus files for you to keep, as well as free access to listen to some great speakers. The way I look at it -- I have absolutely nothing to complain about, and lots to be thankful for!!!!
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jul 21, 2016 11:17AM)
There was one presentation I wanted to see. I did not realize we only got one day to view each video, I get lots of emails everyday as I'm sure many of us do, so I only skimmed the email from the Summit. I do not recall the part about how you only get 24 hours to see each video being in bold anywhere in any of the emails, maybe it was, I cannot recall.

I missed the one presentation I wanted to see. Now I am left feeling penalized and having to pay for the whole course to get to see it. Will I do that? Not likely.

In my opinion, the best marketing results in a transaction is where the customer cheerfully pays for the product. There are many businesses that are set up so the customer feels penalized when they have to pay, and maybe these types of businesses do well, but it is not how I choose to do business.

I will add I did view one of the other presentations that I wanted to see and it was excellent, I am grateful that I got to see one.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jul 21, 2016 11:31AM)
I've looked at this event as though it were a online magic convention. What happens at a magic convention if you miss a lecture (because you weren't paying attention to some detail like a schedule, which you had access to)? Well, you miss the lecture. It's not really the convention organizer's fault.

Also, in my opinion, if you were only interested in one or two of the presenters, you are missing out on lots of opportunities to learn.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 21, 2016 11:47AM)
To me this is funny as Tim has done nothing but steer many threads to that of information marketing and those "great gurus" he's studied and prefers to listen to than anyone here (who only have much more experience in the exact field this forum is about). Yet this comes along, which is a very common practice these days with selling information (I first talked about being part of several of these two or three years ago) and he yells foul.

Do you really think a promoter would spend the time, effort, and expense to gather over thirty "experts" or better term would be guests, to conduct full 90 -120 interviews and offer all of the contents for free? C'mon, really? It's a marketing tactic and format.

To me this is just another example of the young and naive who are complaining because once again, they are referring and taking about something they know little or nothing about.

To expect someone who works daily in the business as the host/promoter does working cruise ships internationally, to spend thousands of dollars weeks or months of work to offer it all free? Have you never heard the saying "if it sounds too good to be true...". There was no misleading, no scam or fraud, simply the latest method of packaging and selling information. Again, it's knowing the business from the inside, not just the way it appears on the outside. It is EXACTLY the same as entertainment. Do you think (name a band or artist) calls up the local concert hall and says book me to perform? No, a promoter rents the venue, they then book the artist, finds sponsorships, starts marketing, press and promotion, sells tickets, at the event charges for parking, concessions, etc. All for one purpose, to make money! It's a business venture. That's what a promoter does, and that's exactly what the promoter has done here for this offering. To think this info was free for the taking is just as ridiculous as thinking the Rolling Stones would play venue or tour for free.

I believe the term "holier than thou" was used somewhere here recently, this is another example of understanding the difference of when someone is still in the learning phase as opposed to trying to be offering advice and information on something relatively new and unknown to them.

Also, you don't see others complaining. They seem to understand the offering just fine. THIS is what drives people away from here is the novice, uninformed and uneducated offering thoughts and opinions as fact when they clearly do not know the topic being presented. The term almost always refer to when asking why many pros no longer come or participate here is "the know-it-all" kids (novices) that offer incorrect ad misleading advice when in reality they don't know what they're talking about. Glad I could educate you and clear this up. There is no bait and switch (again, learn what you're talking about before slinging accusations), scam or fraud here in any way.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jul 21, 2016 12:16PM)
I do not recall the schedule ever being published, rather it was the list of speakers. It would have helped if the schedule had been published then I could have known when the key presentations were that I wanted to see. Maybe it was and I just didn't see it.

Then I might have been able to see them, and as a result purchased the program so I could have gone back and watched them again.

Another good to way to have done it would have been to only make certain presentations for free, or make certain ones preview only, then pay for the full program. It is a worthy point for us all the acknowledge - there are different ways it could have been rolled out, each way has it's advantages and disadvantages.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jul 21, 2016 12:20PM)
BTW, I know a few people who have already paid for the VIP Instant Access / Full Access package, and the "free" series isn't even done yet. They just see the value in it.

I'll likely buy the VIP Instant Access / Full Access package at some point, when it works a bit better for my budget. I'll admit that it's my fault I don't have the money for it just now. Not his fault for trying to sell it to me. :)

- Donald

P.S. As per my quote of the first email you get from Magic Master Summit, there is a link to the schedule. So, it's there from the beginning, too. He also shared the link (again) in follow up emails. You really should go back and read those emails.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jul 21, 2016 12:29PM)
I just checked through some other emails. In a July 9 email from David, he put the schedule right in the email. No need to even click a link.

But links were in several of the other emails, including the very first email.

I kind of get the sense that you just deleted the emails after quickly glossing them over.

- Donald

P.S. Reza's video was excellent. It's the first one I've watched today.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 21, 2016 12:40PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2016, Tim Friday wrote:
Another good to way to have done it would have been to only make certain presentations for free, or make certain ones preview only, then pay for the full program. It is a worthy point for us all the acknowledge - there are different ways it could have been rolled out, each way has it's advantages and disadvantages. [/quote]

This is another example of understanding and respecting someone's business model, rather than only seeing it through your eyes and how it would best appeals to you. We see this all the time here with performers perceptions towards prospects and clients. Look at it as a sample or tease and if you want more or the whole thing, great $197 please. For someone that may not know much of this material that would be a bargain at triple the price. One must invest in their profession and invest in their success. If these guys and their topics are of interest to you and your business plan/model, pay the what $7 per interview (average, and no, they're not available individually, again that is not the business model here) and open your mind and learn. If not, that's okay too, it's not for you, bit there's no need to make accusations and complain.

They even offered Bill's feature in advance for free for several days if not closer to a week. For some like tommiepickles it might have been great and of value, to me there was nothing there I haven't know for years and I thought it was incomplete and could have gone deeper on more important aspects rather than he did. Again, these are also to sell each of their individual products and courses as well to get all/the rest of the info too. I'm sure many are finding value in it.
Message: Posted by: barts185 (Jul 21, 2016 01:54PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2016, Donald Dunphy wrote:
I just checked through some other emails. In a July 9 email from David, he put the schedule right in the email. No need to even click a link.

But links were in several of the other emails, including the very first email.

[/quote]


And it was even IN BOLD!

Reading comprehension is hard! :)
Message: Posted by: MJE (Jul 21, 2016 03:26PM)
I've looked at some of it. Not much, so I can't objectively review it. I can only review what I've seen. There seems to be some good information, but it does also seem generally to be a week-long ad for Brad Ross information products. I saw the one with Sean, which was very good. He wasn't selling anything, and he's a really good guy. Three "lectures," however, have been Ross ads so far. I'm sure his are good products and that he is a talented performer. I'm just not sure why people would actually pay to watch these ads.

The other I tried to get through was a very long commercial selling a way to spam your audience with text messages. Yow..... Is this the wave of the future? Let's hope not.

I only saw a short bit of the Robert Stephens conversation and wish I had the time for the whole thing. It looks great so far, but I don't know if he turns half of it into a commercial (I rather doubt that he does). There may be others that are of value (I may have just picked the wrong ones), but so far it looks like an enormous pitch. But then, I always enjoy dealer shows at conventions.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jul 21, 2016 09:39PM)
Shawn Farquhar's talk on "Making Magic More Memorable" was the best of the talks I've seen so far (a couple of days ago). I've known Shawn for years, and I've spent time with him. (I even bought a stage illusion from him once.) But I'm always learning more from him.

He talked about being memorable / genuine / personable / friendly / sharing yourself, great points about mentoring, working well with tech people, etc. More than connecting with an audience... connecting with people in general. He talked about a giveaway item he uses in his show (and to only one child). He also shared some really great info about his style of BOR -- how he created his DVD, what he says when he sells it and why, etc. I want to create my own DVD in the future (not an instant author one), so I was really interested in what Shawn shared on that topic. Lots of examples to back up his points of view about the various topics he touched on. He talked about kids shows as well as cruise ships and corporate. Shawn even talked about show costumes at one point.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: barts185 (Jul 21, 2016 11:42PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2016, MJE wrote:
I've looked at some of it. Not much, so I can't objectively review it. I can only review what I've seen. There seems to be some good information, but it does also seem generally to be a week-long ad for Brad Ross information products. I saw the one with Sean, which was very good. He wasn't selling anything, and he's a really good guy. Three "lectures," however, have been Ross ads so far. I'm sure his are good products and that he is a talented performer. I'm just not sure why people would actually pay to watch these ads.

The other I tried to get through was a very long commercial selling a way to spam your audience with text messages. Yow..... Is this the wave of the future? Let's hope not.

I only saw a short bit of the Robert Stephens conversation and wish I had the time for the whole thing. It looks great so far, but I don't know if he turns half of it into a commercial (I rather doubt that he does). There may be others that are of value (I may have just picked the wrong ones), but so far it looks like an enormous pitch. But then, I always enjoy dealer shows at conventions. [/quote]


For someone that doesn't want to watch ads, it seems odd that you chose ones which were very likely to be ads. Did you think that there wasn't going to be any attempt to generate revenue other than selling the set of videos which were free for 24 hours?

I was actually concerned that they all (or the vast majority) were going to be upsell videos - and while some are, there are plenty which aren't and are just interviews with no selling at all.

I also really liked Shawn Farquhar'a talk. Brad Ross and David Farr do actually give away a system which they supposedly sell for $197, so even they aren't JUST selling (although there's little doubt you'll receive pitches for things).


While there is a podcast like quality to these, that's to be expected (or at least I expected it) in that if you JUST wanted to say, "Okay, give me the tips that are interspersed throughout this hour long video - I don't care about your background, or history, or stories, or anything - JUST GIVE ME THE ADVICE - and don't sell me anything!!!", they would would be 5 minutes long but not as enjoyable.
Message: Posted by: DaveWomach (Jul 22, 2016 06:45AM)
Thanks for the feedback guys.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jul 23, 2016 08:12AM)
The summit was a lot of fun. The Brad Ross presentations were sales presentations for his courses. That's a shame... In my opinion it makes him look way more unprofessional and desperate.

Josh Knotts gave awesome info on fairs and festivals, Chris and Neal give great advice on dominating a kid show market in a region, Tim Clothier was awesome to hear speak on advice about working on custom illusions, Wacky Chad went into detail on street performing, and Dave himself talked about cruise ships. My favorites were Rick Thomas (just inspiring to me), and Bill Gladwell.

Great resource And it really gets your mind working.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 23, 2016 08:47PM)
I think David did a great job, as having done these events before I know how much work and coordination it takes to execute one of these. I agree with the Brad Ross sentiments. I completely understand he is in the magic information business, but it would be nice for once to see him offer some goods with no strings attached - expecting nothing but supporting the audience he targets without all of the infomarketer components. Kind of a "thank you" for his current customers, perhaps an influencer for those that are not yet customers of his but are well aware of his offerings, and as a way to "truly give back" as many say they do.

While the lineup was quite interesting, I think there were a couple of key components missing. So many of the guests seemed to be for those already workers, who may be looking to advance or explore another or other specific ideas and niches. What was greatly missing was the foundational elements of creating, establishing and operating an entertainment business.

So much emphasis was on topics for performers of a certain level only - book more shows, double your income, get higher priced shows, getting better shows, negotiating higher prices, make six figures, and so on. Almost every one of these topics is based on someone already having a properly functional and operating entertainment business.

However, many that are currently doing shows at this level and even more so those looking to start performing for money, those performing part-time looking to go full-time or those that are currently either part or full-time that are struggling to get shows, struggling to build and establish clients, credibility, and positioning - they need and are seeking more basic and core information and systems of entertainment business operations. Structure, assistance and core elements.

Most are aware that a good show is needed, then they mistakenly think all they need to then do is start marketing for bookings. However, as I have regularly shared here, there is the entire majority segment between the two where you properly create the foundational decisions and elements, create their business and marketing plans and goals, addressing all of the major foundational questions and decisions that without doing properly will only allow them to build their business on a wobbly, unstable foundation. Then of course is creating the business operational system that allows you to sell, market and present your show, create and focus on the 5 types of bookings all entertainers should be pursuing, and of course create the systems to allow for a much higher closing and conversion rate rather than the typical 15-20% obtained by most performers.

Success in entertainment is created in the business behind the performance. While the "business" was discussed in relation to certain niche or individual areas (2/4 walling, fairs & fests, kids business, etc.) all of those would be much more effective and in a proper logical order AFTER the business foundational aspects were are presented, addressed, explained and in place.

I think that could have tied many of the other presenters together rather than having what seemed at times more like a variety of unrelated guests and topics participating together. Murray was good on publicity, but again, many may not have been close to that point as they were more still in the starting blocks area. Again, for workers or pros many of these topics and guests were more beneficial.

Also although it was said to be for mentalists, hypnotists, and other variety performers, it really wasn't. It was primarily for magicians. It was created and positioned towards magicians and magician's thinking.

Again, just a few thoughts from a perspective other than just a magician. Still, great job, and the final lifetime offer is really a great value whether you are at the point of these yet or not. With lifetime access, hopefully many will be at some point in the future. Congratulations David!
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Jul 24, 2016 12:00PM)
I really did not see much in the way of description for any of the lectures. "How to make six figure income doing X" really does not provide insight on the content. While there is a lot of content for the asking price, I am not sure how relevant the intent is for my specific purposes. The few comments several have posted here is all that I have read about the reviews or content. I now I missed the free video week, but is there something more I am missing?
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jul 24, 2016 03:13PM)
Charlie,
I only saw a few of the videos, Bill Gladwell, the one about text messaging, and the one about strolling close-up magic at restaurants. It was good information, there were some pearls in parts of the some of the videos, and some were more of an overview/introduction which is what the timeframe allowed.

I will say this, Coaching (depending on the coach) or a course is the best way to learn because it will dive deep into growing your business, videos such as these with the Summit is a good way to learn especially if you are interested in some of the topics, In that sense, I wish you had been able to at least watch some of the videos.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 24, 2016 05:02PM)
[quote]On Jul 24, 2016, Tim Friday wrote:

I will say this, these videos on the Summit are a much better place to learn than the magic Café...but the magic Café is by far the worst way to learn. [/quote]


Interesting opinion. Not true, but interesting. While no one ever said the Café was a learning device, there is much than can be learned and taken form here. However learning is based on attitude, openness to receive and accept information and a positiveness to initiate others to want to help, teach or assist you. You talk far too definitive, stern and for someone who is still in the initial learning stages themselves. That doesn't make the source or vehicle (the Café) by any means "the worst way to learn." Again, another of your personal slams on us here and this place, yet you still keep coming here?

Many of us do use the methods and techniques like those you are referring to in the summit for our coaching and teachings.

As I've said before, you don't seem to want to heed anything from those here. So it seems you are the one that is making this the "worst way to learn" because of your approach and attitude towards it and us here.

Again, with the stern criticism based only on your opinion and certainly not fact. So many have stated otherwise to what they have taken from the Café, this forum and those participating here in the community.

Again, so why do you make these unsupportive, opinionated claims when you could be taking in so much more by heeding the advice from your participation here? I've asked this before and you chose not to answer this.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 24, 2016 05:23PM)
It is tough to learn when all you want to do is tell everyone what you know. Learning is generally done with the mouth closed and ears open. Rarely happens here.

If you went at these videos, or any other method of learning the same way you came here you would not benefit at all. The benefit of these videos is you can't talk back.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jul 24, 2016 05:57PM)
The Café is a place for discussion, not a place to learn.

Like Eugene Burger said "Whoever is the loudmouth on online forums has the status of Dai Vernon." They don't have to prove their credibility, anyone can log on with any code name that hides who they really are, but because they make posts with a dismissive, authoritative, condescending tone they are perceived as knowledgable and high status on the Café.

The reason the Magic Summit is so much better for learning than the Café has much to do with credibility. It was produced by an active performer, David DaVinci, who has experience working and published using his actual name as a performer. All of his guests were recognized figures in the magic/entertainment community, many of them are considered business gurus when it comes to entertainment business. This furthered David's credibility as well as the Magic Summit's credibility.

Anyone who posts on Magic Café has no credibility. Even if they post using a credible name, how can one know if it is actually that person or not? Take everything on the Café with a grain of salt.

Again, the best way to learn is from a coach, after that would be from a course that will take you in a specific direction with your business. After that would be programs like Magic Summit or a Magic Business Podcast like Successful Performercast, or something along these lines.

Much further down the list is Magic Café. It is a place to discuss, not to learn. It is possible to learn here but consider the costs, you must sift through a hodge podge of opinions, many will not work for your business, until you find something that works, even still it is just a brief post, and this is very different from the specific and focused instruction one gains from coaching or from a course.

Finally consider the tone. It isn't any wonder top professionals refuse to post here with all the cyberbullying and chiding of younger members. Maybe some posts make great points, yet the condescending tone ruins the point.

Doc Eason says "People won't remember what you do or say, but they will always remember how you made them feel." Or something to that effect, and this is flaw of the Café, members post with no regard to how it makes others feel.

To sum it up:
1) Magic Café has the lowest credibility, who knows who is really posting, remember the Eugene Burger quote about online credibility
2) There are significantly better resources for learning, look for resources that are credible, refer to this thread with the list of the top courses for learning to grow your business: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=621509&forum=44
3) Rather than being a place of constructive help, the Café is a place of negative discourse, and this tone often ruins posts that could contain many pearls, remember Doc Eason's wise quote
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 24, 2016 07:22PM)
So how do you think it made someone FEEL when you said they used "bait and switch tactics" Tim? Never backed it up, never said you were wrong but plow ahead no matter what. How did that make Dave FEEL?

You have lost ALL credibility. Your learning problem is yours and nobody else. You can't learn from here that is all you buddy. Ask guys like Charlie who manage to listen and not talk. You want to TELL and DISCUSS, not LISTEN. There is a huge difference. If you actually spent as much time listening and learning as you do complaining about others you might have half a chance at learning. You can't learn when all you do is point fingers, or tell others how to act.

Too bad you don't see the irony of the fact that when you do that YOU are the problem. Again why bother coming here at all?
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jul 24, 2016 07:40PM)
Danny, I meant bait and switch as a persuasive/communications term, not as a legal term
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Jul 24, 2016 08:11PM)
[quote]On Jul 24, 2016, Tim Friday wrote:
I will say this, these videos on the Summit are a much better place to learn than the magic Café. Coaching (depending on the coach) or a course is the best way to learn because it will dive deep into growing your business, videos such as these with the Summit is a good way to learn especially if you are interested in some of the topics, but the magic Café is by far the worst way to learn. In that sense, I wish you had been able to at least watch some of the videos. [/quote]

As an active member here for 5+ years, I can speak from personal experience with respect to how valuable TMC can be in knowing, and growing ones entertainment business. While videos and lectures can help, I believe true discourse provides the best results. In a community like this, we have an opportunity to draw upon the talent and wisdom of an extremely large and diverse group. Getting to know a bit about each other and our businesses allows for input that offers a unique personal component. The exposure to those who we would otherwise have no access to alone makes this an extremely exciting resource. Additionally, I have forged productive relationships with members that transcends my participation here or my geographical location.

I do think one benefits most when they are willing to engage in discussions. Often, this means that your ego has to be left behind and you have to allow yourself to be vulnerable.
If more of us came here with no other agenda than to share, learn and grow, TMC Tricky Business could operate on a level difficult to rival. When lay people ask me how I was able to grow my business and performance, I always share that blogging with entertainers across the world has allowed me to pick some of the greatest minds in entertainment and entertainment business. I share how impressive and detailed some of the discussions are. I never share the pettiness and nonsense that also goes on here, because it is our dirty laundry.

