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joeyjojo Regular user uruguay 126 Posts 
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These points make much sense. the only thing that doesn't is that you feel the need to apologize for being offensive to people who were offensive in their own tone. |
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bloodyjack Veteran user Seattle WA 343 Posts
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I have never seen this D-lite routine but I have seen Jeff McBrides new D-lite routine and if it is anything close to that then as a electronics design engineer by trade I can tell you that the price is steep but justified. Nobody but a working Pro would want it anyway its a stage effect.
Stop spending so much time whining and utilise the time and effort in creating your own routines. It does not matter what you spend it will not make you better only you can do that and droping vast amounts of money on the latest and greatest will not improve your act.
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
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Regan.JPG "View Profile"){kind=avatar} Inner circle U.S.A. 5726 Posts
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I do create my own routines. I am very proud of many of them. I am a singer/songwriter so I have also written many songs, many musical compositions and a lot of poetry. I believe I can see this issue, at least somewhat from both sides. In fact, I think my strongest asset is my creative ability. I do realize that the creator deserves fair compensation. I also realize that magic is a particularly difficult field for the inventor because of a small market, knock offs, etc. I am not whining, just trying to make some points to ponder.
Regan
Mister Mystery
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bloodyjack Veteran user Seattle WA 343 Posts
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Quote:
On 2004-09-03 12:44, Mister Mystery wrote: MM I was not pointing the whining finger at you or anyone else on this thread just the general tone of the whole thing.
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts
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When I was young, I went into a magic shop. There weren't glass counters filled with stuff, in fact, although old posters and 8 x 10's were on the wall and strange magic props were on shelves, there was nothing with a price tag, and no signs identifying anything.
The gruff old guy behind the counter greeted me with, "What do you want?" "I'm looking for a billiard ball holder." "What do you want to do with that?" "I want to use it to steal a billiard ball." "You do billiard balls? Let me see something." He gave me a ball and shell, and I did some moves. After watching for a minute without any expression, he said, "Yeah, I got one somewhere" and turned and went rummaging through some cardboard boxes. He came back with some bent wire soldered on a safety pin. "What's it worth to you?" "A lot." "It's 45 dollars." I must have looked really crestfallen. He said, "How much you got?" I said fifteen dollars. "You give me fifteen for this?" I said, "Sure." He tossed it on the counter. "Its yours. Two bucks." It was Al Flosso. If you don't think a thumbtip is actually worth a thousand dollars, then you don't understand the value of a thumbtip. It is not just pricing the thumbtip out of the reach of the beginner, it is a matter of recognizing the true value of the item. The thumbtip is way underpriced, and undervalued by most. If you don't think that $1000 is a fair price, I really don't think you should own one. It is only because of the cheap availability of the thumbtip, and the concurrent awareness of the prop on the part of non-magicians and dabblers, that its value has been diminished. It would be worth the high price if its existence and uses were known only to the pros and sincerest of amateurs. |
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Regan Inner circle U.S.A. 5726 Posts
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I don't believe I said it wasn't worth it. It may indeed be worth it, so to speak, to some. I know collectors that buy guitars and pay astronomical prices for them. To me, they are not worth it, but to some I guess they are. Unfortunately, this drives the price up for everyone else. Now there are other good, quality guitars available and affordable that are very similar to the collector's models, so it works out ok. But what if there weren't any lower priced models?
It's hard to put an actual value on certain things for certain situations. Just like the life-saving drug senario I mentioned earlier. If you were dying but could buy a medication that would save your life, how much would that medication be worth to you? You can't really put a value on cartain things by saying this is worth x amount of dollars. I do believe that there would be many less magicians, great and otherwise, if all magical apperatus were priced accordingly. Regan
Mister Mystery
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Harry Murphy Inner circle Maryland 5445 Posts
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And having fewer magicians would be a bad thing?
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
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Regan Inner circle U.S.A. 5726 Posts
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Now that you mention it Harry, if this would have prevented the masked magician from getting into magic, it might have been a good thing.
