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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-02-21 16:07, Dorian Rhodell wrote: Word.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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NeoMagic Inner circle I have... 2017 Posts |
Just read this in the Encyclopedia of Card Tricks (p.117):
"The first double backed cards put on the market were used in the trick called 'Two Card Monte,' and sold by Theodore L. Deland about the year 1910. However I have reason to believe that the principle was known to and used by Hofzinser many years ago."
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Yep, whenever I think of gaffed cards I always think of Hofzinser first. I thought it might be that old or even older.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Andrei Veteran user Romania 353 Posts |
Wsduncan and Dorian - great posts.
Andrei |
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wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
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On 2006-02-21 16:22, NeoMagic wrote: That reason might have been reading what Hofzinser wrote... |
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T. Joseph O'Malley Inner circle Canada 1937 Posts |
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On 2006-02-21 17:04, wsduncan wrote: Which is one good reason to read old books...
tjo'
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Cain Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 1550 Posts |
I am reminded of a rather profound comment from the great contemporary philosopher Bernard Williams. Although the context is slightly different, the idea applies to Steve Martin's claims. Perhaps change "want" to "learn":
"What one wants, or is capable of wanting, is itself the function of numerous social forces, and importantly rests on a sense of what is possible. Many a potential desire fails to become an express preference because the thought is absent that it would ever be possible to achieve." You cannot possibly transport yourself back to Houdini's time, the outlook and beliefs of that period, bracket out your own socialization, and then respond as "Steve Martin." Indeed, you wouldn't even be you. This reminds me of the Christians who claim that had they been born in America circa the 1300s, they would have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."
Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!" |
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NeoMagic Inner circle I have... 2017 Posts |
^ Well said!
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Aubrey_T Regular user Paso Robles 175 Posts |
Quote:
This reminds me of the Christians who claim that had they been born in America circa the 1300s, they would have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Huh? |
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Andrei Veteran user Romania 353 Posts |
Aubrey - the social context in which you live has a most important influence on your current beliefs and personality. Had you (by "you" I mean the genetic, baby "you") been born 700 years ago, you probably would have very very different opinions on religion, ethnicity, philosophy etc etc. Indeed, my point might be entirely moot, as a 700 year-ago "you" is not at all "you".
This is why we study Greek philosophers, for instance. Not so much because their ideas were brilliant (because, when compared to some of the more sophisticated, modern views on the world, they do seem a little inferior) but because they rose out of a context which was so technologically inferior to today's standards. In other words, those people are an example of what 'clever' is, because they transcended their surroundings. This is why I respect the guy who invented the wheel. Cheers, guy, wherever you are! Going back to magic, now, it's not so difficult to understand how Houdini was so badly fooled by Vernon, keeping in mind his expectations as well as the availability of knowledge with regard to moves, at the time. In the Revelations video series, Vernon mentions he once had quite a few DB's all around his person, in different pockets. That way, he could do his trick impromptu, and thus baffle even those 'in the know' with regard to some of the moves. Andrei EDIT: I assume Audrey wasn't refering to the historic imprecisions regarding the "1300" date. |
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Aubrey_T Regular user Paso Robles 175 Posts |
Yes to both accounts. I would defininitely agree with you another count according to the nature of the time. Secrets were not so readily traded back in the day. Of course they suffered from "loose lips" as we do today but people were more apt to keep something to themselves as they truly understood that knowledge is power. So many little things were kept secret so that this way you have a one up on someone else.
On the other basis, lots of people would assume Jesus Christ as there Lord and Savior today but that is based more on knowledge than deception. Many others are deceived otherwise to beleieve we came from nothing. But shall we digress from theology and revert back to the discussion of Houdini being a sucker |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Is this the famous story where Houdini was so enreaged he pants'd Vernon in the lobby?
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Aubrey_T Regular user Paso Robles 175 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-02-21 19:53, MagicChris wrote: No no that was at the SAM convention. |
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Christopher Williams Inner circle Portsmouth, UK 4464 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-02-21 12:21, AJOJRF wrote: The DB goes 2nd, you turn a single over to show their card, then turn a double over. As for this topic, 3 times he may have been fooled, but they might have just been 3 phases of the ACR. First time has could have just been caught of guard, the 2nd time, Vernon might have used the DB, and also with the 3rd. Houdini might have figured it out on the 4th attempt, and no-one will EVER really know, as the people that were there are sadly no longer with us. And it gets like chinese whispers in the end, people add and edit parts and it becomes a story of make beleive in the end, twisting the truth |
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T. Joseph O'Malley Inner circle Canada 1937 Posts |
Guys, I don't believe it was an ACR specifically as we know it today - meaning using any means possible to get the card back to the top whilst putting it in the middle of the deck. I believe that, according to written sources, Vernon OPENLY placed the signed card under the DB card, as the 2nd card - he did not pretend to put the card in the centre of the pack.
In the Vernon Chronicles, #4, he writes "I did a version of what is now known as the Ambitious Card eight times and he had no idea of how it had been done." (the he being Houdini). Please note that he mentions ACR, but refers to it as a "version" of what is now called ACR. He goes on to write "I had him initial a card on the face to identify it as his and then turned it face down. I very slowly placed it under the top card...making it now the second card down. I snapped my fingers over the deck and then very slowly turned over the top card and it was his initialed card!" etc etc. Vernon makes no reference to the tilt/illusion of depth move, and the fact that he slowly placed it under the top card insinuates pretty overtly that he was openly placing the signed card under the top card (the DB). In other words, Houdini should have been completely aware that the card was going in under the top card. I write this because everyone seems to believe that Houdini was fooled by some multiphase ACR routine or by the "tilt" move. It wasn't really either of those things, if you believe what is written. It sounds as if Vernon was saying it was a version of that, but that he apparantly did the exact same sequence 8 times in a row. Not exactly our standard modern day ACR. Was Vernon telling the truth? Who knows. But his is the only eyewitness account, so I'll believe him. I tried to verify the alleged "pantsing", but I'll have to keep searching for info on that one!
tjo'
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mc_magi Special user Vancouver, BC 949 Posts |
Mr. Jim Steinmyer (Im sorry if there are any spelling mistakes) says in his HIding the Elephant book
"Houdini was a terrible magician" and by description of it, doesn't look like Mr Houdini was a very talented magician either - he was a great escape artist, but other than that... I would like to believe differently but that's what I read. Is it true? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Yes, I believe you read it.
He was a great showman, self promoter and a talented escape artist.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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T. Joseph O'Malley Inner circle Canada 1937 Posts |
As mentioned before, that's pretty much what Vernon had to say about Houdini as well. And since many magicians are terrible showmen, and poor escape artists, there's no shame in Houdini being a poor magician, but great at those other things. As for self-promoting, well it's a valuable but potentially irritating skill oftentimes.
tjo'
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NeoMagic Inner circle I have... 2017 Posts |
For Vernon on Houdini, see also:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......6&24 http://geniimagazine.com/forum/cgi-bin/u......01441;p=
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Steve Martin Inner circle 1119 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-02-21 12:21, AJOJRF wrote: Thanks - I think you understood what I was saying. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 2006-02-21 12:27, hobbymagic wrote: Steve: Since you are so perceptive, have you figured out all of Cyril's illusions? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I haven't even seen them, let alone figured them out. What is the relevance of your question?
Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking.
Albert Einstein |
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