I do wonder if others ever contemplate what we could cause with more active genuine participation and engagement here. Tim's response to me sharing that TMC is "by far the worst way to learn" counters my own experience and seems like an awkward statement from a member. It serves to potentially deter others from seeking value here, which shrinks the talent pool and adversely affects us all.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 24, 2016 08:34PM)
So much truth in this post of charlies. Point is Tim doesn't participate and contribute but rather chooses to critique and criticize. There is so much that could directly be applied to him and his business (more than some generic magic or marketing courses) but for whatever reason since first appearing here there has been a tone and chip on his shoulder. Not the way a newbie and newer performer will become welcomed into a community and will get the most out of this great resource.

This is a conscious decision he chooses for whatever reason. Besides personal coaching (which I agree with Tim on) there is information here that could directly improve and progress his business, performance and bottom line directly. However, he chooses not to see it as that, which still brings us then to why offer your nuggets of uninformed wisdom and deliberate slams, disses and bashing? It in no way serves progress here, in no way helps you (Tim), and as charlie says deters others from being here, learning or participating.

You're missing the boat here completely. BY believing your own distorted perception, you are making yourself miss out on so much of what can be presented to you.

"
I do think one benefits most when they are willing to engage in discussions. Often, this means that your ego has to be left behind and you have to allow yourself to be vulnerable."- I couldn't agree more.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 24, 2016 09:09PM)
You will get out of it what you put into it. It is really simple.

Tim wants free stuff handed to him so his feelings are not hurt. Coaches don't usually hurt your feelings, but to be fair they want you to keep paying them now don't they?

Find a mentor and then try to tell him HOW he has to talk to you. Then tell him your opinion is just as valid as his. Laughable.

I guess it is a brave new world.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jul 24, 2016 10:26PM)
[quote]On Jul 24, 2016, Tim Friday wrote:

Doc Eason says "People won't remember what you do or say, but they will always remember how you made them feel." Or something to that effect, and this is flaw of the Café, members post with no regard to how it makes others feel.

[snip]

3) Rather than being a place of constructive help, the Café is a place of negative discourse, and this tone often ruins posts that could contain many pearls, remember Doc Eason's wise quote [/quote]

I'm sure you realize that the quote didn't originate from him. It's a well-known quote, often attributed to Maya Angelou (although this article / research says otherwise).

http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/04/06/they-feel/

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 24, 2016 10:29PM)
I wouldnt be so sure he knew.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 26, 2016 08:08AM)
I personally would like to hear what David himself thought of it all and how he thought it went?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 26, 2016 09:53AM)
I can't imagine the work that was involved.
Message: Posted by: MJE (Jul 26, 2016 11:21AM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2016, barts185 wrote:

For someone that doesn't want to watch ads, it seems odd that you chose ones which were very likely to be ads. Did you think that there wasn't going to be any attempt to generate revenue other than selling the set of videos which were free for 24 hours? [/quote]

It's interesting that you would choose that to focus on. Actually, I picked them based on the title. To be sure, the ones that were most intriguing to me, given the limited time I had available, were probably the wrong choices.

I had forgotten that I also watched the one on daycare shows. I found that disappointing for a very specific reason, which I have posted elsewhere on this site.

In case anyone thinks that I object to the program based on your response, I would like to say that I found the project exceptionally well-produced. The effort that went into it (especially considering David's time constraints) is something that I would find exceptionally difficult to tackle. As an advertising vehicle for Mr. Ross, it should prove an effective lower-than-usual expense. I certainly don't object to his ads; I was simply disappointed that I found my time being taken by them while hoping for something else.

Dependent on how successful it ends up being, I can see this becoming either an annual event, or perhaps more effectively, an ongoing pay-per-view sort of series (along the lines of "At The Table" and other online lecture programs). Magicians are notoriously cheap. The price tag for the entire series will prevent many from buying, but give them one at a time for ten bucks a pop and I'd bet they'll be all over it. As long as they aren't paying for a two-hour commercial, I mean.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jul 26, 2016 01:40PM)
In my opinion, the most effective model would have been if David had a course or seminar on developing your magic business. This product would be the product for sale. All the interviews should have been left up as free to operate as a lead generation funnel to drive people to buy his own product that is the seminar or course on growing your magic business.

As it is now, it has the "you get to look for one day then it is taken away" feel. Even if it had been one or two videos for free that included some of the best points from some of the presentations that we got to keep then you have to buy the rest, this would have been a more effective option. Or perhaps a more accurate wording would have been "free-one-day-trial", along these lines, why put it up for one day of the year only? Why are all the people who didn't hear about it until after the event left out? Why not give a free-one-day-trial to anyone when they sign up with their email? This would open it up to many more sales.

I believe the challenge David is up against with these type of videos is much of this information can be acquired for free from magic business podcasts. There are a number of magic business podcasts with similar interviews. The only difference is it is audio rather than video. So if you can get a very similar product for free why buy it?

Here is the video to watch if you want to learn more about giving a product for free, in case anyone here is interested https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3MrwYPRB-I
Also watch the other videos this presenter makes on this topic such as "How Far Should I Move the Free Line?" and "Examples of Moving the Free Line" and "Lead With Your Best Stuff" they are all on youtube and easy to find if you use the link I posted.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 26, 2016 01:51PM)
Again you come in to teach and not learn. David obviously has a very effective business model. Why not just let him operate in his own way?

Maybe YOU can run one like you say and we can compare? That might help.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 26, 2016 01:57PM)
Tim, you are completely missing the point of the Summit format and tool. Actually this was a "Summit-lite" in all actuality as it were a full summit, many here would be complaining even more, lol.

I agree many I've talked to or corresponded with felt a huge part was missing and yes, it was the part of creating, developing and establishing a proper entertainment or magic business. The fundamentals beginning with each step in the process.

Also it was too magic-y as it could have better served other variety or novelty performers (the text stated this, but more could have been offered in this vein)

All of them I've participated in or hosted followed a very similar format to this (with one exception.) They all had content up for only the one day with the full package available at the end.

Again with the Eben Pagan stuff! Are you a groupie? Affiliate?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jul 26, 2016 02:42PM)
I do agree with Tim on this point - the summit interviews were basically podcasts. For me, I watched what I could for free. There are a few I would pay $5-10 a piece to download that I missed. But no way do I feel $197 is worth it, especially considering a few of the videos were just pitches.

I hope I don't sound cheap saying that. I enjoyed it over all, and realize a lot of work went into it.
Message: Posted by: MJE (Jul 26, 2016 03:07PM)
[quote]On Jul 26, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
Why not just let him operate in his own way? [/quote]

If you look back, you will see that feedback was requested. I'm sure it would not have been asked for if he didn't care what people thought of it.

Hopefully, this will not be the only source used to gauge the success of the program. The biggest factor should, of course, be how many people bought the package deal. If it isn't worthwhile, other ideas, including some here, might want to be tried to improve both sales and function rather than scrapping the whole thing. If it is considered a financial success, probably little should change if it is to be again. Maybe some thoughts that are retrieved here and elsewhere can keep it fresh while maintaining what made it a hit.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jul 26, 2016 03:10PM)
[quote]On Jul 26, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
I can't imagine the work that was involved. [/quote]

During at least one of the talks, or maybe in an email, David said that he spent more than 400 hours putting this event together.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 26, 2016 03:24PM)
[quote]On Jul 26, 2016, Donald Dunphy wrote:
[quote]On Jul 26, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
I can't imagine the work involved. [/quote]

During at least one of the talks, or maybe in an email, David said that he spent more than 400 hours putting this event together.

- Donald [/quote]
Yep I was right. I COULD NOT IMAGINE!
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Jul 27, 2016 05:24PM)
I also seen no reason why this was on video, as there was not visual elements to any of the videos I watched.

The guest should have had the questions previously given to them, so they could have had time to think about them and maybe they could have stayed on point, and not repeat themselves so much, as with Murray.

I would have liked to hear more about, when Sean Farquhar said, the does a 35 minute show, and 45 minute pitch for his back of the room products. That sounded way out there, and how the cruise lines thought about it.

2 hours is along time to just listen to someone talk, without any hook statements and visual aids.

The one on 2 walling was the best of the all of them, Bill Gladwell did not try to hide his methods or techniques at the whole business procedure. It was so interesting that I watched it 4 times.

The Bronson magician illusionist was the most impressive, his name started with a F_z_, can't remember, but you one could tell how knowledgeable he was in the business end of selling his shows. Accumulating the necessary funds and using it wisely. He also sounded like he works very hard, and must never sleeps, with the list of things he does. He did it the classic way, went to work for magicians in Bronson and leaned all he could, then went out on his own. This is the guy to learn from if he ever wants to share or publish anything.

All you members that are complaining about the price of $197, remember that is only until the end of the month, then it will be $297.

I can't knock any of the performers for not spilling the beans, as they say. It is their business they have worked hard to develop.
Message: Posted by: MJE (Jul 27, 2016 05:40PM)
Yes, I suppose it would have been just as valuable on audio, but the video added a nice feel, I think. We can more readily relate to the smiles and body language. Since the cost of video (tablet or phone) is no higher than audio these days, I think it's a nice touch. You and I are both probably from the days of seminar-on-cassette, right? Somewhere there are likely still old cars I've had with tapes jammed deep in the seats.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Jul 27, 2016 07:23PM)
[quote]On Jul 27, 2016, Bill Hegbli wrote:

I would have liked to hear more about, when Sean Farquhar said, the does a 35 minute show, and 45 minute pitch for his back of the room products. That sounded way out there, and how the cruise lines thought about it.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure you heard this incorrectly. I know I heard something different during Shawn's talk.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jul 28, 2016 04:41PM)
[quote]On Jul 27, 2016, Bill Hegbli wrote:
The one on 2 walling was the best of the all of them, Bill Gladwell did not try to hide his methods or techniques at the whole business procedure. It was so interesting that I watched it 4 times.

The Bronson magician illusionist was the most impressive, his name started with a F_z_, can't remember, but you one could tell how knowledgeable he was in the business end of selling his shows. Accumulating the necessary funds and using it wisely. He also sounded like he works very hard, and must never sleeps, with the list of things he does. He did it the classic way, went to work for magicians in Bronson and leaned all he could, then went out on his own. This is the guy to learn from if he ever wants to share or publish anything.
[/quote]

I agree... Bill Gladwell had the best and didn't hide anything. That was refreshing. This was tied with Josh Knotts on Fairs and Festivals. He talked real numbers and also told us exactly how to get into the fair and festival market. I'm not sure he had enough info to NEED to take up 2 presentations.. but the info was solid and he was very open to sharing the real techniques to getting into the fair market.

The illusionist you are thinking of is Reza. I agree... it sounds like he works very hard. He also was very honest about money being difficult when he expanded his show too quickly with sound and lights. I liked it when David asked him "well what did you do?" and he responded "I just had to push on through." - THAT'S the secret... make a mistake, lose big money even, but keep on pushing through.
Message: Posted by: MJE (Jul 28, 2016 05:53PM)
[quote]On Jul 27, 2016, Donald Dunphy wrote:
[quote]On Jul 27, 2016, Bill Hegbli wrote:
when Sean Farquhar said, the does a 35 minute show, and 45 minute pitch for his back of the room products. [/quote]

I'm pretty sure you heard this incorrectly. I know I heard something different during Shawn's talk.
- Donald [/quote]

Yeah, I think he was talking about the line to meet the audience and sell product was 45 minutes. I'm sure that's true since he projects an image of a guy who you WANT to shake hands with. At the very least, you feel compelled to say, "Great show!" and since you're already in line, why not buy something for him to sign?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 28, 2016 07:36PM)
[quote]On Jul 28, 2016, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Jul 27, 2016, Bill Hegbli wrote:
The one on 2 walling was the best of the all of them, Bill Gladwell did not try to hide his methods or techniques at the whole business procedure. It was so interesting that I watched it 4 times.

The Bronson magician illusionist was the most impressive, his name started with a F_z_, can't remember, but you one could tell how knowledgeable he was in the business end of selling his shows. Accumulating the necessary funds and using it wisely. He also sounded like he works very hard, and must never sleeps, with the list of things he does. He did it the classic way, went to work for magicians in Bronson and leaned all he could, then went out on his own. This is the guy to learn from if he ever wants to share or publish anything.
[/quote]

The illusionist you are thinking of is Reza. I agree... it sounds like he works very hard. He also was very honest about money being difficult when he expanded his show too quickly with sound and lights. I liked it when David asked him "well what did you do?" and he responded "I just had to push on through." - THAT'S the secret... make a mistake, lose big money even, but keep on pushing through. [/quote]

Which works GREAT when you have a family who will give you money to keep pushing through. What do you do when you DON'T have that? This is what most guys want to know.
Message: Posted by: MJE (Jul 28, 2016 10:35PM)
[quote]On Jul 28, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
Which works GREAT when you have a family who will give you money to keep pushing through. What do you do when you DON'T have that? This is what most guys want to know. [/quote]

Well, you could learn grant writing, I suppose. Magic is an art now, right? The government said so, so it must be true!
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 28, 2016 11:26PM)
[quote]On Jul 28, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
Which works GREAT when you have a family who will give you money to keep pushing through. What do you do when you DON'T have that? This is what most guys want to know. [/quote]

This is the REAL truth behind many magicians four wall shows, but of course they never ever mention this. There are so many of these in Branson and even Vegas that people would be amazed at the truth.

I'm not sure Bill Gladwell's was as telling as everyone thinks it was. I guess if it was a new topic to you it may have offered some insight but there were many (many) holes left in the topic of 2/4 walling. He did make it appear more over easy or simplified than it is for most. I would love to hear from anyone that based on this interview has any luck with this approach and ideas. It is a great topic, which really needs much more than 90 minutes and needs to be probed much deeper, which I'm guessing will be in his course as he mentioned.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 29, 2016 12:38AM)
I could do 90 minutes on the difference in a 2 wall and 4 wall deal.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Jul 29, 2016 03:02PM)
Dave Womach, used Bill Gladwell's information to book his current 2 wall on a Disney Cruise Lines show. He Stated this on the video he offered today as an extra, available until tomorrow morning.

Sure Bill Gladwell left a lot out, if the viewer is totally inexperienced at sales and sales technique. And he left out the fine details of the sales pitch and making the agreement.

I think the main point of the video is that it is possible for anyone with a good show, can look to this new possibility for doing shows. New in the sense that it has not been available to everyone, or even thought of for the average entertainer.

Most won't do it, because the work involved, just like they don't want to carry props to a show, do liquid tricks, or anything that requires extra effort on their part. For those that will put the extra needed, it is an avenue to at least consider and pursue. That is if you performing is your goal in life, as instead of buying the latest trick, you have to work and save to have the capital to even attempt it.

So I would say the 1st step, if have a show, is to call up places and find out what kind of rental fees they charge for their theater. That will give you a ball park dollar goal to save for.

I don't believe these videos were intended to be a course in how to do it, but information at what can be done in this time of the 21st Century, where live entertainment is not readily available to the general public.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 29, 2016 11:19PM)
[quote]On Jul 29, 2016, Bill Hegbli wrote:
Sure Bill Gladwell left a lot out, if the viewer is totally inexperienced at sales and sales technique. And he left out the fine details of the sales pitch and making the agreement.

I think the main point of the video is that it is possible for anyone with a good show, can look to this new possibility for doing shows. New in the sense that it has not been available to everyone, or even thought of for the average entertainer.

Most won't do it, because the work involved,

I don't believe these videos were intended to be a course in how to do it, but information at what can be done in this time of the 21st Century, where live entertainment is not readily available to the general public. [/quote]


Yeah, I agree. I would have also liked to hear more about his problems, setbacks and why he chose not to renew his deal with the last venue he had going. He said "I was warned" eluding to problems or a difficult person or relationship with the venue.

It always seems like so many want to hear the good, encouraging and possibilities of these types pf things, where I prefer to get a more all encompassing understanding and would refer to hear about the problems, setbacks obstacles and such that are involved or incurred in his experiences. To be there is more or at least equal value in this type of info.

I was a nice introduction for those that are unfamiliar with the topic.
Message: Posted by: Shawn Farquhar (Jul 30, 2016 11:19AM)
[quote]On Jul 27, 2016, Bill Hegbli wrote:

I would have liked to hear more about, when Sean Farquhar said, the does a 35 minute show, and 45 minute pitch for his back of the room products. That sounded way out there, and how the cruise lines thought about it.


Hi Bill,

You aren't recalling what I said correctly, and that's cool as I talked for a long time! What I'm pretty certain I said was I did a forty-five minute show and would sell to a line that took ninety minutes to complete. Yes, twice as long to sell than than the show length. My pitch in the show was perhaps fifteen of the forty-five minute show. Of that fifteen minutes they saw a performance of the Svengali deck and several demonstrations of the DVD.

The cruise line loved it and the cruise directors had to schedule around the fact a majority of their passengers would be occupied for that extended period of time. I'm still friends with many of the CD's and Hotel Directors to this day even though I have not worked for those companies in years... It was a very good time in my life.

Cheers,

-shawn
Message: Posted by: DaveWomach (Jul 30, 2016 11:27AM)
[quote]On Jul 29, 2016, Bill Hegbli wrote:
Dave Womach, used Bill Gladwell's information to book his current 2 wall on a Disney Cruise Lines show. He Stated this on the video he offered today as an extra, available until tomorrow morning.

Sure Bill Gladwell left a lot out, if the viewer is totally inexperienced at sales and sales technique. And he left out the fine details of the sales pitch and making the agreement.

I think the main point of the video is that it is possible for anyone with a good show, can look to this new possibility for doing shows. New in the sense that it has not been available to everyone, or even thought of for the average entertainer.

Most won't do it, because the work involved, just like they don't want to carry props to a show, do liquid tricks, or anything that requires extra effort on their part. For those that will put the extra needed, it is an avenue to at least consider and pursue. That is if you performing is your goal in life, as instead of buying the latest trick, you have to work and save to have the capital to even attempt it.

So I would say the 1st step, if have a show, is to call up places and find out what kind of rental fees they charge for their theater. That will give you a ball park dollar goal to save for.

I don't believe these videos were intended to be a course in how to do it, but information at what can be done in this time of the 21st Century, where live entertainment is not readily available to the general public. [/quote]

Just to clarify, I didn't use Bill's lecture to book on Disney. I used it to 2-wall another venue. And trust me, he gave away plenty of information in there to get you started! :) I took no other "course" on the info, just applied it immediately and with full speed ahead, and was BLOWN away. If you ask others who have worked with Bill, you'll see they all have similar results. :)

Cheers!

Dave
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 30, 2016 11:29AM)
That is always the rub. You certainly want to sell, you certainly want to meet guests but places like resorts and cruise ships that have planned activities sometimes make it a rough line to walk.

But you still want to talk to people and Definately sell things and it is rough.

The real art is to be able to make everyone feel special for that moment you are talking to them. You can't spend a lot of time with each one of them but still have to feel special during the interaction.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 30, 2016 12:49PM)
I think many performers miss great opportunities by not learning or understanding the concept of selling from the stage. And this can be merch or BOR but it can also be for generating bookings, additional services, etc. It is a fantastic concept that is rarely discussed or understood. It is both an art and science in and of itself and closely related to good closing skills.

I do wish David would address my question about how he thought it all went and his post-production thoughts and insight. Again it could be a great learning tool as well.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 30, 2016 12:57PM)
I am the WORST at selling from the stage. I dislike watching it so I don't really do it. In Branson the pitches often exeed 20 minutes. It is almost distasteful.

Mind you this is just an opinion.

It is a balance. While certainly you want then to know you are selling stuff, you don't want them to feel jammed either.

