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CoolMAgic4U Loyal user New York 205 Posts |
YEAH WHAT REED SAID!....
EXCELLENT Post Reed.....could't of said it better myself........
CoolMagic4U---aka---Ed
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Aperazor Loyal user Akron,Ohio 244 Posts |
Great post Reed,
I remember when I first seen your 13 coin matrix, I was blown away and never once wondered what your motivation was, even after learning the effect I was still blown away...hell it's been a year now that I have been practicing this marvel and I still haven't been concerned with your motivation. Thanks for some great material and a very nicely worded post. Overall I really enjoy all the posts in this forum and have learned alot,thanks to everyone who contributes regardless of whether I agree or not. All the best Nick |
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DVA Regular user 142 Posts |
Actually Reed you are one of the ones that I think misses it completely. It isn't about us. It really isn't about the magic either. It's about them, our audiences. I know, what works for you won't necessarily work for me. My style and your style are very different. I am only basing this opinion on the material you have released to the fraternity. I have not seen you work live yet. As I know you have not seen me.
However discussions on theory and direction (it's definately about making them percieve what I want them to) aren't idiotic. Understanding these ideas can push the art much further than learning a new palm production. I'm sorry maybe if you thought about those ideas instead of dismissing them as idiotic you wouldn't be making pictures of flags out of coins. Of course there are a lot of people here that would disagree with me and think that this really is pushing coin magic forward. I do not. This is only my opinion but there is little theatrical value in producing large numbers of coins. Maybe you can explain the reason to me. What does it give your spectators? What does it leave them with? Do you, Like Jimmy Grippo leave the coins on the table when you're done? That has impact. You are giving them something you apparently created from nothing. With the exception of the Grippo effect, Gertner's routine which was already mentioned and Mr. Dill's routine I have yet to see one that made sense thematically. Dill's effect as I have seen it is presented with no patter. It exists for the art of it. I can appreciate that. I would have to see it done live for a group of laymen to say whether it has value in that arena. Now to the matter of passing judgement on these performers. I've been a working pro for over 10 years. I have a successful magic business as well as a marketing and branding consultancy. You could say I'm in the business of understanding people. Over the years the main thing that I've learned from both areas is it is never about me. It's always about them. I don't think I'm passing judgement on them only offering an opinion that differs from yours and obviously theirs. I will also say that if I have misinterpreted your post in any way the fault lies with me. I should mention for the sake of completeness The Miser's Dream probably should get the nod as the precursor effect. Close-up guys just borrowed the idea. The best version I've seen of that is McBride's. It isn't about him or the coins. It's about the kid. Brilliant. |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Ever see Flosso's Miser's Dream? It's where McBride's came from.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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John Pezzullo Veteran user Sydney AUSTRALIA 354 Posts |
Words of wisdom from Paul Gertner:
"Many times over the past twenty years that I have been performing this routine, I have seen magicians perform similar routines perhaps producing more coins or larger coins, but all the while missing the pacing and timing that creates the real impact. In magic, what you do and how you do it are very important, but what brings magic into the miracle state involves when you do it as well." - "Steel and Silver" [1994]
"One arrow. One life."
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Sure on can take a musical approach to this visual medium.
One can also take a more theatrical approach. Consider the story of The Sorcerer's Apprentice, most notably the version in the Disney film Fantasia. And get ready for a lot of laughs. With a nod to Fred Kaps, Dai Vernon et al
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Reed McClintock V.I.P. 772 Posts |
Well you are probably right, But I have never said it was about me, never has been. It has always been about them. At the end of the day and all is said and done I do my thing you do yours. Magic is at an impasse with me honestly. You can say I miss the point, and again you are probably right, I often do I am not as intellectual as most magicians. I find doing what FEELS right for me and from an entertainment standpoint works well for me also. I often find watching magicians, they do what feels right from a DVD instead of discovering they’re own timing and ideology along with motivation.