Regan
Mister Mystery
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bloodyjack Veteran user Seattle WA 343 Posts
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I got this as a private post
re: I intend to make a small run of 25 units and the cost of the chips alone in those kind of quantities is 50 time what it would be in thousands off. What if someone bought one...and shipped it off for mass duplication? Then where would you be? How would you feel? Perhaps the gang might like to know? -Jon That is the risk that all the creators of effects take and 9 times out of ten the do get ripped off by copies. Here is a real world story The company I work for had our products ripped off by a German who had them made in China. We have patents so took him to court 2 years and 0ne million in legal fees and the judge just decided that all they had to do was change the colour of there’s and they could carry on making cheaper rip offs. We got no compensation. The outcome, we had to sack 700 manufacturing people here in the States and have our products made in sweat shops in China too so that we could be competitive with them. As a company we just have to come out with new stuff our adverts for our latest product has in big bold letters "Let the reverse engineering begin"
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts
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Look at what happened to Kevin James and his cut-off hand illusion. It was a major piece of his act, and a great and clever illusion. He decided to sell it at a fair price to other magicians, but it was ripped off by the manufacturer in Hong Kong and sold all over the world as a Halloween toy. It was ruined as a magic trick, and as a part of his show.
I think that the marketing methods and pricing that Bob Kohler is experimenting with may be the right way to go for a lot of us. If we want to share at all, we have to find a way to protect the value of the properties. Having your hard won ideas disseminated so widely and cheaply makes them of little value to anyone, and can even destroy their original value to the creator, as in Kevin James' illusion. Look at all the rip-offs of Martin Lewis Cardiographic. Does Martin get a piece of any of this? No. Take someone's original painting, draw a mustache on it, and sell it as an improvement. In response to Regan's comments, I just have to say that no great magician would have been stopped from becoming a magician because he couldn't afford the props. Nothing could stop them. That is why they are great. Making it more difficult for people to get into magic is not a bad thing. It should be something of a rite of passage as it used to be. And not to keep people like Valentino out, either. At least he paid his dues, and was a talented sleight of hand artist. What he did was deplorable, but he certainly was, and is, an excellent magician. What I would like to see is some protectiveness among the brethren of our best secrets, and not the wholesale distribution of anything that the market wants at a price that diminishes its value. |
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bloodyjack Veteran user Seattle WA 343 Posts
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I saw Simon Drake in England do the hand illusion way back in the early 80,s and on the HBO Whitesnake special. Is it this guy called Kevin James original?
I assumed Simon came up with it.
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts
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It is Kevin James'.
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pikacrd Veteran user Florida 387 Posts
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Quote:
"What's it worth to you?" "A lot." "It's 45 dollars." I must have looked really crestfallen. He said, "How much you got?" I said fifteen dollars. "You give me fifteen for this?" I said, "Sure." He tossed it on the counter. "Its yours. Two bucks." I have just spent the last 40 minutes reading this thread and I believe that this was the single best thing that I have read. Mr. Haydn I will have to tell you that I am not your biggest fan, but this is almost exactly how I got my start in magic, and I have a tremendous amount of new found respect for what you are saying in this simple story. I think that if more magicians had to work for “it” I mean really work for it there would be far fewer magicians giving away what others have worked so hard to create. Ours is an art that takes time and dedication, but it is also a business and a lot of us depend on it to make our livings or supplement our incomes. The old timers “got it” and that is why they did not give it away. Should magic be free? In my opinion no! Should it be cheap? No because cheap implies poor quality. Should everyone be able to spend $4,500 on a trick this is not for me to decide, but I got into magic because of the exclusivity, I have had to work and pay my dues go gather some of that exclusivity and learn the secrets, and believe me I have paid for it along the way. All in all does the creator have the right to charge $4,500 for a trick? Yup he does! What you have to do now is go out and do your homework to decide if spending $4,500 is what you want to do. How much is the trick worth to you and what are you willing to spend to find out? Think about Mr. Haydn’s story it is deeper than what is on the surface. Good Luck and Great Magic to you all.