I have always just charged enough for my show to be happy if I sold nothing. A bit short sighted without doubt.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Jul 30, 2016 02:59PM)
I agree it is both an art and science. I also think ones character and persona play into it. I have tried to incorporate some of the methods recommended by others in their courses or dvd's and it did not seem to match well with my ways. Of course I need to practice and gain experience, but it is not as simple as doing what others suggest (or are successful at doing).
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 30, 2016 03:58PM)
My focus has always been to provide such an amazing experience that they absolutely WANT something to remember it by. Which by the way is defiantly indicated by a 45 minute wait time to talk with guests.)

I prefer to let the work speak for itself. Only a preference of mine.
Message: Posted by: DaveWomach (Jul 30, 2016 04:56PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
Your attention was more focused on the free part. Gee I wonder if sales people will pick up on this and use it somehow?

To call it a bait and switch tactic is very harsh. I don't think you know what bait and switch actually is. First off it is punishable. So to accuse people of that is pretty serious and if I were you I would think of an apology. You were WAY out of line man.

I have nothing to do with any of this and don't even know the people involved, but because you don't get enough free stuff you cry foul. Well pony up money. THEN if they don't give you what they are claiming you can say bait and switch.

What is aggrevating is people who feel entitled to information for free. As if Dave has no expenses. That he put out samples at all is amazing. [/quote]

Thanks Danny. :) Some people just don't understand that they could watch and take notes on my $10,000+ investment and 400+ hours of time... For free... Those people just want to cry foul. Those people will never get it.

Of course I'd like to recoup my investment, but the WEALTH came from the hundreds of emails I received that week from magicians that didn't !@#$%, and instead took action and had almost-instant success. That's who this was for.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 30, 2016 05:08PM)
Very good and well said.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 30, 2016 05:24PM)
[quote]On Jul 30, 2016, DaveWomach wrote:
[quote]On Jul 21, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
Your attention was more focused on the free part. Gee I wonder if sales people will pick up on this and use it somehow?

To call it a bait and switch tactic is very harsh. I don't think you know what bait and switch actually is. First off it is punishable. So to accuse people of that is pretty serious and if I were you I would think of an apology. You were WAY out of line man.

I have nothing to do with any of this and don't even know the people involved, but because you don't get enough free stuff you cry foul. Well pony up money. THEN if they don't give you what they are claiming you can say bait and switch.

What is aggrevating is people who feel entitled to information for free. As if Dave has no expenses. That he put out samples at all is amazing. [/quote]

Thanks Danny. :) Some people just don't understand that they could watch and take notes on my $10,000+ investment and 400+ hours of time... For free... Those people just want to cry foul. Those people will never get it.

Of course I'd like to recoup my investment, but the WEALTH came from the hundreds of emails I received that week from magicians that didn't !@#$%, and instead took action and had almost-instant success. That's who this was for. [/quote]

You are a far better person than I am Dave.

Yes those people will never get it and it seems we have WAY too many of them here.

Good luck I hope all goes well.

But apparently you have to spend even more money and time in order to give people with no intention of purchasing more free stuff to make them happy.
Message: Posted by: JoeC (Jul 30, 2016 06:51PM)
[quote]On Jul 30, 2016, Mindpro wrote:
Yeah, I agree. I would have also liked to hear more about his problems, setbacks and why he chose not to renew his deal with the last venue he had going. He said "I was warned" eluding to problems or a difficult person or relationship with the venue.

It always seems like so many want to hear the good, encouraging and possibilities of these types pf things, where I prefer to get a more all encompassing understanding and would refer to hear about the problems, setbacks obstacles and such that are involved or incurred in his experiences. To be there is more or at least equal value in this type of info.

I was a nice introduction for those that are unfamiliar with the topic.[/quote]

Mindpro, Bill did a podcast (as a guest) earlier this year in March on 'Successful Performercast'. He answers in it why he left the first venue in Hilton Head and other things. A lot of the same material is covered - but if you read between the lines you can answer a lot of missing questions.

You can find it here: www.successfulperformercast.com/billgladwell/

As a side note, your series of promotion books over at your "Entertainer Business Center" look excellent. I plan on getting them all shortly. I suggest the rest of you check them out too! ;)
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 31, 2016 05:41PM)
Yeah, thanks for mentioning this podcast. I do remember listening to this before but since you mentioned it, I revisited it. Thanks! It still is kind of the same info with some of the same points missing. He just briefly mentions he left his first venue in Hilton Head, which I'd liked to have heard more about, now I'm guessing it was because a difficult owner/manger creating a lass favorable situation. Still it would have been good to hear the "bad" and the "ugly" side as well as the good.

I will be a featured speaker at an upcoming entertainment industry event and Bill will be presenting there as well, so I hope we can share some discussions.

Nothing against Bill, or these many podcasts that are available, but these are all similar in that they tend to only speak from their own story or experience. Now don't get me wrong, this can be valuable, especially to those new to the topic, but as in Bill's case his podcasts and lectures should come with a disclaimer saying "this is based on my own experience and these results may not be typical." I mean come on he gets a booking offered to him (he didn't pursue it) before even being an entertainer or having a show. He then gets his first theater deal (a mentalism show), again without having a show or and has only a week to create one having never been a mentalist. This is really the exception to the rule rather than the norm. Now of course this is great for him, but I'm not sure others would find this as easy.

His experience seems to be quite different than most people I know or have met that 2 or 4 wall their shows (or attempt to).

Also thanks for the kind words on my Entertainer's Success Series of resources for performers and entertainment business owners. I have been receiving so much great feedback and stories of so many performer's success with them. The fourth release in the series will be coming up this fall, which is based on one of the topics I get asked about the most for performers of all levels. Stay tuned...
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jul 31, 2016 09:23PM)
Mindpro, in regards to Bill not sharing why he left a certain venue - it is often the professional stance to not go into details of why you left a position, especially on a medium like a podcast that is being broadcast to multiple listeners. The reason could be of a sensitive nature and it not something to share publicly. Maybe if you get to know Bill this is something that could eventually be discussed privately.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 31, 2016 10:28PM)
Generally in public it is not professional to make accusations like bait and switch but that doesn't stop people from doing it.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 31, 2016 11:50PM)
[quote]On Jul 31, 2016, Tim Friday wrote:
Mindpro, in regards to Bill not sharing why he left a certain venue - it is often the professional stance to not go into details of why you left a position, especially on a medium like a podcast that is being broadcast to multiple listeners. The reason could be of a sensitive nature and it not something to share publicly. Maybe if you get to know Bill this is something that could eventually be discussed privately. [/quote]

You are not understanding this. I pretty much know why he left but was just stating that I would have liked to hear his explanation of it as I thought it could have been interesting and helpful to others. Also the venue was quite right for such a discussion as the venue and topic were about just this - the topic of 2/4 walling and an inside look. If one is going to talk about it, why not talk about all of it? I really wouldn't see a need to discuss this privately. If we were to speak privately this wouldn't be what we'd discuss. But thank you for your concern.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Aug 1, 2016 05:09AM)
As I remember it, Bill Galdwell did speak of why he left that venue, but the reason was given previously in the video, then it was a call back statement. It had something to do with why his friend left, as his friend would not tell Bill why he was leaving after, what was it a year, or was it two. After he took the job, he found out and left after the 1st year. Not it was not detailed, but it was mentioned.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 1, 2016 07:42AM)
That is correct
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Aug 1, 2016 10:01AM)
The Bill Gladwell video has received more positive feedback than any of the others by far, so why is it Mindpro that you are so critical of it? Given the time constraints it covered a great deal of info. And he even went over on time than many of the other videos. What would have covered that he did not in such a limited amount of time?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 1, 2016 10:32AM)
You haven't defined bait and switch.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 1, 2016 11:01AM)
Let's keep it in the right perspective. It received the most feedback because it was available in it's entirety free as an advance sneak peak for a week (or two), plus when it was featured as part of the summit. So people had days or maybe a week to view their at their leisure. That is why it has received more feedback form the others. So let's deal in the facts, not opinion.

I've discussed it here before, four walling and working with agents are the two areas I receive the most questions and interest from entertainers. I truly believe because they are two of the most misunderstood aspects of professional performing.

So what you are interpreting as "so critical" is simply because Bill really didn't touch but the surface of the topic other than to share his non-typical experience. Hence as I said I would have liked for him to go deeper int the subject... But again, remember he likely hasn't experienced much other on this topic as he's only been doing it two years. There is so much more on this topic which is much different than one person sharing their brief and limited experience. I don't say this opposing Bill's podcast, but to establish that this is barely a general overview of the topic, which can be one of the most intricate and detailed in all of entertainment. You are leaving "just being a performer" and are moving into a completely other and for most new areas of producer and promoter. In all actuality his show is likely only 15-20% of his time, effort and expense in this venture. As I said much more can be discussed on this and for those of us that have done this is is immediately and apparently obvious. Without all the facts it is much easier to fail or not to set yourself up to succeed.

As just one example, every time you hear someone talk about the topic of 2/4 walling, they will likely say "first and foremost you must have a top-notch, professional show before even considering this." But rarely if ever will you hear them go deeper into exactly what that means. Most think "I have a top-notch show" so I've got that ready and done. Wrong! A 2/4 wall show is much different than the show you are doing for corporate booking, private bookings, festivals, schools, etc. It requires a certain type of show often with performance elements and dynamics not normally a part of a typical entertainers' show. Again, much is missing and left unaddressed on such a single topic. Any there are dozens more of these elements and topics. I say this not about Bill's but just in general about anyone or anything commonly written on the topic. As I said there is much more to it and it is greatly and grossly misunderstood.

Why is it you seem to have such strong opinions about topics you little or nothing about and towards those people that do? This is a consistency in almost every one of your posts now.

You are also turning this into a "against Bill's podcast and content" topic, rather than a discussion of it. In Bill's defense (not that he needs my defending) he is coming out with a course on this which I am sure he will go into greater details, but again only based on his two year limited personal experience in his very specific niche market which will not be the case for many that attempt it. In honesty and true reality, he should have had the course ready to coincide with this summit's release. I am betting he will for our event this fall.

Also as many here are well aware I started working on this topic about five years ago to be part of my upcoming course. It started to become so vast it soon became it's own project. Just in the work I've done so far on it, I have incurred many of those that have been interviewed and included as part of the book and having faced bankruptcy, divorce, loss of family and all possessions, jail time and suicide. Trust me, there is soooo much more to this topic than what is generally offered. It is business, risk, knowledge and and understanding of the business on much deeper levels than most understand or have experienced. When I was in Branson last year you immediately realize the average performer works about 12-14 hours a day, 5-6 days a week, and if they're lucky they may break even, go a year or two before even seeing a penny profit, and the majority will not even make it through the duration of their first contract. In over 90% of those featured in the project, lawsuits were involved. Vegas is even worse. Don't even get me started on Vegas.

Again there is so much more to be covered on this topic, some of which I am confident that Bill has been fortunate enough not to have experienced.
Message: Posted by: DunningersLament (Aug 1, 2016 02:40PM)
RE: BOR Sales...

There are specific types of merchandise like those with branding related specifically to the performer--stickers. t shirts, magnets, etc--that make sense to me from a creative/business/marketing perspective. But I find this rather widespread and generally accepted practice of selling actual magic effects to your audiences be very tacky, to say the least.

For example (and this also applies to many others)...I think for a guy with credentials like Shawn, someone who is a clearly talented performer and knows what is what, BOR sales undermine his brand and credibility as a professional. Selling wares related to the specific performer is one thing, but when you get paid to stand on stage in front of others you are getting paid because of your skills as a performer of magic, the very same skills which set you apart from the audience seated before you. If after your performance, you then turn around a sell a Svengali deck or any other specific magic related props or effects, what makes you so special to begin with? What does this say about you as creative and unique conjurer of wonder when you are so willing to simply sell those secrets to the unwashed masses and suddenly morph into a ingratiating, mall kiosk pitchman?

Selling magic at a magic show as if to say, "Hey, even you can do this...for just $25!" is reductionist to say the least, and it leads to the further trivialization of what we do as so-called professionals. If I can buy a trick that you performed in your show right after I paid good money to see you demonstrate your expertise, please explain why I paid you to be the magician in the first place?
Message: Posted by: MJE (Aug 1, 2016 03:36PM)
[quote]On Aug 1, 2016, DunningersLament wrote:
If I can buy a trick that you performed in your show right after I paid good money to see you demonstrate your expertise, please explain why I paid you to be the magician in the first place? [/quote]

It's clearly a valid point, but the audience should be afforded some credibility. Certainly, they have at least HEARD of trick decks and realize that the performer couldn't and wouldn't use such an item (which is why, in a pinch, we CAN get away with it). I like to think that they see the plastic magic props in a magic set are not the sort of thing they saw on the stage that night. There may well be exceptions but, through the years, I have seen this to be the case.

Someone mentioned doing a demo of the Svengali from the stage. At one time, many years ago, I did do just that. It was pretty effective. The audience could clearly see that this was not the caliber of the effects in the real show, but could likewise see that it was some magic that they could actually do. Indeed, there is a fine line there, but I don't think it's too hard for the audience to see and appreciate.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 1, 2016 04:03PM)
I have said this for decades. I just think it cheapens what we do.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 1, 2016 05:12PM)
I think there are venues, markets and certain types of performers that lend themselves to merch or BOR. I definitely think it's not one size fits all. That's why it's always a bit misleading when someone releases something on BOR as it does not seem to translate well across the board.
Message: Posted by: DunningersLament (Aug 1, 2016 06:29PM)
That's a fair point, Mindpro. Could you elaborate on what type of venues, markets, and type of performers lend themselves to BOR sales?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 1, 2016 06:56PM)
Sure. For example school assemblies, home/private parties or restaurants may be more unacceptable or improper, whereas theater shows, fairs & festivals, cruise ships, colleges and seminars might be more acceptable or favorable.

(Markets) Theater show acts often have a program, t-shirts, hats, key chains, CDs or DVDs which is appropriate and normal. Yet at a private event (wedding, anniversary, graduation party, etc.) it is often considered more inappropriate. I know a performer that accepted inexpensive bookings at senior living centers, then following his performance was trying to sell his DVDs for $25 (unbeknownst and unapproved by the facility or AD).

(Type of Performers) Bands or singers selling CDs and DVD is typically normal and accepted. Hypnotists selling their performance DVDs. Speakers selling their book, course or educational materials. Magicians selling Sven decks, wands, and packet tricks or magic kits can be acceptable in the right venues. Comedians selling their CDs, DVDs or T-shirts with their catch phrases is common and acceptable. I've had several jugglers release a (You Can Learn To Juggle Too) book with three bean bag balls that were viewed as perfectly acceptable (again, in the right venues).

I also think status comes into play and should be considered. I recently produced a concert with the headliner and opening act. The headliner had their merchandising areas and the opening act came up to me and asked where they could setup to sell their CDs. In this scenario it is considered inappropriate for an unknown opening act to sell their wares. Especially if space is limited and it is not part of their contract as with the headliners. I say it all time time, all performers, entertainers and acts are not equal. It is important to know and understand your position. What applies and is available to a headliner is not the same for a unknown local act.

Perhaps there is a way to sell BOR anywhere, but is it always perceived as proper or in the best interest? I wouldn't let any of my acts sell at a Bat Mitzvah, Quinceanera, library or some corporate events.

As I said, one size does not fit all.
Message: Posted by: Shawn Farquhar (Aug 2, 2016 04:26AM)
[quote]On Aug 1, 2016, DunningersLament wrote:
RE: BOR Sales...

"I think for a guy with credentials like Shawn, someone who is a clearly talented performer and knows what is what, BOR sales undermine his brand and credibility as a professional." [/quote]

That's exactly what I thought for years, until a guest took the time to locate me and request a meeting to speak to me on a cruise ship. She was upset that I had nothing for her to buy. Nothing of "me" to take home and share with her family and friends. The concept was foreign to me and I had no response. I gave her a signed 8x10 and thought she'd be happy, but she wasn't.

I understand now as I have had hundreds of people express it better to me than she did that day. They want to take a small pieces of you home and they want to share you with others. A performance DVD was the first, and later the Svengali deck. Why the Svengali deck? Because I want others to catch the magic bug. I started with a TV Magic deck and so did countless magicians around the globe. It's an easy to present effect and certainly doesn't reflect on me or my skill level in anyway. It's an opportunity to share magic with someone who has a genuine interest in learning. Yes, many will never do it for others but they get to glimpse into the world of magic and see something cool. They see the workings and are impressed. You as a magician are not impressed, but lay folks think it's amazing.

I have all my material branded with my name and image and people cherish it for years. Just last week a person saw I was performing close to them and they emailed to invite me to their home for dinner... why? Well they felt they knew me, having watched my DVD for the past five years every time the family got together! Or the time the Grandfather asked me to replace his broken DVD as it was one of the main reasons his Grandson came to visit him! For me this was never about the extra funds (although they were substantial) it was about giving the audience one more way to experience me and my magic.

-shawn
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Aug 2, 2016 08:26PM)
[quote]On Aug 2, 2016, Shawn Farquhar wrote:
[For me this was never about the extra funds (although they were substantial) it was about giving the audience one more way to experience me and my magic. [/quote]

I agree with this. My BOR is rarely substantial, however, as it is priced to be very affordable to families. I find BOR works well for me more from a branding and brand recognition perspective. I would imagine my earnings from BOR will grow as my business capabilities grow and I become more sophisticated in my approach and make it more of a focus of improvement. For now, I gave bigger things to address.
Message: Posted by: DunningersLament (Aug 4, 2016 11:40PM)
Thanks for engaging with me and providing further context, Shawn & Mindpro.

I understand why all those many other types of performers that Mindpro mentioned utilize BOR sales. It seems like a logical extension of their particular craft. And although selling magic at a magic show still leaves me wanting, Shawn provided me with enough to get to me move the needle in my thinking, if only slightly.

Context is everything in this case, and the appropriateness of selling magic at your show is largely subjective. And I can certainly see how things differ a bit given the specific type of venues one might work in.

I don't perform on cruise ships, nor do I perform for children. And therefore, I don't see any legitimate reason to sell magic at my own shows, but I can see how such thinking can vary depending on the type of venues and the typical types of audiences you attract.
Message: Posted by: Chris Stolz (Aug 11, 2016 02:21PM)
[quote]On Jul 28, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Jul 28, 2016, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Jul 27, 2016, Bill Hegbli wrote:
The one on 2 walling was the best of the all of them, Bill Gladwell did not try to hide his methods or techniques at the whole business procedure. It was so interesting that I watched it 4 times.

The Bronson magician illusionist was the most impressive, his name started with a F_z_, can't remember, but you one could tell how knowledgeable he was in the business end of selling his shows. Accumulating the necessary funds and using it wisely. He also sounded like he works very hard, and must never sleeps, with the list of things he does. He did it the classic way, went to work for magicians in Bronson and leaned all he could, then went out on his own. This is the guy to learn from if he ever wants to share or publish anything.
[/quote]

The illusionist you are thinking of is Reza. I agree... it sounds like he works very hard. He also was very honest about money being difficult when he expanded his show too quickly with sound and lights. I liked it when David asked him "well what did you do?" and he responded "I just had to push on through." - THAT'S the secret... make a mistake, lose big money even, but keep on pushing through. [/quote]

Which works GREAT when you have a family who will give you money to keep pushing through. What do you do when you DON'T have that? This is what most guys want to know. [/quote]

You work your ass off the same way Reza did and does every day. I can attest to the fact that the dude works friggen hard.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 11, 2016 05:55PM)
Can you also attest to where the money comes from while he is working hard?

See I don't care how hard you work reality is what it is.