I am simply saying why does it all have to be more complex than what it really is just tricks. Of course this argument can live as it has for years before you and I. I just think from where I stand, Magic is falling short of its maximum potential. All these guys doing tricks no one in the world relates to. The new fad I have noticed is add zero presentation and zero personality just mirror what you see because the reaction base is no different than watching a guy with real skill unless they perform side by side, then people see the quality not the quantity. How many guys buy a Svengali deck at the local magic shop and call themselves magicians today? I feel youre post is a sort of challenge to me. Why, our styles are different as you state. So wouldn’t it be like comparing apples to oranges. Your better I am better, not really just different .Some people like me, some don’t, and some are indifferent. I put the ball back in your court. I sit in neutral air space now. I know whom I am and what I am trying to accomplish in my magic how many can say the same. I don’t have to tell people how long I have been doing magic to prove my point; I just do my thing and still get paid for it. While the bickering and bantering goes on about who is great good or sucks, I am getting paid to do my little tricks that work well for me. I offer the magic I create as a new source for those interested, certainly not say look at me but as a gesture to share to the "fraternity " that gave some much to me. I remember a few years ago caring so much what magician’s thought of me and trying to please them. When in reality it was making me miserable. Today I please my audience and myself; magicians are the least of my feelings towards this art of magic. I realize now more than ever that magic to me is different than most involved today. I am going for more than the effect. I am striving for emotional completeness to the ride as a whole. Again I probably miss the point and that’s ok it works for me. Thank you for your insight and I appreciate your ability to make your self more important than my ideas and me. You are right. I am just a guy that does magic for fun and a living that perhaps is not as grand as most but I enjoy what it has afforded me like my new house and Jeep grand cherokee loredo, stocks, bonds, paid for education,trips to europe, comfortable vacations, and the latest a magic bar that I am building for the guy that I have been working for, for the last four years. next my very own place that I will own. all in due time. bragging no, keeping my eyes on the prize yes. taking care of my family absolutly. Direction and focus tricks are just tricks perfectly executed or not. Reed |
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DVA Regular user 142 Posts |
I only mean to challenge you in the aspect of your thinking.
You asked in your first post: Quote:
Getting more to the point who are you to pass judgment on a magician that does an effect as beautiful as Deans explosion or Paces thirteen coins. I was simply explaining who I am and my qualifications to have an informed opinion. That isn't bragging it is your fault for assuming I need to brag. I don't, that's why you know me as "DVA". Quote:
I am simply saying why does it all have to be more complex than what it really is just tricks. Of course this argument can live as it has for years before you and I. So is that any reason to stop discussing it? If you aren't happy with the answers proposed thus far maybe there is a better one out there. The points you over simplify are very important things to consider. I don't believe that what we do "is just tricks". If that is your opinion get a new hobby or in your case a profession. We are giving a gift to our audience, we are sharing something very personal to ourselves with them. That's why I don't think you get it. Look whether you like it or not there are young magicians who are going to emulate you because of the products you have released. You have become a role model. What you say can and will affect young people. Quote:
I see people on these boards talk theory, from the armchair but at conventions when called to the floor most just make excuses for why they don’t perform, why they blow the effect, etc. Stop critiquing and get busy doing something better than anyone else. Talking theory isn't pointless. Take Juan Tamariz for example. He can do more than most magicians, Ive seen him hold court at FISM with some of the most knowledgeable men in the industry. He spends a great deal of time thinking about the things you dismissed as idiotic. Further it isn't important whether or not someone can perform in front of a group of magicians. For some people this is a hobby. They enjoy the mental exercise these problems provide for them. You and I thrive on performing. That's why I also act and do stand-up and improvisational comedy. I am quite sure you and I approach magic differently. I would guess you approach it from a methodological view then put in the presentation (note I said that I am guessing this is how you do it I don't know). I approach it from a thematic or presentational view then find mechanics to fit what I need to accomplish. The really cool thing is that we both love the art. It has permeated our lives to the point where we now defend our ideological positions with fervor. The only reason I bring our approches to magic into view is that I think it has a direct impact on what we deem as valuable in relation to the art. I do not question your desire to achieve something better for magic and I too feel that magical ideas have become for the moment stagnant. Thank you for your post and stimulating the discussion futher. |
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mike gallo Inner circle 1341 Posts |
And where does your dad's massive coins-under-cards production fit in? And Ray Mertz's "cups and balls with coins and cards"?
Curtis, The old man (Lou, not Vernon...LOL)was inspired by an effect called "Passing the Buck" by Tom Osborn, as well as an Effect by Walt Rollins called "Tops, Middles, and Bottoms". Passing the buck is interesting as it has a matrix type effect which predates matrix. Ray Mertz's C&B w/ C&C's stems from some ideas that my Dad and another local magician named Billy Dunn had. They never worked out a method that satisfied them...Ray took the concept and applied Vernons cups and balls to it...Hope that helps! Mike |
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foolsnobody Special user Buffalo, NY 843 Posts |
I am kind of with Reed on this one despite the fact that I will never have the chops to perform magic for people. Because I *suck* I have to get into "presentation" "magic as an art form" and all that baloney. It really is, you know. Well maybe a minor art form.