“Indubitably, Magic is one of the subtlest and most difficult of the sciences and arts. There is more opportunity for errors of comprehension, judgment and practice than in any other branch of physics”. William S. Burroughs 1914-1997 American Writer
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bloodyjack Veteran user Seattle WA 343 Posts
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Kevin James did I stand corrected it was only an assumsion of mine because I saw it such a long time ago. A couple of years ago I saw the china copy in a gift shop and it saddened me then. Simon did a bit in the Whitesnake concert were he grabbed the guitarist cut of his hands and played the guitar solo with them. It was quite amusing.
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts
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Pikacrd:
I love that quote from Burroughs. Couldn't agree with you more in your statements, and think it kind of sad that the bar of entry into this craft has been lowered so much over the years. No one seems to feel that there should be dues to be paid. I look forward to a time when magic falls from popularity again, and becomes the odd and rare thing it once was. For those of you who will still be with me working in the field then, salute! And fan or no, please everyone call me Whit. I am not yet quite ready for geezerdom. |
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bloodyjack Veteran user Seattle WA 343 Posts
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I am losing it
It was Iron Maidon not Whitesnake I have the DVD its kinda cheesy but I like some of the illusions. I use Simons Knife through arm it looks great. You can still get the DVD at Amazon.com for only 13 bucks.
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts
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I remember in the sixties when many broke through the fences to get into the rock concerts for free, yelling "The music belongs to the people." I didn't agree with that then, or now.
However, I do miss the time when rock and roll was not about money. The huge profits came in, and a lot of the art went out. "With Usury comes no art." --Ezra Pound |
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cheesewrestler Inner circle Chicago 1157 Posts
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Well, there I was all siding with Whit Haydn and everything and then he comes out with that $1000 thumbtip comment - "because that's what it's really worth."
Phooey. You can go into a bookstore & buy a copy of "Hamlet" or the "Iliad" or "Of Time and the River" for 5 dollars or so. I can just somebody going into Whit's Book Emporium ... "I'm looking for a copy of "For Whom the Bell Tolls, I hear it's really good." "Sure kid - that'll be $10,000." "?!?!?" "Hey - if you don't want to pay its True Value, shove off." |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts
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Cheesewrestler:
You are looking at things from the consumers viewpoint, not the creators. A book of Shakespeare's plays is like buying a ticket to a magic show. What would Shakespeare have given for a word processor? |
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pikacrd Veteran user Florida 387 Posts
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Cheese,
I think that you may be missing the point of what was said. I think what Mr. Haydn (I am a little old fashioned so I will continue to refer to him as Mr. Haydn as that I do not know him personally) is getting at is that this is a tool in our art. Just because you can buy a tip for $3 on-line at the mega magic shop does not mean that it is the value of the tool. I will make reference to the Sushi Masters in Japan they pay thousands of dollars for there knives (one knife can run over 10k no joke), but they value them as much as they value anything in the world some of them can not put a value on that tool. This is what is missing in the magic community today, a respect for the value of what we do and the tools that we use to get the job done. Historically and I am not talking in the last 10 years here, magicians were considered top entertainers who were summoned by kings and queens to perform; today Fox TV can pay a half rate Vegas lounge magician to give the secrets away for nothing. In order for us not to become victims of ourselves we need to collectively take a step back and re-evaluate where we are at as a community. This is of course just my opinion and may not be popular with everyone here in the café. I do not believe that magic should not be thought to new comers to the art, I just believe that it needs to be tempered. Like any great craft dedication needs to be applied and the passing of knowledge needs to be earned.
“Indubitably, Magic is one of the subtlest and most difficult of the sciences and arts. There is more opportunity for errors of comprehension, judgment and practice than in any other branch of physics”. William S. Burroughs 1914-1997 American Writer
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Posted: Sep 3, 2004 04:28 pm 
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