Nobody is saying he doesn't work hard, but often that is not enough. When you have a money source it is easy to work hard and hope for results. 75% of Branson does exactly this. That town is built on performers dreams. Sort of sad none have the guts to stand up and say it. Everyone wants to pose as a success. Nobody ever failed in that town, yet almost everyone in that town is losing money.

It is almost comical to read otherwise, because here is the reality.

If yoy have a $40 dollar ticket first things first you may get $12 for that ticket from a ticket broker. Then yoy pay $1,200 per month for billboards, pay $1,000's for Travel Host ands Sunny Day and a myriad of other ads about town. Then rack cards by the thousands and rental monthly of somewhere to put them. All this and WAY more just to even get noticed!

Then you go to what are called "teasers" and literally beg people to come see your show. Them Ihop and all the breakfast rooms handing out cards. It is all intercept marketing. You spend about 40 hours a week doing that.

Mind you you are on an 8 month spread sheet but the billboards and such are yearly prices so in the winter you pay that bill.

All this and more in the hope that the show will draw. There is an easy formula to end up with a small fortune in Branson at the end of the season. Start with a large one and open a show.

This is why 75% of those shows are financed through family or what not. Mom's and dad's or wives or whatever.

So the question is simply when you don't have family to finance you what do you do? Don't give me work your but off because that won't pay the bills. Where do you get the money to work when it is not coming in?

I mean for once lets not pose. Lets discuss the realities of doing shows.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 11, 2016 06:50PM)
[quote]On Aug 11, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
Can you also attest to where the money comes from while he is working hard?

See I don't care how hard you work reality is what it is.

Nobody is saying he doesn't work hard, but often that is not enough. When you have a money source it is easy to work hard and hope for results. 75% of Branson does exactly this. That town is built on performers dreams. Sort of sad none have the guts to stand up and say it. Everyone wants to pose as a success. [/quote]


I see this every single day and couldn't agree more. Performers are some of the most delusional people in what they "see" as success. They want to buy into the illusion or fantasy. I've got news for you, hard work guarantees nothing.

And next, things are more often than not, not at all as they seem to appear. You would think performers and entertainers are "insiders" enough to see this, but they aren't. Magicians always seem to think just because someone is in Branson, Vegas, The Dells, Eureka Springs, Orlando or beach cities or other areas, that just because they (a performer) have their own show or perhaps their own theater, that they are doing great, living the lifestyle, fulfilling their dreams, and being successful.

Rarely is this ever the case. I'd even go as far as to say less than 25% of the the shows running at any given time are profitable and truly successful. Sure there are different definitions of success, but lets not play on words, I'm talking just basic being profitable ebough to make a living.

Daily costs for a smaller show, even with the best of deals, can range from hundreds to more typically thousands per day when all is factored. Then no one ever talks about attendanace. I went and say a headlining hypnosis show here in Vegas and there were maybe 12 people in the audience. By the time the hypnotist practically begged and finally got 6 volunteers on stage to be hypnotized, the audience was 6, and most of them were comps! This happens evrey day, every evening in most of these cities.

Most are bankrolled by investors, in magic often also known as mom and dad or an inheritance. Once it runs out, BAM! all of a sudden the show has "moved on."

Now I will say this to all of those that made reference to the recent podcasts and summits regarding 2/4 walling that thought they were so great and informative. What Danny has posted in just this one post above was far more realistic and informative than any podcast on the topic I've heard yet. Real numbers, from real venues in the real world, with real regularity.

There seems to be a trend going on now with guys that are lecturing on the topic of self-produced shows that have only been doing it a couple of years, and are sharing their limited results. What Danny has posted are the realities with more facts and details that I've heard offered yet...and it was FREE!

This topic along with the gross misunderstanding and perceptions about agents and agencies, are two of the most common in live entertainment, especially from those that think they know what they don't know. Personally I find the two topics fascinating, but many don't really want to hear the truths and realities, but would rather believe the false image, fluff or misperception that often exists. I guess it's much easier that way.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 11, 2016 07:03PM)
Reality is not what most want to hear.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Aug 11, 2016 07:26PM)
At least a couple of the speakers that I watched talked about all of the promotional work and comping involved with promoting their show.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Chris Stolz (Aug 11, 2016 07:29PM)
[quote]On Aug 11, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
Can you also attest to where the money comes from while he is working hard?

See I don't care how hard you work reality is what it is.

Nobody is saying he doesn't work hard, but often that is not enough. When you have a money source it is easy to work hard and hope for results. 75% of Branson does exactly this. That town is built on performers dreams. Sort of sad none have the guts to stand up and say it. Everyone wants to pose as a success. Nobody ever failed in that town, yet almost everyone in that town is losing money.

It is almost comical to read otherwise, because here is the reality.

If yoy have a $40 dollar ticket first things first you may get $12 for that ticket from a ticket broker. Then yoy pay $1,200 per month for billboards, pay $1,000's for Travel Host ands Sunny Day and a myriad of other ads about town. Then rack cards by the thousands and rental monthly of somewhere to put them. All this and WAY more just to even get noticed!

Then you go to what are called "teasers" and literally beg people to come see your show. Them Ihop and all the breakfast rooms handing out cards. It is all intercept marketing. You spend about 40 hours a week doing that.

Mind you you are on an 8 month spread sheet but the billboards and such are yearly prices so in the winter you pay that bill.

All this and more in the hope that the show will draw. There is an easy formula to end up with a small fortune in Branson at the end of the season. Start with a large one and open a show.

This is why 75% of those shows are financed through family or what not. Mom's and dad's or wives or whatever.

So the question is simply when you don't have family to finance you what do you do? Don't give me work your but off because that won't pay the bills. Where do you get the money to work when it is not coming in?

I mean for once lets not pose. Lets discuss the realities of doing shows. [/quote]

Actually all I'm saying is that you shouldn't suggest that his family is funding him, especially when you are flat out wrong.

Fact - He was never "given" a penny from anyone including family other than, as I understand it, small bank loans in the early days, which was him taking on his own risk and paying it off with show profits.

Again, I am simply suggesting we don't drag someone's name through the dirt and make assumptions without consulting them for their real story (which I have).
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 11, 2016 07:44PM)
So obviously you are the only one.

Yea sorry lived there for 10 years, still have a house there and know just about everyone in every show and every theater in town. Lets not pretend I am uninformed ok?

Also I don't think I mentioned a name. But sure if facts drag his name through the dirt that is bad.

FACT not one thing I wrote was factually incorrect.

So the question is important though you want to avoid it. When money is not coming in how do you keep going?

Ever been to branson or worked it?

Oh and by the way you notice how nothing I wrote included the expense of running the actual show. Illusions and assistants and tech support and royalties and so forth. Let me guess I an wrong about that as well?

Branson marketing firms will tell you that a plan to lose money for 3 years is the thing to do. Heck most tour companies won't even think of using you until you establish long enough so they know you won't go away. But let me guess I am wrong about that as well?

What do you do while you are not making money to pay all that stuff? Working hard is not an answer.

Like I said I never mentioned a name. But unless people start to talk honestly about this nobody will ever actually learn.

This is not only true of Branson but Pigeon Forge and every tourist town on the planet. Not necessity a bad thing but Definately a thing.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 11, 2016 08:09PM)
Also let's keep the right perspective too. I too am quite familiar with Branson and it's scene, not how it appears, but how it actually is. He is only there for two full weeks of the year, the first two of August. The rest of his schedule are minimal dates, not a full schedule all season or year long. Not that this topic was actually about him, as I didn't see anyone singling him out at all.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 11, 2016 08:44PM)
I want to hear more about the bank that will finance an illusion show in the beginning. Then about how you pay those off with "show profits" in the beginning. It is ridiculous!

Tell everyone the name of the bank that does such things. THAT is good information!!!
Message: Posted by: MJE (Aug 11, 2016 10:17PM)
[quote]On Aug 11, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
I want to hear more about the bank that will finance an illusion show in the beginning. [/quote]

My curiosity was hit had by that statement, as well. If most shows are either losing money or breaking even, would a bank offer unsecured loans to an experiment? I certainly have no intention of attempting the undertaking of a show, but I would really like to understand how such financing is possible, considering the history of these shows and the current economic climate.

I suppose that if a truly big-name entertainer were to mount a show, a lending institution may have an interest. I mean REALLY big. Someone who will fill a hall wherever it may be. In magic, I can only think of one current performer who might be able to do that, and he certainly has collateral in excess. In our small world of magic, we have many exceptionally talented practitioners and they are very popular ...... with us. That doesn't necessarily translate to the rest of the ticket-buying public. Still, banks will offer unsecured loans to a show that stands a pretty good chance of going bust? I just don't get it.

I'm certainly not arguing this point. I don't know enough about it to argue about it. I just....don't .....get .....it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 11, 2016 10:34PM)
Right financing is easy once you are a huge name and don't need it. But the claim specifically of in the beginning was my interest.

This means no contracts yet because there is no show. I mean the whole idea is confusing to say the least.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 11, 2016 10:42PM)
[quote]On Aug 11, 2016, MJE wrote:
In our small world of magic, we have many exceptionally talented practitioners and they are very popular ...... with us. That doesn't necessarily translate to the rest of the ticket-buying public. [/quote]

Also being exceptionally talented as a performer, has little to do with translating to business or financial success. There are many uber-talented performers, who can't pay their rent, feed their family or make their payments. I've always said, success is created in the business behind the performance.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 11, 2016 10:43PM)
[quote]On Aug 11, 2016, MJE wrote:
[quote]On Aug 11, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
I want to hear more about the bank that will finance an illusion show in the beginning. [/quote]

My curiosity was hit had by that statement, as well. [/quote]

I often talk about entertainment business vs. conventional business, and how there are a different set of rules for entertainment business. This is exactly one of them.
Message: Posted by: MJE (Aug 12, 2016 09:26AM)
I'm only guessing, but it would seem that financing a new and unknown illusion show in a town like Branson or Vegas is an entirely different project than financing a Broadway show. The backers of theater programs are gamblers. They are looking for that diamond in the rough. Risking money is their business, and there's a big payoff if they make the right bet.

Banks do not seem to like gambles. It's been said here that they DO risk loans to new illusion shows. Again, I'm not saying that what has been posted here is untrue. I'm simply asking why they would do that.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 12, 2016 09:35AM)
In the two cases I personally know of a bank taking the risk and loaning for an upcoming show or production, in both cases, the magician's father was the bank President.

There are some private investors for such productions, whether Broadway, off-Broadway or in towns like Branson, Vegas or Your Town, USA, but the terms are very loan-shark like and almost all of them require a personal guarantee. I have invested in shows and production before and lost my...shirt.

I know a magician that even went on T.V.'s Shark Tank to pitch his grandiose "Las Vegas Magic & Illusion Show" and all the shark's including Damon who is best friends with Sigfreid & Roy's manager/financier, told them he was crazy, no-way. terrible investment and of course he left empty-handed.

This is why the whole 2/4 wall story leaves much undiscussed whenever it is brought up, leading to many great misconceptions and misunderstandings about it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 12, 2016 10:29AM)
My guess is the Shark Tank thing was the producers adding what they think is entertainment.

I am thinking that it is a statement that needs to be backed up and really can't be.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Aug 12, 2016 11:02AM)
From what I recall of Reza's interview, he was asked outright if anyone (implying family) gave him money to buy his illusions, lights, sound, tour bus, etc., and he said that he built his show piece by piece, as he earned money from doing performances. Dave Womach also talked in one of the interviews about the fact that he built his show piece by piece, as well (it might have been during that same interview).

I think Reza even admitted to some struggles that he had, when growing his business. I seem to recall a few of the interviewees talking about some of their struggles and mistakes.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Aug 12, 2016 04:59PM)
The 2 wall/4 wall Branson details are right on the money. It's a lot to spend with very little reward just to say you have your own show. Regarding BOR sales, I toured for years without pitching anything. Stan Kramian would always burn me for it! When people asked him why he kept doing the mouse pitch, he would just point at his new Cadillac sitting outside and say, "It bought that". I always spent time after every show greeting everyone and thanking them for coming. Stan always told me that if they really liked the show, they wanted something to remember it by. That took me back to seeing Mark Wilson at the Texas State Fair when I was around 9 and waiting to get his magic kit which I was so proud of because I actually got to meet Mark Wilson!

The next year I packaged 2 small branded effects that cost me about 5 cents to make so I sold them each for a dollar and signed them. Keep in mind this was about 20 years ago. The promoter of the show watched me one day and said, "How many fewer units do you think you would sell if you doubled them to $2?" The next day I sold them all at $2 and sold just as many. He then told me that they were now having to decide which trick to by so he suggested $3 each or both for $5. Yeah, Everyone then got both. That was my first real lesson in BOR. I had someone actually doing the transactions and I just greeted everyone and signed their stuff if they asked. I learned to wait for that as one 7 year old's parents bought him the tricks and I signed them before handing them over whereupon he loudly said, "He wrote all over them!" Lesson learned.
Message: Posted by: magicreza (Aug 13, 2016 03:04AM)
Just to set the record straight... my family never "funded" my career. They had the financial means to, but instead wanted to teach me how to start and run a business myself, from an early age. And I'm extremely grateful for that... even though I skinned my knees plenty of times in the process.

As far as Danny Doyle's viewpoint on Branson: it sounds pretty realistic and maybe even reflecting personal experience. In fact, I'm surprised I've never heard his name before. But I think he's right. For anyone coming into a saturated market run by ticket brokers... 4-walling without name recognition can be tough math. But there's different approaches. I started working in Branson at age 14 as an opening act, grunt, backstage hand, etc. just trying to learn the ropes. I took what I learned and hit the road to begin building a career. I didn't come back to town as a headliner until I had the ability to secure a guaranteed contract and the right venue. If someone invested big money into me early on, in hopes of fast-tracking that dream, they would have surely lost their investment.

If anyone has the itch to perform in Branson but isn't in a position to fund it themselves (or give up a steady pay-check) there's plenty of opportunities to perform as featured acts in different shows, theme parks, etc. Then once established, who knows what doors can open up when the time is right...
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 13, 2016 08:17AM)
Yea now tell what those featured acts make every night. If it is $100 a show that is a lot.

But again I ask a series question. What do you do to fund stuff when no money is coming in?

As for Branson I recall you coming in with Brett than leaving to do your own thing but that was only a few years ago.
Message: Posted by: magicreza (Aug 13, 2016 10:20AM)
I don't know how much featured acts make, but I'm sure it varies on the artist and the deal. Just pointing out that there have been performers in Branson who haven't had to 4-wall and seem to be making a living and supporting families. I'm also not saying that it's easy to even get a gig.

How do you fund stuff when money isn't coming in? May have to work side-jobs or start small and work your way up. There are magicians in town who are waiting tables, working backstage gigs, etc. ... one of them might be the next star. What if your beyond that and still determined to make it in town? Start pitching your show to Silver Dollar City. I don't have all the answers... I'm just saying that everyone has options available to them. It's rare to make it overnight and it's hard to make it little by little. But the ol' phrase: if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

To correct you, I came to Branson and worked as an opening act, backstage hand, etc. around 2000 - 2002. But my dream at that point wasn't necessarily Branson. I wanted to tour but first needed to learn the ropes. I back came in and out of Branson in more recent years as apart of a project with Brett before ultimately securing my own theatre deal. It's a process, man. And you're right to say that it's tough. I'm not challenging that...
Message: Posted by: MJE (Aug 13, 2016 11:08AM)
Hi, Reza. I've never met you and, quite frankly, never heard of you until this topic came up. I'm quite impressed by what you have written over the past couple of days. It sounds like you have a lot of determination and remain well-grounded enough to deal with upcoming setbacks, should they occur.

Over the years, I have seen very talented people decide that it was time to move on to bigger and better. Some aren't willing or able to put in the kind of effort you have described and go back to their comfort zone. Some ARE willing and able, but still fail. I hope and believe that you are our future big name. Taking things one step at a time, I doubt that you are going to let anything discourage you enough to put the brakes on. Even the way you are responding here to what others may well consider insulting comments shows much about your vision.

Probably the best advisory comment you made is "everyone has options." If someone is determined to get to a specific goal, options are limitless. Everything that has ever been done in any field happened because someone thought of it. New ideas often fail, but if you come up with one that doesn't, they'll be calling you a genius pretty soon.

Best wishes for a long run at the top!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 13, 2016 11:32AM)
Before ANYONE gets confused let me state the following.

IF a family helps (Not Reza's but family X.) a performer SO WHAT? Isn't that what family is for? I am not saying it is a bad thing, or a good thing just a thing. My family would have done anything they could to help me. That just means you have a great family for family X in my view. It is no badge of honor to NOT take money from a family, or from investors or from anyone. (Obviously depending on how you get it LOL.) I had some advantages knowing people I know and I use that. It is not a bad thing at all.

That being said there is also the following. I don't care HOW much money family X has, if the show is not good it is not good and will be seen for what it is. It takes WAY more than money to get ANYWHERE in a performance art. Yes money helps and is a leg up, but even WITH it there is NO WAY to say that it is the only thing needed.

My questions are about the reality of performance. Again what does one do when money is NOT coming in? These are very important questions because when you finish all the pod casts, and read all the books NOBODY really gets into that sort of thing too deeply. It sort of taints the reality of what life is like and is SHOCKING for those who wind up trying and running into this stuff.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 13, 2016 12:27PM)
I agree that why I think the right, real and actual information is what is needed and is rarely discussed. Many don't want to hear it, others can''t handle it. Right along with that comes complete honesty. As revealed in the "puffery" thread, we here are not the public, so public perceptions and images as well as ego should be checked at the door, so we can deal in facts and realities. If you want to talk shop, lets talk shop...from the basis of honesty and reality.

I would much rather hear about a performers honest reality of the problems, they face, the areas they stumble in and the true realities of their show. In Branson, where 80% (probably more) of the shows are sinking, upside down and losing money, in the red or shuffling, making $100 per night could be considered a success. Things are not at all as they appear and I'm always open to those that want to pull back the curtain and get into the truths and realities of it all, rather than just perpetuating the "perception."

I also feel this type of discussion is far more vauable to the members here than just the fluff or perceived image often projected.

As far as "family money" it can be the most dangerous type of money. Family typically believes in you unconditionally (or at least less conditionally than any bank or investors would), which often lends itself to jaded belief and perceptions, often quite different than reality. It is also so much harder to default on family than an outside entity. It's personal and hits much more close to home. I have seem so many entertainer's families destroyed by "family money" and failed investment results.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 13, 2016 12:40PM)
There is no doubt that using family money or friends and losing it can be a tough thing on relationships.

And to reiterate nobody said or is saying anything about Reza in particular.
Message: Posted by: Keith Raygor (Aug 13, 2016 07:22PM)
To reiterate, you were the only person that brought up "family money" when the subject was specifically about Reza in particular. You were responding directly to a post about Reza, and even used the phrase "keep pushing through", which referred to a quote from Reza's video. "Family money" had no place in this conversation.

[quote]On Jul 28, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Jul 28, 2016, thomasR wrote:
The illusionist you are thinking of is Reza. I agree... it sounds like he works very hard. He also was very honest about money being difficult when he expanded his show too quickly with sound and lights. I liked it when David asked him "well what did you do?" and he responded "I just had to push on through." - THAT'S the secret... make a mistake, lose big money even, but keep on pushing through. [/quote]

Which works GREAT when you have a family who will give you money to keep pushing through. What do you do when you DON'T have that? This is what most guys want to know. [/quote]

Then, when someone suggests your 'not-about-Reza' info is wrong . . .

[quote]On Aug 11, 2016, Chris Stolz wrote:
Actually all I'm saying is that you shouldn't suggest that his family is funding him, especially when you are flat out wrong.