If you're young and flexible well you can work on your art and make it be something worth watching, but if you're an old fart like me you are limited by what you already know. Yes, I could learn new cutting edge stuff but I could never execute it, especially in the coin realm. In the card realm I might appreciate Xtreme flourishing but I will never be able to do it. I can barely do a Charlier cut any more. Here's the deal. I may have to try to earn a living doing mediocre magic (or performing mediocre boring covers of other musicians' creative work on guitar and vocal.) In other words I am one of the mediocre losers who have no right to call themselves a performer. But I might have to do it anyway. We ca't all be hot shots on the cutting edge of creativity. Sometimes I think you gen-X-ers and younger just want to see us pathetic boomers die of well-earned cancers and coronaries and just get the heck off the planet so you egotistical pr*cks can have the planet all to yourselves. (Actually I really like that "kick*ss" attitude. I just can't "kik it.") |
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garcia00 Elite user 443 Posts |
Gertner did the ridiculous routine at a lecture I attended in late 70's/early 80's. Did the steel cups and balls too. Excellent
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10cardsdown Special user Out There Somewhere 664 Posts |
I think the Miser's Dream pre-dates all of these routines. These are variations of the Miser's Dream. It seems the argument is which came first, the chicken or the egg? It doesn't really matter, does it?
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-01-17 08:41, 10cardsdown wrote: YES, NO, YES, you might enjoy coming back to this post after you have some background on the matter and perhaps after discovering a few things on your own... bye for now
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Cpontz Special user Daupin PA 553 Posts |
Very Interesting Thread! Reed said
"While there is so much new material far surpassing the work of ROTH, Ammar, Daryl, and Harris? . . . Most are hard pressed to work on anything that requires hours of practice and dedication for a perfectly executed effect. . . Magicians are stuck there are only a handful going forward and they are sticking together. The secrets are starting to be held back more and more, if you haven’t asked yourself why perhaps you will begin to." My question is: Who are the coin magicians that are going forward? I know that there are many like myself who willinging put in the hours of hard work to create or learn (and perfect) difficult effects. As a follow up question: How, if your not in the "click" are you to help the art of coin magic go forward? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
You don't need or honestly want to be in any cliques to make new coin magic.
After you have some novel material you like, just attend a convention and show a few people.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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KirkG Inner circle 1391 Posts |
Just for the record, I have watched three different people perform Explosion, both for magicians and lay people. In all cases except one, everyone was impressed and amazed and other than the magicians, no one needed to touch the coins. The one exception was a poorly done rendition. He needed much more practice. Some people never get that point.
So, yes Explosion kills! I have seen it done silently to music and with patter and it doesn't matter. As long as it is presented well, it kills! I have also see artful expressions of "just" Shadow coins or matric from Andrew Goldenhirsh and Armondo Lucero. Both of these killed as well. Kirk |
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bloodyjack Veteran user Seattle WA 343 Posts |
Quote:
My question is: Who are the coin magicians that are going forward? After seeing Reed perform for laypeople in a packed goth club. I would say Reed. I have never been quite so amazed by a show of magic than Reeds coin thing. Not only is this guy an expert sleight of hand master but he thinks the stuff out for himself rather than copying a DVD parrot fashion, and to boot he is the only close-up artist I have seen that does theme his presentation and genuinely connects with his audiance. Most competent close-up artist are self-absorbed jack offs therefore I see the theming point, but there are always exceptions to a rule.
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
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sleightofhander Special user 618 Posts |
Congradulations on your achievements afforded from your magic Reed. I admire that ability. Wish I could say the same for myself. For now magic is just a hobby.
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Cpontz Special user Daupin PA 553 Posts |
Thanks for the advice Jonanthan. I've done that to a point. Made the mistake of trying to show some of my creations to David Roth after he did a lecture. Bad timing. He watched and was polite, but there were a lot of people who wanted to talk to him.
Also did some of my coin routines in close up competitions at a couple of local conventions. Won originality awards twice and got a lot of good feedback and comments. You are probably right about not wanting to be in 'cliques'. The satisfaction of creating original routines or coin slights and seeing spectators reactions and knowing that you have enterained them makes it all worthwhile. |
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bsears Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 1040 Posts |
It has been my experience that audiences LOVE routines such as the ones discussed. I also find it facinating that so much of the artist and his intentions breaks through the mechanics during such displays. That is what we are talking about here right?
The potential for emotional impact is very real. I've seen a magician openly weep watching Dean do explosion. Not because of the coins! Because of Dean's USE of the coins in showing the audience something beautiful. We can strive for nothing higher in what we do. |
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