Fact - He was never "given" a penny from anyone including family other than, as I understand it, small bank loans in the early days, which was him taking on his own risk and paying it off with show profits.

Again, I am simply suggesting we don't drag someone's name through the dirt and make assumptions without consulting them for their real story (which I have). [/quote]

. . . you double down about family money and respond to the very-specicifically-about-Reza post with:

[quote]On Aug 11, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
So the question is simply when you don't have family to finance you what do you do? Don't give me work your but off because that won't pay the bills. Where do you get the money to work when it is not coming in?

I mean for once lets not pose. Lets discuss the realities of doing shows. [/quote]

Danny, this thread was already about the realities of doing shows, and the hard work involved - by people actually there doing it.

[quote]On Aug 11, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea sorry lived there for 10 years, still have a house there and know just about everyone in every show and every theater in town. Lets not pretend I am uninformed ok?
Also I don't think I mentioned a name. But sure if facts drag his name through the dirt that is bad.

FACT not one thing I wrote was factually incorrect.
[/quote]

That's just plain petty. And not helpful to the spirit of the OP or the magicians trying to have a discussion about some hard-working people that shared their knowledge freely.

To quote you from earlier in this very thread ". . . if I were you I would think of an apology. You were WAY out of line man."

Pesky facts.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 13, 2016 07:51PM)
Yea right the agenda shows up again. Fairly pathetic of you as usual.

Nice out of context post but to be clear Mr. pot stirrer I was talking about what to do when you don't have money to just push through and work hard? Take all the stuff out of context you like it doesn't change the reality of the question.

So if you want to contribute them please by all means do. But since all you want to do is be a passion why not refrain from posting? You almost never contribute anything.

The idea of how to push through with no backing is valid. I admit when doing the senior circuit out kids parties not so much but in other venues it matters.

Like I also said the idea of family giving money isn't a bad thing at all. What is wrong with a family supporting kids dreams? Mine fully supported me going to college. Why is it suddenly a bad thing to have family support? Why is it a bad thing at all? I sods mine would do anything they could for me and me for them. Now it is dragging a name through the mud or it is you telling me it is bad. What exactly about it is bad Keith? That is YOU trying to stir up crap as usual.

So again contribute. Don't be obnoxious.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Aug 13, 2016 09:03PM)
Reza,

Congratulations on doing what many of the naysayers here say can’t be done.
You are a good example that “a positive mindset and hard work" will pay off.
Well Done.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 14, 2016 06:23PM)
Why not answer how it is an insult to have a family that cares enough to help? Still haven't managed that from you or Tom.

No it is more important for you to stir the pot as always.

By the way it is also great the way Rezas family wanted him to know the business and sort of forced him to go that route. Great thing as well.
Message: Posted by: Nash (Aug 15, 2016 04:31AM)
[quote]On Aug 13, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
I still want one of you to explain how a family helping is somehow am insult? You keep demanding apologies and making attacks and never manage an answer. [/quote]

I'm prob. gonna regret even bothering to speak my voice but ...
Please, spare us with your BS.
You use this board as an ego boast and even a teenager can see through your insecurity.
To be honest you're just an annoyance.

When you accuse someone else's hard work as a result of "family funding", you are disregarding his/her hard work, implying that his/her fortune is made from pure luck that s/he was born into a rich family. Please tell me you are smart enough to understand that. Please at least do us all a favor and admit that is what you meant when you put your fingers on those buttons on your keyboard.

When Reza comes out and tell us he didn't receive any funding from his family, THEN you come out and say "oh well I never said family funding is an insult"
Anyone can see through your words buddy, nice try.

You might have great insights, but you are doing yourself AND EVERYONE a disservice by not being able to communicate them.
If your intention of posting here is to HELP others, then I suggest you use a more effective communication style.
Otherwise, everyone is going to just tune you out because you are simply an annoyance.

But then again, you can always use it as an ego boast "Oh you don't like what I said, that's caz you don't like reality and you don't know #$R#$#"
............... or maybe you really su#k at communications?
Message: Posted by: MJE (Aug 15, 2016 08:13AM)
[quote]On Aug 15, 2016, Nash wrote:
I'm prob. gonna regret even bothering to speak my voice [/quote]

Uh-oh......NOW you've done it......
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 15, 2016 09:26AM)
[quote]On Aug 15, 2016, Nash wrote:
[quote]On Aug 13, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
I still want one of you to explain how a family helping is somehow am insult? You keep demanding apologies and making attacks and never manage an answer. [/quote]

I'm prob. gonna regret even bothering to speak my voice but ...
Please, spare us with your BS.
You use this board as an ego boast and even a teenager can see through your insecurity.
To be honest you're just an annoyance.

When you accuse someone else's hard work as a result of "family funding", you are disregarding his/her hard work, implying that his/her fortune is made from pure luck that s/he was born into a rich family. Please tell me you are smart enough to understand that. Please at least do us all a favor and admit that is what you meant when you put your fingers on those buttons on your keyboard.

When Reza comes out and tell us he didn't receive any funding from his family, THEN you come out and say "oh well I never said family funding is an insult"
Anyone can see through your words buddy, nice try.

You might have great insights, but you are doing yourself AND EVERYONE a disservice by not being able to communicate them.
If your intention of posting here is to HELP others, then I suggest you use a more effective communication style.
Otherwise, everyone is going to just tune you out because you are simply an annoyance.

But then again, you can always use it as an ego boast "Oh you don't like what I said, that's caz you don't like reality and you don't know #$R#$#"
............... or maybe you really su#k at communications? [/quote]

Right sure.

Now without insulting me please tell me how what I said was an insult. Not twisting my words or reading into what I said or assuming what I mean.

Tell me why it is an insult without insulting. You lash out like an angry child but still add no substance. Tell me why it was an insult.

Then stop being angry and answer the original question. How do you push through without money?

I went through the litany of hard work that needs to be done regardless of money. It is on YOU making it an insult. That is a you issue. You simply do not get to decide what I meant. It is a question you and Tom and Keith want to ignore. How do you keep going with no money.

Funny part is Reza started to answer it! Then you guys jump in and say I am installing him. You see it is a productive and informative queztion. You want to be upset and cry about a perceived insult. Reza cleared it up and moved on. As a pro seeing it for what it was, a genuine inquiry. Juwt because you can't manage to comprehend the question in no way makes it an insult.

And do you notice how I did all that without lashing back and insulting you?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Aug 15, 2016 09:49AM)
Danny please read what Nash said again, and again, and again. It is spot on.

We have real industry leaders like Reza, Shawn, and Dave Womack contributing to this thread. It would be nice if that would be the norm instead of the two ego-tripping regulars who insult almost everyone who posts on here.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 15, 2016 09:51AM)
More insulting and no contributing.

Funny how it is always the same ones insulting.

Again please answer my question.

Tell me how one thing I said about the realities of four walling a show is wrong in any way.

Or explain how what I said was wrong in any way in substance. You can't. So you insult as always. That seems more like an ego issue to me.

But to illustrate the point let me ask this.

I have the grades, I want to go to college. But without a family to pay for me to go through medical school how do I push through? Is that insulting? Parents and family pay for things all the time. Didn't a certain Vegas headliner start with some family funding and become a huge success? Why is that somehow insulting his success?

Yea Nash maybe actually reading what is written and not reading into what is written will help some.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 15, 2016 12:17PM)
[quote]On Aug 15, 2016, Nash wrote:
[quote]On Aug 13, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
I still want one of you to explain how a family helping is somehow am insult? You keep demanding apologies and making attacks and never manage an answer. [/quote]

I'm prob. gonna regret even bothering to speak my voice but ...
Please, spare us with your BS.
You use this board as an ego boast and even a teenager can see through your insecurity.
To be honest you're just an annoyance.
[/quote]

This is my absolute FAVORITE part of this board by the way. Nash how about you give us your psychology credentials? You have chosen to make complex diagnosis about insecurity and ego boast. (I assume you mean boost right?) Now back that up with some experience in psychology for me if you don't mind.

See my assumption, and it is an assumption mind you so if I am wrong I am sorry, is that you have NO credentials in psychology to even come CLOSE to making such a diagnosis based simply on what you want to read online. (I have a feeling if you had credentials "ego boast" might not have come out. Even when I Google the term it corrects to Ego Boost.)

People throw around pop psychology terms that they really don't know the definitions of and make a diagnosis of what they read online and assign tone or meaning when they have no clue. ALL tone is added by the reader in online communication and I am not in control of the tone YOU ADD to a post Nash. IF you thought I was taking shots at him or what not that is on you. Then when I DO clear it up, YOU tell me that I mean something else. How can one communicate with a guy who has only preconceived notions and won't back up and say "oh OK that is what you meant"? That is ALL on you, not on me.

See part of communication is on you. You have to pay attention and listen. I can't control that for you. It is not on me to make you comprehend or listen. I have told you what I wrote and what was meant. You CHOOSE to ignore it and attack me for it. It might be something to consider. Maybe the reason you are so annoyed is you simply don't listen. You have your truth and you go with that. Many here do, you are not alone. But when someone clears up what was said what would make you want to persist in believing something bad? I just don't get it.

People here do it CONSTANTLY. They carry grudges (As is seen on this very thread.), they keep old anger and old preconceived notions and yea it will hurt your ability to learn even more than not having a "rival".
Message: Posted by: Nash (Aug 16, 2016 12:26AM)
I'm not a psychologist but I am active in the mental health field, however, that's irrelevant.
You asked why it is insulting to imply someone's success is a result of family funding, I explained in details in my post so read it again if you want.
Again, if you really want to help with your great insight, while more than 1 person points out your communication style isn't helpful, maybe it is time to reflect?

But oh well, its an internet forum. You do what you want, moving on.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 16, 2016 12:50AM)
Maybe here is the issue. I NEVER implied or stated his success was a result of money. Obviously you need to read all my posts in this thread. The money is only a small part. There is a TON OF other work.

But again since that was not the implication in the least maybe your comprehension is the problem.

Oh and when it is the same guys ALWAYS stirring the pot I take it less seriously. And like I said it is also not my job to worry how to communicate with the hot house flowers. Either don't read the post or move along. It is that simple.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 16, 2016 01:11AM)
[quote]On Aug 13, 2016, magicreza wrote:
Just to set the record straight... my family never "funded" my career. They had the financial means to, but instead wanted to teach me how to start and run a business myself, from an early age. And I'm extremely grateful for that... even though I skinned my knees plenty of times in the process.

As far as Danny Doyle's viewpoint on Branson: it sounds pretty realistic and maybe even reflecting personal experience. In fact, I'm surprised I've never heard his name before. But I think he's right. For anyone coming into a saturated market run by ticket brokers... 4-walling without name recognition can be tough math. But there's different approaches. I started working in Branson at age 14 as an opening act, grunt, backstage hand, etc. just trying to learn the ropes. I took what I learned and hit the road to begin building a career. I didn't come back to town as a headliner until I had the ability to secure a guaranteed contract and the right venue. If someone invested big money into me early on, in hopes of fast-tracking that dream, they would have surely lost their investment.

If anyone has the itch to perform in Branson but isn't in a position to fund it themselves (or give up a steady pay-check) there's plenty of opportunities to perform as featured acts in different shows, theme parks, etc. Then once established, who knows what doors can open up when the time is right... [/quote]

Here was the response from Reza. Great insight, no offense taken simply set the record straight. Those looking to be offended for him are doing so for their own reasons and most are fairly obvious.

So go ahead and explain to me how it is offensive to have family invest in you Nash. Reza does not seem offended, probably because he knows what I was saying. Why not stop the stupid bickering? We have a guy who was giving insight and you guys want to stir trouble and call names.

There are 1,000 questions off the top of my head I think he would be amazing at answering about the business end. Not only in Branson but touring and logistics. Things nobody here even thinks about. So instead of the nonsense why not talk with the guy who Knows? I don't CARE HOW one is funded those things are a nightmare. Those are the things that separate good touring acts from really busy ones. You can't throw enough money at that stuff to be a success.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Aug 16, 2016 07:45AM)
It does seem that those with less experience in the topic being discussed seem to have the most difficulty reading Danny's posts and content with understanding.
Message: Posted by: Yehoshua (Aug 17, 2016 03:02PM)
O. M. G. .....nobody cares o_o.

Please stop destroying competent and helpful threads with mindless bickering.

This isn't just at Danny, this is at everyone who keeps tossing gasoline on the fire!

Words were typed, feelings were hurt. Suck it up, cub scouts, and move on!

If you want to bicker...take it to Skype.

The Magic Café is a place where "Magicians help Magicians". People looking for help shouldn't have to dig through pages of useless drivel to find what they're looking for. The internet is full of enough garbage.

Sheesh! ....if I wanted comment wars, I'd go to magic videos on YouTube.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 17, 2016 04:13PM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2016, Cafécheckers wrote:
It does seem that those with less experience in the topic being discussed seem to have the most difficulty reading Danny's posts and content with understanding. [/quote]

Yeah I agree and we see it more and more. Some people can realize that perhaps not all thread and topics are for them. If you can't comprehend or understand it or if it's over your head or not of interest to you, move on, as others have said why comment and take a helpful thread in such an off course direction? If it's not your cup of tea, cool. But why post negatively or post no actual or useful content? Members come here to see what's happening, what's being discussed and to learn. I do not understand the need to sabotage that.

I believe there are some here that ARE interested in producing their own shows, and ARE interested in the rarely talked about topic of funding. It can be one of the greatest obstacles and issues in doing your own show or standing between you and opportunity. Not everything here needs to be basic surface level stuff, some want deeper probing and discussions. I too would like to hear more about Reza and others thoughts on this.

I also think it will help David to get some insight into what areas and topics are of interest for any upcoming summits he may produce.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 17, 2016 04:28PM)
[quote]On Aug 17, 2016, Yehoshua wrote:
O. M. G. .....nobody cares o_o.

Please stop destroying competent and helpful threads with mindless bickering.

This isn't just at Danny, this is at everyone who keeps tossing gasoline on the fire!

Words were typed, feelings were hurt. Suck it up, cub scouts, and move on!

If you want to bicker...take it to Skype.

The Magic Café is a place where "Magicians help Magicians". People looking for help shouldn't have to dig through pages of useless drivel to find what they're looking for. The internet is full of enough garbage.

Sheesh! ....if I wanted comment wars, I'd go to magic videos on YouTube. [/quote]

Yea this.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Aug 17, 2016 06:38PM)
[quote]On Aug 13, 2016, magicreza wrote:. I took what I learned and hit the road to begin building a career. I didn't come back to town as a headliner until I had the ability to secure a guaranteed contract and the right venue. [/quote]

Back on topic - I found this interesting. Is this arrangement still considered 4 walling? Also, I was wondering if 4 Walling is harder or easier that it used to be. Is there ways to more economically promote to the masses than traditional means? How does current audience interests in attending such events compare to other times?

Really getting back to the original topic - for those who gave praise to the videos directed towards 4 walling, what specific piece(s) of information did you take away from it that inspired you to share your viewpoint?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 17, 2016 10:37PM)
I have no idea what Reza has as a specific deal.

4 walling is generally considered when you rant the room. That is all you get and the rest is up to you.

I know of few other than this in Branson. Some are 2 wall deals where they provide a room and you the show and you share expenses.

These are generalities and have nothing to do with Reza.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 19, 2016 09:40AM)
Yes see an add really isn't helpful LOL.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 19, 2016 10:26AM)
But that being said seeing a touring illusion show for $15 bucks is a STEAL. Paying $35 to see a touring illusion show is a great price. Those restored Vaudeville houses are amazing venues as well. If I was close I would Definately go.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 19, 2016 10:29AM)
Since this is the business section and Hugo brought up that it's not a 2/4 wall deal, it would be great for him to discuss the type of arrangement he uses for such acts if he's really interested in contributing to the topic.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 19, 2016 10:30AM)
In general terms, not anything specific to Reza.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 19, 2016 11:06AM)
Correct
Message: Posted by: Hugo (Aug 19, 2016 11:12AM)
What specifically do you wan to know, Mindpro?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 19, 2016 12:52PM)
Thanks for your willingness to share. I was thinking some basic input on the booking and arrangement itself (not asking for actual dollars or price.)

First, are you a promoter, agent, are you from the venue or are you part of or working for Reza?

Is this a flat-rate deal or a percentage split, or a buyout vs. percentage deal arrangement?

Is this a direct booking directly solicited by Reza or his team or via a PAC in-house or APAP associated booking?

Is this part of a cooperative booking or an isolated booking?

Of course any other specifics or business-related input of the arrangement you are willing to share and offer.

This can help offer some great insight and perspective to many here curious about such types of venues and bookings. Thanks!
Message: Posted by: Hugo (Aug 19, 2016 03:55PM)
Sure. You've been in this business for a long time, so I know that you're aware that management processes and contracts are as individual as the people who create them. However, for others who may view this conversation, I think it's wise to state from the start that my answers/opinions are specific only to me and the way that I do business. I don't want to get too specific about any one particular contract, but I will gladly discuss my business processes in general terms. A certain amount of discretion is required, as I'm sure you'll understand.

1) Yes, I'm a Producer/Director/Promoter at the venue.
2) Sometimes we book acts in at different percentages, but my personal preference is a flat-rate deal and a single-page contract with rider. It's simply easier for all involved.
3) I can't remember if we received promotional material prior to contacting his agency, but my recollection is that we found him through his website. We operate a year-round entertainment facility, so we're always on the lookout for productions that we can sell to our audiences.
4) It's an isolated booking for Sept. 9-10, 2016. However, as always, it could very well lead to additional bookings in the future.

One piece of candid business-related advice that I will offer, as it directly relates to your questions: The quality of promotional material is EXTREMELY important, and since we exist in the digital age, I'm talking mostly about websites. Probably the most convincing selling point for Reza's show was that he had a very nice, easy-to-navigate website. If you haven't seen it, you should: www.rezalive.com. On his site you will find a bio, schedule, promotional videos, merchandise, professional photos, references - EVERYTHING that he needs in order to sell himself AND make it easy for me to hire him. I cannot count how many entertainer websites I have visited that have broken links, spelling errors, obviously dated photos, fuzzy low-rez (and simply dull) videos, recommendations/blurbs from people who have been deceased for 20+ years, 1995 (or earlier!) layout/graphics/fonts, etc. With all of the low-cost and even FREE resources available to create an attractive, professional website, there really is NO EXCUSE for this. From my perspective as a producer, if you as a performer are lazy and inattentive to your own promotional material, this will most assuredly transfer to your stage performance. My humble advice: If you must choose, spend LESS on your magic tricks and MORE on your website and promotional material. It doesn't matter how good your act is if nobody ever SEES it.

If you, or someone you know, has an amazing theatrical act - and professional promotional material - and would like to be considered for future performance dates at our 279-seat historic theatre in Granbury TX, please pm me with a request and a link and I will gladly review your material to see if you might be right for our audiences.

I hope I was in some way helpful.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 19, 2016 04:31PM)
I have a lot of qestions actually. I don't want to seem like they are too pesonal so if at any point they are just don't answer no problem.

Do you sell tickets locally for the act or is the act the one responsile for press and such? It seems to me since it is not a 2 or a 4 wall deal you are simply bringing him in to do the show so it would make sense that you did all that yourself.

Are you part of a network of local theaters that allow for routing of an act?

Do you deal throgh agencies to bring in multiple acs? Do you brin in a series of sots?

What is the demographics of your mailin list?

I can think of 1,000 questions. I edited the money questions.

Thank you for the time you are taking to answer questions.
Message: Posted by: Hugo (Aug 19, 2016 06:05PM)
Not a problem, Danny.

1) Yes, we sell the tickets through our box office at the theatre and through our website http://granburytheatrecompany.org/. Check us out if you can. The artists do not sell tickets through their professional websites. Instead, the contracting organization handles the box office responsibilities. Regarding press, an act may provide us with some promotional material (video, photos, blurbs, etc), but we handle most of the local promotion through our website, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc. However, in addition to the venue's promotional efforts, every professional entertainer will also publicize his own gigs on his/her own website, and Reza is no exception. We are listed on his calendar under his tour dates. So, anyone who follows him via Twitter or Facebook will find his September 9-10 Granbury dates listed there too, and hopefully a link to our website where they can purchase tickets. This may help us sell tickets, but perhaps more importantly for his business, it tells his fans that he is WORKING, and further proves to other booking agents that he is a professional entertainer with a show worth seeing.

2) While we belong to several professional theatrical organizations (League of Regional Theatres, Southeastern Theatre Conference, etc), we are not part of a 'chain' or a 'circuit' of theatres. Although we often communicate with our fellow theatres regarding acts, we are independent and can book any entertainment that we feel we can sell to our audiences. However, many of us do book the same shows, especially if another theatre gives the artist a good reference.

3) We can and have brought in acts managed by the same agency, but not simply because they have the same representation. It sometimes happens that an agency will recommend an act that they think we would like, but we don't rely on such recommendations.

4) We offer a year-round schedule of performances of all kinds: popular Nashville recording artists, tribute bands, comedy acts, hypnotists, touring Broadway shows, local theatrical productions, and of course magic productions - anything that 279 patrons will pay to see on stage. Because of the eclectic nature of our offerings, our mailing list is composed of a variety of demographics.

Again, every venue will have their own process for booking talent, and perhaps have different responses to your questions.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 19, 2016 06:21PM)
Actually most of the local theaters I have dealt with have almost identical answers. Why mess with what works?

Sounds like a great place you run.
Message: Posted by: Hugo (Aug 19, 2016 06:32PM)
We like to think so! :) Someday I hope you'll get a chance to find out for yourself. Thanks for your kind comments.
Message: Posted by: MJE (Aug 19, 2016 10:29PM)
Just a note on the theater, itself. It's beautiful! I'm not sure when it was built, but it was before 1920. There are many theaters around the country that seem almost identical, so I suspect that the blueprints made the rounds back then. Many have been either restored or updated to more modern look and the Granbury is one of the nicest you'll find. Special care seems to have been taken to get the acoustics right, which is an issue in many of these theaters. I'm sure that there was some very interesting ceiling art as well as a huge chandelier at one time, but those are the only things missing now. They really did do an incredible restoration job!

If it were only an hour closer, we'd make visiting the Opera House habitual. I'm sure we can talk ourselves into the drive for the Reza show, at least!
Message: Posted by: Hugo (Aug 19, 2016 11:10PM)
Thanks so much for your compliments, MJE. I agree, the facility is both nostalgic and amazing. We'll have to see what we can do about starting a shuttle service to make your treck a little easier. :)

Hope to see you at the show!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 19, 2016 11:30PM)
The restored Vaudeville theaters are just amazing. There are so many of them through the Midwest. Usually run by people who care not only about live entertainment but the theater also.

Just amazing places to work.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 20, 2016 08:52AM)
Thanks Hugo for being willing to answer such questions and share your insights as I feel it is helpful to many here. I was trying to initially decide if you worked for Reza or the venue. Thanks for clearing it up.

I agree, you have a great venue. There are so many of these types of theaters across the U.S. that I have enjoyed playing and they all seem to have a similar story. The began as old Vaudeville theaters which is why most are located along/near a railroad line. They thrived in their day bringing in some of the top show business names of the day to audiences that came from all over the area. They became run down by the late 40's - early 60's at which time many were turned into movie houses. They did this for a decade or two and then came the trend of declaring these venues historical monuments or landmarks and these theaters began getting state and/or local preservation funding, some even private or local corporate funding for restoration and revitalization. Some were purchased by private owners, some by local groups and many by a civic authority or community group formed to operate after the revitalization. Each have a rich story indeed and many were desigend and bult by about 15-20 different architects and designers who seem to build many across the U.S.

In actuality your type of venue where you operate and book in-house are my favorite types of venues to play and work with. I love dealing with a venue direct. I have found each of these venues have a price range of their typical acts, with perhaps a bit larger for premiums or season kick-off events. One such theater I worked with for years would have me every year as the opening act for their season kick-off/unveiling (as I would also host the $500-$1000 a plate VIP after-party event with the headliner), where I worked with such great acts as the great George Burns (who actually played the theater in it's grand opening run), Tony Bennett, Steve Allen and Dionne Warwick (diva to the worst degree). These were beautiful, historical and you couldn't help feeling you were performing on a stage and in the footsteps of some of the greats who came before you.

I hope you and your theater are doing well. What do you say is the ratio (average) that you book as broken down into direct solicitation from the acts/artists, from agencies or from association or trade events that you attend? Just curious.

Also how do comedy acts and stand-up comedy show work at your venue? I've booked package shows of live stand-up comedy for theaters such as yours as some love them and welcome them and they do well, while others seem resistant and don't seem to get behind them. Again, just curious.

At any rate it is nice of you to share some insight and your thoughts on this type of venue and booking.

It didn't seem like a 2/4 wall arrangement from the beginning which is why I was asking such questions to distinguish that this was different than what we were discussing on that topic. I was trying to establish Reza doesn't seem to have a 2/4 wall advance team that goes out and does this, and that this type of venue and arrangement (yours in this example) is quite different than how towns like Branson work. Thanks for clarifying.

As long as we're on the topic, do you or your theater do any 2/4 deals if you were approached? I understand it may not be your typical business model, but if you were approached and it was a possible fit (and non-conflict) would you or have you done such arrangements in the past? Thanks again.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Aug 20, 2016 11:10AM)
I love reading about such interesting history and connection to the present. We have such a theater in my area and reading this inspired me to read the history of our local theater. It read exactly as described by Mindpro. As an added bonus, I discovered they(our local theater) is hosting a "Stooge Fest" tomorrow. Now I have something to look forward to.
Message: Posted by: Hugo (Aug 21, 2016 04:28AM)
I completely agree. The history and charm of the old performance halls are hard to resist. Seeing George Burns in such an intimate setting would indeed have been a special night! For any other history buffs, there is an interesting origin of the Granbury Opera House here: http://www.granburydepot.org/hale/1886to1911operahousehistory.htm

In answer to your questions, Mindpro: While working for other venues, I have hired acts from trade shows like NAMM, but currently I do not. Our entertainment selection process varies. Sometimes you spy an eye-catching promo pack in the morning mail, sometimes you see a production at another venue and surmise that it will play well at your own, sometimes a colleague or an agency or even a patron makes a suggestion, sometimes you stumble upon a website, and sometimes a human walks through your door and introduces himself. I've booked acts using all of these 'methods.' Unfortunately, I've never tracked which method sees the most success. Perhaps I should start.

As you say, comedy acts can be a bit tricky. We've seen most of our comic success from local comedy acts because they tend to have a legion of local followers, like the ones we have booked for the end of this month: 4 shows and all are SOLD OUT. We're a suburb of the 4th largest metropolitan area in the US, so there are several comedy clubs nearby. However, our venue is nearly triple the size of these rooms, so booking a random stand-up act would be risky for us.

The promo material that I reviewed for Reza's show focused primarily on the 'turnkey' benefits of his current touring production, so I don't think his agency would be pursuing 2/4 engagements with this particular tour. However, I could be wrong.

I certainly can't speak for the booking processes of all Branson theatres, but most that I am familiar with operate very similarly to our venue. Although, with so many theatres competing for the same patrons, I'm sure there are a variety of strategies at play. What differences are you seeing, Mindpro?

Yes, we have worked and do work 2/4 deals. In fact, we have a 4-wall engagement later this month. These contracts are the easiest for us, as we don't have to do anything except work the box office and perhaps provide a technical crew... and who doesn't enjoy a night off every now and then? :)
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 21, 2016 11:05PM)
I am seeing few venues in Branson, Las Vegas and in many other tourist areas paying for any talent, runs or lineups anymore. Sadly the majority (over 75-85%) are pay to play (or should I say pay to pray) venues. It has hurt the market, the quality of acts they draw, and ultimately a less satisfied customer experience. It also has a continuous after-effect that it becomes a revolving door with acts jumping to other venues each year and many leave town after one season IF they can make it that long.

The business model is greatly flawed, but it has evolved into venues wanting to be landlords collecting rents and not much more. They want the shows produced, promoted and staffed by the act. Of course most performers and acts aren't skilled in this so they often do terribly and soon that starts to affect the image and reputation of the venue. But when they find an act that has financial backing (often family money as this portion of the thread originally started to discuss) they will simply be willing to collect rent until the act finally runs out of money and/or fails.

It's so sad. As an agent, producer and promoter it does create opportunity for my companies at a glance on the surface, but there is such little support form the venues, it makes it not worth it, as it ends up costing us so much more money because we are having to staff and pay people to do part of what they venue typically provides. All of the risk is shifted to the performer, and we all know most entertainers aren't that great of business people. That's why there is a boom and demand in performers learning entertainment business.

Currently I can only think of two or three venues in Branson that aren't doing it that way. Danny would likely know better than I due to all of his work and connections in that town. Even the name acts have suffered and have left Branson, The name acts like The Osmonds, Larry Gatlin, Yakov Smirnoff, Tony Orlando, and so many more that were staple headliners are all gone - every one of them. Theaters are empty and closed permanently. Don't even get me started about here in Las Vegas!
Message: Posted by: Hugo (Aug 22, 2016 04:47PM)
That's interesting. There could be several reasons for such a change, but the obvious suggestion is that the current market simply makes it cheaper for them to rent their theatres than it is to produce a show themselves. Producing a theatrical show is never easy, as it requires the availability of various resources, including audience demand, competent actors, competent designers, and experienced theatre managers. A kink in the supply chain of any of these resources would force a theatre to adopt new business strategies. It's regrettable, but perhaps necessary for survival. However, these trends are usually cyclical, so at least there is HOPE.

I'll be in Branson next week, so I'll check with some of my contacts and find out what could be driving this change. Stay tuned. :)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 22, 2016 04:51PM)
Ticket sellers drive the trend it is that simple. I could go into why but it is the answer you will find.

Theaters are little more than landlords. Few have vested interest in the shows they have in.

It has been a sad slide downward.
There is nothing cyclical about this trend. It is there to stay.

The new attempt is for ticket sellers to buy theaters. Hasn't been a huge success yet so hopefully it goes away. One of the 2 for 1 places did it and it failed huge a few years ago. Last year one of the bigger sellers did it with a bigger name and didn't do well.

One did ok so in reality the jury is still out.
Message: Posted by: Gerry Walkowski (Aug 23, 2016 05:01AM)
Give or take 5 years, about when did things start to change?

Was it before or after the dot.com / housing bubble crash?

Gerry
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 23, 2016 08:47AM)
Oh way before that. It has been going on for well over 10 years.
Message: Posted by: Gerry Walkowski (Aug 23, 2016 03:36PM)
Per Wikipedia, the dot.com bust was between 1999-2001, and the housing bubble bust was between 2007-2009.

Maybe it was inevitable, but I tend to think that his massive loss of wealth during these time periods was at least a contributing factor in the way things changed in Branson and Las Vegas.

Gerry
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 23, 2016 03:38PM)
Not even close.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 23, 2016 04:19PM)
[quote]On Aug 23, 2016, Gerry Walkowski wrote:
Maybe it was inevitable, but I tend to think that his massive loss of wealth during these time periods was at least a contributing factor in the way things changed in Branson and Las Vegas.

Gerry [/quote]

While perhaps coincidental, I don't think they are at all related. God, patriotism, veterans and country music was and remains as strong as ever, which is what Branson is all about. The dot com and housing dump I don't believed had that much of an affect on any of these or Branson as much as perhaps other places. Vegas was strong throughout this. Sure it took a bit of a hit from lower to mid-American tourists, but many things continued to thrive and raise in price and growth remained during this time. The celebrity chef and world-premium restaurants STARTED in Vegas during these times. The nightclub boom in Vegas started during this time, and the crazy dayclubs/pool scene also started during this time. Some of these making $1,000,000 a day!

The problem with Branson was it was built on an unstable foundation. After the t.v. news story that solely created the instant boom, it's growth was based on a generation of performers who put up their own money for their own theaters. Fans came to them in their theaters rather than the performer having to go on and work the road. This was the foundation. They made a killing in a few short years, and when they decided to retire from performing they left town. When they and their money left town so did the boom. This business model and foundation no longer exists. All that remains are some of the original families that have performed there since the 60's and 70's and a handful of otherwise unknowns that have become Branson-area favorites. But even they are having the same struggles, even if they own their own theaters.

A new business model combined with a new generation is what it needs to prevail. The problem is it is an area that would rather sink than change.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Aug 23, 2016 04:33PM)
I agree and was about to say the real problem is, you can’t expect yesterdays headliners to be headliners forever.
I have nothing against the older performers, I love em all, but their fan base is growing smaller by the day.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 23, 2016 05:56PM)
Not the problem Tom.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Aug 23, 2016 07:48PM)
Pigeon Forge is an interesting area to watch... I've seen many shows come and go. Most of the shows are run be either "Dolly" (aka Herschend Entertainment who owns Silver Dollar City), who have the Dixie Stampede and a Lumberjack Show; or Fee Hedrick Entertainment. Fee Hedrick has the Comedy Barn, Black Bear Jamboree, Opry Theatre. The Opry Theatre has the "Opry" show, very Branson-like music and variety production, and Darren Romeo. Darren is in the middle of a 3 year stay. I'm not sure about Darren's deal with Fee Hedrick... they advertise the show under their brand "Magic Beyond Belief" (Which they have used in previous years with other magicians) but that doesn't mean it's not a 2-wall type of deal... but I'm pretty sure it's not a straight up 4-wall from Darren.

The only other major theatre is Country Tonight... they run a Branson style Country Music show as well. A few other smaller venues... Terry Evanswood has been there for years, 4-walling in a variety of venues, and even doing the "Magic Beyond Belief" deal for a while with Fee Hedrick. He's currently at Wonderworks in a pretty small theatre... I'm guessing he is 4-walling but again, not sure.

Not trying to make any specific point.. just throwing out some observations from the past few years of watching another touristy town with some theatre shows.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 23, 2016 08:13PM)
There are 2 families that run Pigeon Forge almost literally. It is an interesting market.

You are not wrong about what you are saying.
Message: Posted by: Hugo (Aug 24, 2016 02:52PM)
I'm sorry to say that I must retire from this thread, as some of my posts have 'mysteriously' disappeared. ...Not sure why...? Somewhat ironic since I recently hired a magician who contacted me via pm in direct response to my posts here in this thread.

It all seems rather counter-productive to me. But, alas, much of the magic business is.

At any rate, thanks for your conversation. I hope we meet through serendipitous circumstances in the future!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 24, 2016 06:43PM)
Why would anything you wrote be deleted? It was amazing information!
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 24, 2016 08:35PM)
[quote]On Aug 24, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
Why would anything you wrote be deleted? It was amazing information! [/quote]

Yeah, I am disappointed to as I was looking forward to your (Hugo's) thoughts after your visit to Branson.

I guess I do understand why the original post got deleted as it was a duplicate post (also posted elsewhere on the Café) and wasn't really in the proper forum here. Nonetheless, I enjoyed having a conversation with another industry professional and getting below the surface as it pertains to entertainment business and your area of specialty. I know it was interesting to many. It was also nice not to have it disrupted and derailed by others with nothing to contribute or an agenda.

I think it would be great for you to still join in here every once in a while, especially to hear how this Reza event ends up. Your insight was much appreciated.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Aug 24, 2016 09:14PM)
I was wondering how this thread got so far off topic, yes it has been good conversation but maybe it would be more appropriate to start a new thread on the topic of doing show in Branson, or doing shows in old restored vaudeville theaters, etc
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 24, 2016 09:40PM)
Why? It was and still is all part of the much discussed 2/4 wall podcast topic several were responding to and felt was a highlight from the Magic Master Summit. I don't believe it got off topic but rather finally a deeper discussion of something here.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Sep 13, 2016 12:11AM)
So how did the Texas shows go with Reza at Hugo's venue?
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Oct 23, 2017 10:07AM)
The 2017 dates (and speakers) have been announced, and people can watch certain lectures on certain dates for free.

Then after the event, online access will be available for a fee, as they did last year. I think they also sold a DVD set after the event last year, as well.

November 13-17, 2017 - Magic Master Summit 2017 (Free Online Magic Convention)

www.magicmastersummit.com

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Oct 23, 2017 10:55AM)
Further information on the 2017 event:

[quote]David DaVinci (aka David Womach):

Starting November 13, 2017 you will have FREE access to roughly six lectures each day. At 9AM EST it'll go live and you'll have 24 hours to watch those lectures, until it refreshes the next morning at 9AM EST with a completely new list of 6 lectures... and so on until the week is over. I'm quite frankly overwhelmed with the amazing content that my friends are giving away, and I hope you'll enjoy it, and benefit from it as much as I have.

Here's a sneak peak at the schedule!

November 13, 2017 - Day 1:
• Jeff McBride - Pack Small Play Anywhere!
• Michael Finney - Behind The Scenes Of A One-Man-Show
• Michael Trixx - Six Figure Income From $150 Shows!
• Jessica Jane Peterson - Secrets to Success in Entertainment
• Chris Randall - Overcoming Addictions To Achieve Higher Success

November 14, 2017 - Day 2:
• Garry Carson - How to Make $500,000 Per Year, Doing Fund Raising Shows!
• William Rader - Secrets to Making $1,000 In The Back Room of Restaurants
• Zach Zimmerman - Being Funny Onstage, Even If You're Not
• CustomMagicKits.com - Back Of Room Sales
• Eric Bedard - Secrets to Getting Booked To Entertain Celebrities!
• Murray SawChuck - Bonus Lecture!
• Jeff McBride Bonus Lecture - Bonus Lecture On Competitions

November 15, 2017 - Day 3:
• Tony Clark - Insider Secrets To The Business of Entertainment
• Greg Gleason - The Art of Touring Behind The Curtain Details
• Bill Gladwell - 2-Walling Secrets • 2.0 Troubleshooting
• Robert Kalina - How To Be The Act That Producers Look For
• Michael Stedman - FanCraft 2.0 To Grow Your Social Media
• Michael Trixx Bonus Lecture

November 16, 2017 - Day 4:
• Bizzaro - Creating Unique Masterpieces To Fit Your Character
• Lefty - Details, Direction, and Professionalism
• Chance Wolf - Turning Ordinary Tricks Into Miracles
• Andy Amyx - Photographing Magic & Putting Out Products
• Lauren Phillips - Production and Stage Managing For All Styles of Acts
• Garry Carson Bonus Lecture

November 17, 2017 - Day 5:
• Tobias Beckwith - Building and Managing Your Entertainment Business
• Niels Duinker - Brand Consistency To Better Serve Your Market
• Fielding West - Stagecraft 101
• Trevor and Lorena Watters - Working And Traveling As A Couple and Duo Act
• David DaVinci - How to Get $50,000 Worth of Free Publicity
• Andy Amyx Bonus Lecture

$1,000.00 Grand Prize Contest Update:
Don't forget to check your email after completing registration for some important information about the contest!

There are SO many amazing lectures coming up, so make sure you block your calendars, and get ready to boost your career!

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me. I look forward to serving you all!

Warmest Regards,
David DaVinci
[/quote]

Reminder - You have to register to get access.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: DaveWomach (Oct 23, 2017 02:22PM)
Thanks for posting this here! You mentioned that after the event it's free, but I just want to clarify. The event is free during the week of Nov 13-17 only. Afterwards it can be purchased (to help recoup the cost of putting it together and hosting it).

There are some amazing lectures this year, and I'm not just trying to hype it up! I'm really excited! See you all there!
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 23, 2017 02:38PM)
Best of luck for this year's event. I hope it works out well for you Dave.
Message: Posted by: Oscar999 (Oct 23, 2017 03:54PM)
Last year was awesome. I suspect this year will be just as good. I've already marked off the ones I want to check out!

Oscar
Message: Posted by: DaveWomach (Oct 23, 2017 08:11PM)
Thanks Oscar! Looking forward to having you be part of this year's event!
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Oct 30, 2017 01:39PM)
I am sure it looks to be as good, if not better then last years Summit. These are a must learn for anyone seriously interested in performing.

I do not see anything in he way of using music, and where to obtain and how to use music in an act to elevate it to a more professional level.
Message: Posted by: nabil (Nov 3, 2017 09:17AM)
Hey guys! If you have ever been interested in 2-walling and owning your own theater, David just added a 4-hour talk with me (split up into 2 sections) on how I did it, costly mistakes I've learned from, and general advice on the matter that I wish someone told me before I started...I'm hoping it will benefit someone out there! Here's an invitation video:

https://vimeo.com/240701230

(Video Password is "magicmasters")

Here's the link to sign up:

Don’t miss 30+ Free Presentations From More Than 26 Of The World's Experts Convening In One Place, With One Goal:
Elevate The Art Of Entertainment!
Registration is free, but you must register now!
http://magicmastersummit.com/2017?affiliate_id=848066
(Live event runs Nov 13-17) :bunny:
Message: Posted by: DaveWomach (Nov 4, 2017 02:35AM)
[quote]I do not see anything in he way of using music, and where to obtain and how to use music in an act to elevate it to a more professional level. [/quote]

Great suggestion. I don't have anything on it this year since it's such a personal choice... however, I'll certainly keep this in mind for next year!

Thanks!

Dave
Message: Posted by: nabil (Nov 13, 2017 02:49PM)
FYI everyone- day one is live now! It includes part 1 of my talk with Dave.
Message: Posted by: CR_Shelton (Nov 14, 2017 09:08AM)
Day 1 was great! Looking forward to my lecture next year: How I make 6 figures selling TTs to strangers in bars.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Nov 15, 2017 04:12PM)
This has been incredible so far this year.... True GOLD being given away.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 17, 2017 01:43PM)
Congratulations to Dave on another successful summit. I loved the production, look and feel of it this year, very nice. Hopefully it was well-attended and many found much great information and some useful and applicable advice to help in their own businesses. Such value for free or only a minimal investment in yourself and your business.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Nov 17, 2017 04:28PM)
I have to admit it was not so wonderful for me. Dave Womach's constant interruptions and taking the personality guest off topic and drifting away from what was the topic, was very annoying for me.

I took from it, Dave does not recognize that he is a success in his own right, and I really felt he was just trying to get information for himself, and not those that really need it.

His approach was totally different then last year's, and I felt, I was not getting the information the person was hoping to give.

I would have been interested in know how the promoter got to be a promoter, being he was a failure as a performer. With his attitude I don't see how he ever got anyone to work for him. I did catch, he is very difficult to get ahold of, and that may be his secret, as he is never available. The actual people that know how to talk to and treat people actually makes his business a success. Just did not like the guy, and his smirk he had throughout the interview.

This really missed the mark this year. Dave should have just done all the video topics himself.

Again, no props or examples to actually see. If Dave did not have those posters, we would have no examples of what they were talking about.

I once was invited to dinner by a famous magician. When I arrived, this guy I knew nothing about, or did not recognize him in any way, introduced himself and started talking. All through dinner, I was trying to converse with that actual person I was hoping to talk to. The other guy kept getting loud and interrupting with his nonsense. Long story short, I barely got to say hello to the actual person, and left with a lot opportunity.

This is how I felt with this years videos. So many lost opportunities to learn something I did not know previously.

Dave Womach, you are at the top of your career as a variety entertainer, I don't know what you consider as success, but I believe you have hit the top already.

Chance Wolf, why did you know turn off the camera and tell Chance, you would wait while he found the other working parts. Thinking about it, why didn't you do that with all of them. Again, they were totally not prepared for the interview.

If you want to know what the bottom looks like, get a job for a day at McDonald's.

I was so annoyed, I did not bother to watch, but 3 of them all the way through, most I gave up after half way.
Message: Posted by: CR_Shelton (Nov 17, 2017 07:26PM)
I sympathize with some of those comments, but on the whole I must disagree.

I didn't like every presenter. I wouldn't work with some of them at all. That's a useful thing to know about a person in my industry, if I didn't already. If you thought all or most of the presenters were unlikable people, then that's a real criticism of the coordination of the event. One or two that rub you the wrong way seems expected.

I also discovered some people I didn't know about (Zach Zimmerman!), and learned more about some who I only had a 'branded' image of in my head. (Michael Trixx! I'd seen his promos but would have never known that I would like to hang with him, until I saw his seminars) That's the treasure-hunt of these kinds of events, in my mind. The surprise gem makes up for the hyped let-down.

I agree that some of the presentations were loosely directed. I still found most of it to be valuable information even when it went off-topic. Dave isn't going to be a professional late-night host (At least not until he gets better at "to-doot to-doo"). That's not what I was looking for though. I liked the conversational nature of the presentations, even if I didn't like all the conversations. I had to turn off one interview because I disagreed with the way Dave was handling the topic and the things he was saying. So we have slightly different politics; That's ok. It was only one, out of dozens of presentations, and on the whole I'm comfortable learning from and watching anyone, even if we might not make great beer-buddies. I think you're asking for a very high-bar to be met, but I'll grant that if you were expecting solid and structured interviews, this isn't the series for you.

The thing I disagree with completely though, is your seeming resentfulness of David for wanting to improve his magic and career, just because you would be satisfied where he is now. I myself will never stop seeking new knowledge, sit back and tell myself "I've made it. This is the top." One of the most inspiring bits of this conference to me was hearing that sentiment explicitly affirmed over and over by not just working magicians, but highly respected magicians too. If Jeff McBride and Tony Clark are still improving, the top is a lot further than you're saying it is. I can not think of a single magician, or any artist, who is "at the top" and isn't working every day to get one step higher. I don't know what it must feel like to you, to not have that ambition and drive as an artist; but it feels like a case of sour grapes to me, for you to discourage others from embracing it.

I thank Dave, and all the people who presented, and those who worked behind the scenes. I left my day-jobs behind earlier this year to focus full-time on my magic business and starting a new theater company; This was just what I needed, at just the right time. I came away with a full notebook to dissect this weekend, a renewed enthusiasm for my work, and a bunch of real steps I can take right away to grow both my businesses. I already know the lecture I want to give, and set a goal that by applying everything I learned this week I'll be "successful" enough in a year or two that Dave will invite me.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 17, 2017 09:25PM)
[quote]On Nov 17, 2017, Bill Hegbli wrote:
I would have been interested in know how the promoter got to be a promoter, being he was a failure as a performer. With his attitude I don't see how he ever got anyone to work for him. I did catch, he is very difficult to get ahold of, and that may be his secret, as he is never available. The actual people that know how to talk to and treat people actually makes his business a success. Just did not like the guy, and his smirk he had throughout the interview.
[/quote]

Who was this Bill? Which interview was this? I didn't notice anything from a promoter. Perhaps I missed this.
Message: Posted by: Oscar999 (Nov 21, 2017 09:27AM)
I thought the conversations were fascinating and insightful.

I was very excited to see Jeff McBride, Michael Finney, Fielding West and Tony Clark. Plus, Gladwell's talk had plenty of good advice.

Tobias Beckworth was filled with great advice - like when he said that McBride tends to follow the money... go to the markets that are thriving when the business gets slow in one sector. Reminded me of the book, "Who Moved My Cheese."

My only critique on the subjects, if I could offer one... is that I don't feel that the corporate market was spotlighted with a heavy hitter that could've provided some inside intel on that area. Certainly, some of the guys worked corporate - but has a subject in and of itself it wasn't highlighted with a talk specifically for that market.

Aside from that, it was a fantastic summit and I thank David Davinci/Womack for putting it together.

Oscar
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Nov 22, 2017 06:55PM)
That is because there is so many meaning guys use for the word corporate work. As for real corporate work, there is many ways to get into it, but most all is "who you know, or get to know" and expert salesmanship on the performers part. Magician's just do not want to be salesmen.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Nov 22, 2017 06:58PM)
[quote]On Nov 17, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]On Nov 17, 2017, Bill Hegbli wrote:
I would have been interested in know how the promoter got to be a promoter, being he was a failure as a performer. With his attitude I don't see how he ever got anyone to work for him. I did catch, he is very difficult to get ahold of, and that may be his secret, as he is never available. The actual people that know how to talk to and treat people actually makes his business a success. Just did not like the guy, and his smirk he had throughout the interview.
[/quote]

Who was this Bill? Which interview was this? I didn't notice anything from a promoter. Perhaps I missed this. [/quote]

It was the promoter guy, don't remember his name, he had his shows and only looked to hire people to pretend to be magicians, or whatever he needed to present the show.

In my opinion, it had noting to do with magic or magicians. More like hiring an actor or dancer in a show he had all set, only needed someone to learn the lines and actions for the show.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Nov 22, 2017 08:20PM)
[quote]On Nov 22, 2017, Bill Hegbli wrote:

In my opinion, it had noting to do with magic or magicians. [/quote]

Well the summit was not just for magic or magicians, but the business of entertainment. It's probably good for everyone (magicians included) to realize that some real-life producers feel this way about magicians and variety performers. I missed the lecture you are talking about but it sounds interesting to me... if/when (I eventually bought last years so I'm sure I'll buy this years at some point) I buy the summit I'll be interested in taking a look at it.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Nov 23, 2017 11:57AM)
I just don't like this kind of work, they don't care if you are a magician or not, most likely if you would tell them you are a magician or have some knowledge in magic, they would not hire you.

The late Paul Osborne and others have done this, they have put together a show, and all they want is someone to do the work for $6 an a show.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Nov 23, 2017 01:52PM)
[quote]On Nov 21, 2017, Oscar999 wrote:

My only critique on the subjects, if I could offer one... is that I don't feel that the corporate market was spotlighted with a heavy hitter that could've provided some inside intel on that area. Certainly, some of the guys worked corporate - but has a subject in and of itself it wasn't highlighted with a talk specifically for that market.[/quote]

I watched Eric Bedard's talk on the 2017 Magic Master Summit. Although his topic was about the shows he does for celebrities, he also touched on corporate magic, and even some of the tricks he tailors to his customers / audiences. And the research he does in preparing for shows.

(Eric is a friend who lives locally, who I've known for a number of years. He travels internationally to perform.)

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 23, 2017 03:22PM)
[quote]On Nov 22, 2017, Bill Hegbli wrote:
[quote]On Nov 17, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]On Nov 17, 2017, Bill Hegbli wrote:
I would have been interested in know how the promoter got to be a promoter, being he was a failure as a performer. With his attitude I don't see how he ever got anyone to work for him. I did catch, he is very difficult to get ahold of, and that may be his secret, as he is never available. The actual people that know how to talk to and treat people actually makes his business a success. Just did not like the guy, and his smirk he had throughout the interview.
[/quote]

Who was this Bill? Which interview was this? I didn't notice anything from a promoter. Perhaps I missed this. [/quote]

It was the promoter guy, don't remember his name, he had his shows and only looked to hire people to pretend to be magicians, or whatever he needed to present the show.

In my opinion, it had noting to do with magic or magicians. More like hiring an actor or dancer in a show he had all set, only needed someone to learn the lines and actions for the show. [/quote]

Magicians have done this to themselves. All doing the same tricks in the same way with the same old tired line. Coming here and asking for the top five tricks for this or that is the next step. Then all garnering together on Gigmasters to further the perception of interchangeability really helped.

So how long was it before producers just found GOOD actors to deliver old tired lines to audiences? It is a natural progression if you ask me and one that is unfortunately promoted within the magic community itself.

Don Alan warned against back in the 80's talking about how he hasn't seen many young guys an agent can sell by saying "I have a guy who can_____". Fill in the blank on your own. It had been on the way for a long time. Cruise lines now often but multiple illusions and have the entertainment staff do them.

Hopefully the lesson is learned.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 23, 2017 05:19PM)
I agree with much of this. Part of the problem is the way magicians see and feel towards themselves and also how talent in general sees themselves. It is much different from a producer or promoter or even an agent/agency in that fact.

From an agent/agency's perspective and also the perspective of a producer, the reality is talent is the easy part to find, it is the clients and bookings that take and require the effort. To many magicians and other performers, they find a problem with this but as I always say, we MUST deal in complete honesty and the reality of things, not our own perceptions. This is very hard for magicians. They do not deal in complete honesty. Very few magicians are special or unique to the point that they create their own positioning and demand within the industry. Producer's and agencies know and understand this. Performers typically don't.

They'll say things like "I do a (insert name of trick here) and it is completely my own version of it." Perhaps it may be, but it is likely still the same trick to a layperson or audience that fails to see the nuances of your own and to them it is still the same as others.

Danny's line from Don Alan is so true. Sure blame it on the internet or all the the releases of the magic companies, but it is what it is. Practically every magician that does a rope routine, cups and balls, and sponge bunnies runs the risk of falling victim to this.

So then is it really the fault of the producers or agents? They only work from what they have to work with. I don't think many magicians realize this. Again, if you could sit in the chair next to me when I open mail and emails and view the demos we're sent, it becomes clearer than day. Same for watching demos on youtube. Most magicians won't ever see this, as they only see, think and operate from their own views and perspectives and rarely ever think or operate from an industry perspective. This could make the world of difference to many but still, most will never do it or even realize it. I also think this is the difference between older magicians and younger ones, is those that came up in magic before the information age boom, HAD to do things on their own (think, create) and were sincerely concerned with being seen as "a hack".

People (audiences) think the same thing every single time they see some about to get cut in half or go into a box to disappear and to reappears or go into a box with swords placed all around only to come out unscathed. Originality today means someone's new take on someone else's original work. Magic is in the state it is in because of MAGICIANS, not audiences!

Having worked with literally every type of performer available, magicians are truly their own breed and worst enemy, often in self-sabotaging ways. I agree magician's have done this to themselves.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 23, 2017 05:43PM)
I will also say, I do think some of the topic titles of the interviews were a bit misleading. I tuned into to several that were titled to be about the running and operating an entertainment business or creating a successful entertainment business when it clearly was not. Yet some interviews had content not mentioned that one would have no way of knowing about know about.

That is what happened with the example of Bill's above about the Promoter. I don't remember seeing one about a Promoter. If I would I would have certainly wanted it to be on the top of my list as few know as much about the business side of entertainment as Promoters.

The one thing that seemed part of every interview is regardless who the guest was and what the topic was about, it always seems to turn to the tricks and the magic itself. Magicians cannot not talk about the tricks! Even when questions or topics were about something else, they always have to talk about their tricks. No other type of performer does this - talk about the songs, or the caricatures, or the jokes, or their instrumentation, etc. Can't a magician talk about their career without talking about their tricks? Can't a mentalist talk about mentalism without talking about their effects? I get interviewed hundreds of times about being a hypnotist and rarely will I ever talk about the routines my subjects do when hypnotized. Only if the interviewer brings it up and even then I would avoid it.

I am curious if any members here are willing to share, what is it that attracted you to the Magic Master Summit? Was it a discussion about tricks, business aspects, producing, performance/stagecraft topics, specific topics like comedy and humor in magic, working with and hiring assistants and crew, traveling and working the road, or something else? I would really like to know this if you would be willing to share. It is no secret the demographic of The Magic Cage had changed in recent years. Along with this so has such interests. Add this to how the entire community has changed and affected by the internet, youtube and technology and there are many reasons for the changes. I understand interests are been subjective to each person, but what was your main interest or interests?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Nov 23, 2017 08:47PM)
MindPro, I totally agree some of the titles were mis-leading. Nabil's interviews (he has a 2-wall deal at a resort in Guam) was titled something like "Big Show Small Room" so I almost didn't watch it. I had forgotten that he, himself, had stopped by this section of the Café to let us know about his interview and it's subject.

What draws me to the summit? Hearing the business side of show business. To hear professionals in the business talk about the business in a pretty open and honest way is pretty unique. Hearing what works and doesn't work for real professionals is worth gold to me. My favorite interview that I heard was the Bill Gladwell interview. It literally felt, at times, that it was just 2 professionals sharing their past years experiences and discussing what did and didn't work and why. The entertainers who are talking about how they are producing their own shows and making it work (2-walling, fundraising shows, cruise ships, fairs and festivals, etc.) are the biggest draw for me.
Message: Posted by: Oscar999 (Nov 28, 2017 10:33AM)
@Mindpro - I tuned in to hear more about the business side of magic. Good question.

I'll also say, I thoroughly enjoyed the summit - but I agree with your assessment as well.

Oscar
Message: Posted by: Futureal (Dec 18, 2017 02:44AM)
I thought it was mostly a waste of time.

You had Michael Finney advertised as doing a talk on one man shows - that turned into a talk just about himself, which sure it's interesting but it's been covered both on his L+L set from the early 2000s and his Penguin Live Lecture from last year. So that was just a repeat of all of that and less than five minutes on actually doing a one man show, which was what was advertised.

You had Fielding West talking about stagecraft, this was good but it was really just a pitch for his stagecraft seminars, which is understandable but you can't even buy them online, they're only done in person. So he touched on a bunch of stuff but if you want the real work on it you have to go to his house in Vegas for a seminar, so that's useless for 90% of the people watching. He spoke about walking out on stage in the correct way for a few minutes and described it but didn't actually SHOW it, live or via video. A bit of planning and thought would have improved this.

Brad Ross, typical huckster stuff, pitching his own products, saying how great he is etc. David Davinci should have known better than to involve this guy. Just run a Café search to see what sort of problems his "Make Magic Money" clients have had dealing with him. And that's the tip of the iceberg, I see complaints about his ethics on Facebook all the time.

McBride, good as always.

Tony Clark, good as always.

Greg Gleason ... well I guess it's easy to finance a touring illusion show if you've got half a dozen friends who will all pitch in five figures to help you out on anything you want to do. That's how he got started he said. So again it was interesting in a biographical way but there's nothing here in terms of business ideas or nuts and bolts stuff. And the 80s called and they want their fashion and hairstyle back as well, Greg desperately needs a makeover.

Chris Randall's talk on overcoming addictions was weird. Go see a doctor if you have problems, not a magician.

For $200, I don't think it was good value. Sure people will say oh if you get one thing from it it's worth it, and yes that's true to a certain extent but look at Penguin Live Lectures ... they're three or four hours long in many instances and it's people tipping entire repertoires etc. If you want business ones then look at Bill Herz' lecture, Oz Pearlmans, Danny Orleans etc, they're full of real world stuff you'll actually use. The price point of those is what, twenty bucks? I'd put a fair price on this year's summit at $50.

Less is more David - if you do one again then work on getting LESS speakers but delivering more CONTENT out of them. If you pitch a speaker as speaking about a certain thing he needs to speak about that not just go into PR mode and talk about his life for 45 minutes, we're magicians we already know who these guys are and what they've done. We want to hear WHY and HOW. That's the point of a entertainers' business seminar.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 18, 2017 10:19AM)
Did you not watch Bill Gladwell and Garry Carson? Those 2 alone were worth $200 in my book. I agree on Jeff McBride being great, and I agree on Michael Finney being very lackluster (David tried to steer him on topic but he preferred to brag about hanging out with Jay Leno and such).

The Nabil interviews were a bit all over the place, but he gave ALOT of information about 2-walking his show in a resort.

It's fine if you don't like Brad Ross, but to question his business practices seems very unfair. I wasn't able to find anything doing a search on the Café like you suggested.
(Unless you count the cartoon money argument?).

It's odd that you compare the penguin lectures... They cost $20 a piece.... So for $200 you would get 10 lectures. But you say that 25 talks should be $50?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Dec 18, 2017 11:15AM)
I know you've mentioned this about Bill Gladwell several times now. What did you find so valuable about this? I found just the opposite as have several others I've discussed this with. Even Bill said his info hasn't been working for him, which is why he is without a gig/venue after trying (his own promoted methods) for over a year, and he seemed very unknowlagble about much of this interview and the questions asked by David. So what was so informative and valuable to you?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 18, 2017 11:42AM)
The fact that both Bill and David discussed exactly what they tried and how / why (to an extent) it failed. Im surprised you don't see the value in learning about those failures.

Mindpro... Do you feel the Summit as a whole was worth $200?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 18, 2017 12:53PM)
But what is learned FROM failure and how did you adjust to be successful is what I would think is important. If that is discussed it is gold.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 18, 2017 01:02PM)
[quote]On Dec 18, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
But what is learned FROM failure and how did you adjust to be successful is what I would think is important. If that is discussed it is gold. [/quote]

Agreed... that's what they were discussing and they talked about what they were both going to try next. Maybe next year we can find out how that worked out?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 18, 2017 01:32PM)
I'd be more interested in what has worked in this type of seminar. Not in hopes of what might work.

I mean look at the title of the event. They do sort of set an expectation. I didn't pay so I have no opinion that matters. Based only on what you have stated is all I'm talking about. I am not nor have ever said anything negative about the event.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 18, 2017 02:27PM)
Valid point of view...

I don't think the Summit is perfect by any means. I was just shocked to read such a negative review of the summit as a whole.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Dec 18, 2017 10:38PM)
[quote]On Dec 18, 2017, thomasR wrote:
The fact that both Bill and David discussed exactly what they tried and how / why (to an extent) it failed. Im surprised you don't see the value in learning about those failures.

Mindpro... Do you feel the Summit as a whole was worth $200? [/quote]


First, yes, I do feel it was worth $200. But I also believe it depends on what you hoped to get from it, your expectations and how much it delivered on those expectations and what you got out of it. I think there could be several things that could be seen as misleading which I can see why several may have felt this way. To me, a Summit is leaders in specific areas on a unified topic or theme. There were many guests, that while I feel might be good or even successful performers, it in no way means they are experts or authorities in what they do to the point of educating, teaching and training others.

Since you asked specifically about Bill, I felt David asked and addressed several great questions that many were asking and seeking answers to only to have Bill not truly answer or address them and in several cases be surprised at the results of others at all. He seemed to not address much specifically and offered only possible thoughts (hmm, is that right?). This is a prime example of someone who last year people were listening to and accepting as an authority who knew what he was talking about. People took this information, spent and invested money and took this information and perhaps tried to do this themselves. I stated at the time it was very minimal and basic info on the topic and much was missing. I think this years showed exactly that and even he didn't have the answers. I also had an extreme example of this in Las Vegas last year from this exact example happening.

The format of most Summits is an event that features a variety of experts speaking on individual topics within a specific format, which in this case was the business of entertainment. It seemed like many were not experts or specialists in their specified areas, but rather just performers that spoke on a specific topic based on their own personal experience. Very few were coaches, trainers, or true authorities in their area of specialty. They just spoke about their own experiences. Yes, others can learn from the stories and experiences of others, but it is nowhere the same as learning from an expert, coach or trainer. Take McBride for example, yes he is a performer, and he is also a coach, teacher, trainer and operated from this perspective. Yet you look at most others, take Gladwell for example, he really only shared his own experience, which was very basic from his very minimal experience. There is a big difference. As he said, he is still struggling with it himself.

Again, to me, I feel the information offered and shared on a Summit should be real, true bankable information taught by experienced and credible leaders, not just performers telling their versions how they did it. I am also surprised that many (other than Brad Ross) didn't have programs, books or trainings available on their topics for a more complete education.

Yes, the failures could have been beneficial IF they broke them down - told what happened and why it failed and what or how to learn from it or how to exactly correct it to get the desired or optimal results.

I agree with Danny, I don't care to hear about what "they might TRY to do next". When offering information/education you should know what went wrong, why and exactly what to do to correct it. I don't care to pay for speculation, I'm paying for correct, real-world, applicable information.

To me, this is the exact same here in Tricky Business. There is advice, insight and information shared from opinion or personal experience, then there is industry-specific information offered and presented from actual real world, continual and consistent experience by those that specialize in educating and training others. Again, two hugely different things.

Nabil's was very hard to listen to, but I'm glad you felt it offered some useful information. Also HOW the information is presented is important and this could have been greatly improved in some of the interviews. It took me days to get through this interview (both parts total). Again, I am positive the reason for this is again, these are not educators or trainers, just performers talking about themselves and their experiences.


Yes, I felt it was worth the price as there was some information that most should have found helpful, and others stories are interesting to others, but not the true reason, purpose or value of a Summit. But I was disappointed in several interviews as well as the information was not what I had expected or believed to be intended.

I think this is one of the reasons it may not have lived up to expectations from some. This combined with the topics of many of the guests often was misleading and not a true coverage of the topic specifically from an entertainment business perspective, could be seen as off-putting for some as we have seen here.

I think this is also part of a larger problem with magic and mentalism. People are listening to other performers attempts and experiences, rather than separating that from learning from those skilled, experienced and specializing in teaching, training and coaching others. Again two hugely different things.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 18, 2017 11:50PM)
That's an excellent assessment, Mindpro.

To further my thoughts on the Bill and David interview... I agree Bill's not an expert. But Bill and David are both professional entertainers who have attempted to self-produce a 2-wall show. So for me, hearing them discuss these situations in some detail is very interesting and helpful. Same for Nabil, although I agree his interview was difficult to get through.

Is there any material out there by experts on producing your own show?
Message: Posted by: Christian & Katalina (Dec 19, 2017 06:23AM)
Another person's perspective.

I have enjoyed both years of watching the Magic Master Summit. I believe that this might be the way people will experience some "magic conventions" of the future. Many times we just want information. We don't need all of the pomp and circumstance that comes with paying for flight, hotel rooms, food, and all the other expenses that come with a standard magic conventions. Penguin magic has surly changed the Lecture Game with their downloadable lectures. That being said not everything at a magic convention or the Magic Master Summit is going to be a home run for you.

I agree with so much of what mindpro as already stated. Just like magic tricks we so many times want the instant, no effort solution to our problem. What, I might have to practice or gather additional information to make something work? I recently was talking to one young magician who wanted to work on Cruise Ships. I told him about Fred Becker's course. He response was disheartening. "I'm not going to pay $2000 for that, isn't there some $40 book I can buy"? He has not yet learned that you get what you pay for.

The Magic Master Summit is a sampling of ideas and concepts to help magicians grow as a business. No one is going to learn how to set up a specific business model in a short 90 minute video. If that is what you are hoping for then you have over estimated what what is possible. It would be akin to thinking that you will be a master magician after watching a 3 hour DVD set. What the MMS does do is expose you to ideas that you didn't know existed.

Is it worth the $200? yes! Of course, it also depends on where you are in your career path. We are fond of saying in the magic world, "If you get one trick out of the book, then it is worth it". I could easily say the same thing about MMS. If you found one idea that helps you land a single gig worth $1000 then how is it not worth the price?

I did not watch all the classes but I will highlight a couple. Yes, Nabil's classes where a little tough to get through, however, if you paid attention, he gave away a great deal of information. There were so many things he said that were pure gold. He didn't give you a step by step class on how to 4 wall, what he did do is explain many of the aspects that you will need to contend with if you decide to go that route. You can't expect to be spoon fed a business model for $200. But he did give you enough to send you in the right direction.

I did not expect to like Micheal Trixx's lecture. However, I found him extremely likable. His business model is not going to appeal to everyone. However, it is completely doable. Once again, he did not give you a step by step but if you understand the concept, you should be able to figure out the rest on your own. I also completely enjoyed his learning curve on working outdoors. I do not work outdoors but I could easily watch a class from him on that subject.

There was another performer whom I was looking forward to watching, I found him boring and lackluster. I found his information superficial and a bit self aggrandizing. However, I talked with other people who loved his talk. Its all about perspective and where you are on your career arc.

Is it worth $200. Well, many would easily pay $1000 dollars in expenses to go to a magic convention with only a 1/4 of the classes. Soooo . . .
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 19, 2017 09:01AM)
[quote]On Dec 18, 2017, thomasR wrote:
That's an excellent assessment, Mindpro.

To further my thoughts on the Bill and David interview... I agree Bill's not an expert. But Bill and David are both professional entertainers who have attempted to self-produce a 2-wall show. So for me, hearing them discuss these situations in some detail is very interesting and helpful. Same for Nabil, although I agree his interview was difficult to get through.

Is there any material out there by experts on producing your own show? [/quote]

I think it is ironic that when we try to discuss the pitfalls of self production here we are met with such resistance and push back and when one pays 200 bucks it is worth listening to. We always get told we are mean or wrong or discouraging new guys. Nobody ever wants to talk about it here.

All anyone wants is to encourage the brotherhood and tell them everything will be OK. You yourself have stomped us out from trying to tell people about what it really takes to self produce.

Several times we have tried to have this discussion and been shut down and told we don't know what we are talking about by the local foremost authority. Again you yourself have participated in shouting us down. Either that or we hear how everyone has an opinion and it is valid.

Is there material out there in self producing? Not anything I would recommend. Most of the material out there might as well be titled "Lightning in a Bottle", because that is what it amounts to. A guy getting lucky and not seeing it as that. Or mommy and daddy gave me money until I was a success. Nothing necessarily wrong with that but it pre supposes having parents or whoever to do so.

Yes in other words you HAD 2 very good sources for self production right here giving it away for free, or trying to for years. Guys who failed WAY more than once. (Well at least I did.) Guys who then tried new ideas and failed. Then learned and went through all that process.

Mindpro covers much of it in coaching I believe. But in spite of that is very generous with information here.

I just tell people when asked. The only problem is being able to listen.

It will be interesting to see the push back this post gets.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 19, 2017 09:51AM)
Danny... It's not the pitfalls of self production that some of us (yes me included) push back on... It's when you talk down to others in very degrading way.
One of my first interactions on this part of the board I asked Mindpro a question about a complaint his agency got because a performer didn't do the full act from the demo tape. My answer from Mindpro was that I didn't comprehend the business and the point he was trying to make if I was asking such a question. So yeah, that was my first experience...

It also annoys me when a good conversation is happening... Such as in this thread, and a simple question that I asked is met with a personal attack from you. Was that necessary? Does it further enhance the discussion we were having above? Or does it derail this thread the way most threads get derailed in this section?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 19, 2017 11:06AM)
It shows the problem with this section. When met with evidence of what you personally do to hamper the very activity you desire you take no responsibility, take no step back, take no time to ponder. You PUSH BACK YET AGAIN.

Now you then tell those who have the information you seek how they must impart it to you. Where does this arrogance come from?

Also I have said a thousand times that tone of a post is added by the reader. What you claim is talking down is a simple recitation of fact. YOU decide it is talking down. Then you further assume it is an attack, and you push back and a thread is derailed.

Does this information enhance this thread? Only if you learn something about the nature of the problem. But if you keep doing what you just did, which is your history, then no. It is up to you. It could enhance every thread here if you and the guys misinterpreting figure this out.

You can hold on to and be angry about your first experience or move on.

Or you can push back harder. Up to you. This has not been an attack but rather a teachable moment.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Dec 19, 2017 11:09AM)
[quote]On Dec 18, 2017, thomasR wrote:
Is there any material out there by experts on producing your own show? [/quote]


No, there isn't as far as I'm concerned. The best you may find is what has been discussed, simply someone's own experienced which is almost always limited, incomplete nd usually unstructured. This is why I started a project on this. As with most of my material, they started because nothing decent or real was avaiable on the subject. The one thing that constantly amazed me from everyone I've spoken to on this is the fact that there is not such a resource available. I think this is why I received such praise and support for the project. Unfortunately as Danny so eloquently pointed out, it will not be made available when completed for $40 or $100. In reality such content would be worth far more, which knowing this community, only few would be wiling to support. So then it becomes the question of do I want to go through all of this effort for a small handful that will "get it" and be willing to invest in this information?

In reality this is part of what I have been coaching and training for years, with many paying $10k, $25K or more for, so this also becomes an issue from a business position.

I think this current topic and example also shows that not all information is the same. What two guys offer in a discussion of their limited expeirence and knowlegde is far different from an all-encompassing, systemized content based on decades of real-world, applicable information offered from an industry point of view. The people to study and learn from are not performers who have done or attepted to do their own 2/4 wall deal or self-produced shows, it is the Promoters who's entire existance and operations are based on this day in and day out. In my research for my book and system, Interviewed the guys that first brought the Beatles in Conceet to America/LA, and also who promoted Led Zepplin in first coming to America, the guy who single-ghandedly cretaed the now famosus forumula which made the Harlem Globetrotters a worldwide sensation for nealry 100 years. Elvis' brainchild(s), the Ringling Circus, and many Vegas and Branson celebrities and headliners. These are who you want to learn from. So much of it is who you choose to listen to.

Just for reference I would like to see the thread where I "insulted you" for asking such a question about the demo. I remember the discussion as it happens so rarley and I was sharing a real-world example. Seems to me this was taken out of context the way you detail it, but I would like to revisit it if you would be willing to point it out to me. I think there is a confusion of someone's professional insight being seen or accepted as "a personal attack." This is also sonething you rarely hear from professionals, but seems to happen more from amatuers or those in the beginning stages of our industry, so I would like to see this again as I'm sure you can understand.

I also think what you interpret as "talking down to others" is simply your perception of it, when in relaity it is simply the differnce of people operating on differnet levels. Danny's point comes into play here as well. Only those that get offered or receive such information for free ever complain of this. I deal with any that pay handsomely for such information that never have such thoughts or perceptions. In reality, it is just the opposite. I regularly hear (almost daily) speciifc priase of thanks and the value of the information I'm sharing/willing to share, how it has made them tens of thousands of dollars, a better life for their families, made them better performers, better business men and women, and so much more. They are amazed at the fact there is no negativity, because they see and are invested in the reality not their own uneducated perception of what they think it is. They become emersed in what it really is.

The one thing I hear consistetly is "wow, you are not at all how others on the Café make you out to be." I always only laugh. Reality is often much different that percepton based on incomplete information or opinion.

Another ironic thing to these recent posts in this thread is the inclusion of Christisan and Katalina. Here are two people that changed their entire busiess model to an almost 100% (primarily) 4 walling model. They have been quite successful for obver 5 years now with their show. It is people like this I would study, listen to every word they say, regardless of you it is delivered or interpreted by yourself, as they are the real deal. They know the game pitfalls, warts and all. They would be someone who I would interview and include for my project. The problem is, and might I say this is also one of the most unapreciated and undesappreciated aspect of Danny and myslef here on the Café, is truth be told, most successful people DO NOT want to share ther insight, secrets and knowledge. They have spent years, sometimes decades, not to mention tens or in some cases hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn this themselves the hard way. Do you think they are just willng to give this away just for the asking? Or even for $100 or $1,000? He** no! Most wouldnlt either. This is another reason why when someone with actual experience and the goods is willing to talk or share, it should be identified and you (not just you) should listen to every word offered.

I agree with what Danny said aboui us getting shut down on some very benefical and insightful topics. I have been asked to review Tricky Business for 2017. For the last several weeks I have revisited very single thread from 2017 for this and I saw it more times this year than ever before in the past. Topics that could have offered a plethora and wealth of valuable information, completley shut down becuase of personal opinion, agenda and this type of perceptions.

I also agree that learning entertainment business principles and strategies is much different from learning a trick or effect. And it should be. Business should not be plug and play or self-working as many today think, wish and hope/prefer it should be. It should also not be solely based on one's own personal experience (unless uneathing something revolutionary or completely new) or their personal opinion. 99% of the times one's personal opinions are incomplete and often wrong. Is this what you want our busienss based upon? Incompelte and uneducated, inexperienced opionion? Most when they really and honestly (there's that evasive principle again) get down to it, do not.

I know this came up in the fairs thread this year and I said, yes, what I train, teach and coach is not anything that is commonly out there and the few aspects that are are taken to a ccomplety dffernt level that has never been done before. Some (their personal opinion) failed to believe it. Fine, their loss and limiting beliefs. Yet others were picqued and acted on such interest and I can tell you in the several months since then are now living what they thought to be comletley impossible or "unbelievable" jsut a short time before. As much as many do not weant to hear it, it is their own limiting beliefs, opinions, perceptions and defensiveness that are the greatest factors holding themsleves back and preventing growth or imprvement or success.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Dec 19, 2017 11:12AM)
[quote]On Dec 19, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
It shows the problem with this section. When met with evidence of what you personally do to hamper the very activity you desire you take no responsibility, take no step back, take no time to ponder. You PUSH BACK YET AGAIN.

Now you then tell those who have the information you seek how they must impart it to you. Where does this arrogance come from?
[/quote]

We must have been posting at the same time. I have also noticed in going back over the year of threads, the CONTEXT (sadly) is also interpreted by the reader. Soooo many times the context was received not as offered or intended, but as interpretd by the reader (opiion over fact again) which cretaes the basis for exactly what you just ststaed above.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 19, 2017 12:06PM)
Very good points Mindpro.

I'll try to find the thread I referenced... You did eventually answer my question in that thread. And that very idea did help in my communication with Clients and with the artists I hire so they would know what I and the client expected (specific acts, and even specific costumes). This wasn't something that I had entirely overlooked, but I had not put as much attention on until that thread.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 19, 2017 12:10PM)
Danny.... Ok I'll try to work on that. Deal?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 19, 2017 12:29PM)
[quote]On Dec 19, 2017, thomasR wrote:
Danny.... Ok I'll try to work on that. Deal? [/quote]

To be fair I don't believe for a second it is only a "you" problem. I believe all of us do it. I believe one other thing we do is bring old grudges to these discussions to one degree or another and that is not helpful in the least.

And again I DO think it helps not only this thread but all of them if this is kept in mind.

But in short deal. But I am saying I will work on it too, not just you if that makes any sense? It won't work if it is a one way street.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Dec 19, 2017 08:39PM)
Glad to see this thread didn't get derailed like most. It's quite refreshing to see and even prompted me to post while waiting for my flight back to the states. Merry Christmas everyone and happy new year.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Dec 20, 2017 10:34AM)
[quote]On Dec 19, 2017, thomasR wrote:
Very good points Mindpro.

I'll try to find the thread I referenced... You did eventually answer my question in that thread. And that very idea did help in my communication with Clients and with the artists I hire so they would know what I and the client expected (specific acts, and even specific costumes). This wasn't something that I had entirely overlooked, but I had not put as much attention on until that thread. [/quote]

I actually found the thread, no worries.
Message: Posted by: DaveWomach (Jun 27, 2018 12:53PM)
[quote]On Dec 18, 2017, Futureal wrote:
I thought it was mostly a waste of time.
[/quote]

Wow Futureal! Well clearly we can't all be as ambitious as you. It's people like you that make me not want to spend my time and money putting these stuff together. I guess we'll leave it to the real pros to find value in this, instead of hacks like you who can't appreciate true value, but have no hesitation to rip it apart on a forum where you can be hidden from a face to face conversation.

I look forward to reading all about your success and learn from your wisdom ol' wise one.