Originally meant to post this in the thread on effects in Mnemonica, but I got carried away.

I'm suffering a bout of analysis paralysis. I realize the same tired question arises in threads on the memorized deck: Which stack should learn? The answers vary, but the best one usually asks, "Well, what do YOU want to accomplish." I'm not big on gambling routines, and these seem to figure prominently into the major contenders for my attention, Aronson and Tamariz. Most of the really good effects seem to be stack independent: Mnemonicosis, any card at any number, Everybody's Lazy, Zen Master, Shufflebored variations (including Control in the Chaos).

Now, what I do like about Mnemonica is that you can get it from stack order (SO) to new deck order (NO) (I'm not so big on going from NO to SO). This would be incredibele for a triumph routine. Or I could do Play it Straight (Triumph), a wonderful trick I have not done in ages.

I have _Mnemonica_ (only browsed it as I've been putting this off) and I picked up the third DVD of _Sessions with Simon_, which contains, if I recall correctly, only two effects specific to the Aronson stack: the Henry Christ four ace trick and Routine Maintaince. These are attractive tricks because they preserve the stack, but Bannon's impromptu take on the former in _Dear Mr. Fantasy_ (with the Solomon Question Mark revelation) is at least as strong. Beyond Fabulous, which requires the tiniest, easiest stack, is insanely powerful. Routine Maintaince is a gambling effect that I sort of like, but I've noticed Tamariz has better stuff, though the ease of the Aronson trick is what I like. It's good enough, in my opinion. As much as I would like to deal any poker hand named... I'm just not THAT in to poker.

One final consideration. I think there's also a bit of a horse race aspect here. Even if people have currently discovered more tricks lurking in the Aronson stack, from what I've gathered it appears the Tamariz stack has been rapidly winning peoples' interest. Which is not to say the best is yet to come, but that it has some indescribable oomph. I've leaned back and forth, like a soda machine about to tip over. Clearly, right now I'm leaning toward the Mnemonica stack.

Any help of any kind is greatly appreciated.

ETA: For poeple once in a similar situation, what made you choose the stack you did? What was the most compelling reason? The advantages? Interestingly, I doubt if anyone has regretted their choice, which makes me want to flip a coin.

Same old answer: don't worry it, just do it

Jack Shalom

Cain,

I've memorized two stacks: Osterlind's BCS and the Tamariz stack. (BTW, Tamariz's "one afternoon" method was, to me, painful and tedious and didn't work well for me. Since I know the basic memory system stuff, I found it much easier and less painful to just use that.)

Having memorized the Tamariz stack, you know what? I'm tempted to forget it and memorize Aronson. Here's why.

1. There's something unnatural about the Tamariz stack that bugs me. Know what it is? NO PAIRS. I noticed it the first time I set up a deck in Mnemonica order and did a ribbon spread. Is this something that any spectator will ever notice? Probably not, at least not on a conscious level. Does it look unnatural to me? Absolutely. BCS has multiple pairs and Aronson has just one. (Of course, there're no tricks "packed" into BCS.)

2. Having read through Mnemonica, memorized the stack, and played with it, I'm struck by the sameness of the effects available with it. They really do seem all like 95% of them fall into three categories: poker deals, the production of four-of-a-kind effects, and spelling effects. (Oh, and some pretty sick effects if you want to do a lot of faros and end up with the deck in new order...which IS pretty fantastic to play with. And I suppose if you count "stay stack" effects as Mnemonica effects, the possibilities increase wildly...but...)

3. Having read through both "Bound to Please" and "Try The Impossible," I'm now moved to memorize Aronson because the TYPE of effects seems wider. Yeah, there are poker deals, spelling effects (urgh, I hate those -- I think they're the most thinly disguised mathematical effects in a magician's repertoire), and four-of-a-kind stuff. But Aronson seems to go beyond those genres as well, and into other areas. I see a wider range of TYPES of effects with the Aronson stack.

4. And maybe it's because Aronson is a fellow Jewish Chicagoan.

All in all, here I am having memorized TWO systems and I'm STILL going through the same indecision you are. So I sympathize.

--Josh

I've learnt the Tamariz Stack when I bought Mnemonica and regarding S Aronson advices o his website, he recommends to learn any stack. Anyway the best tricks are stack independent. The proble is not to know which stack to learn, it's to learn it !

Josho, thanks for the taking the time to write such a lengthy, cogent reply. I had your previous thread in mind when I created this thread. I agree with most of your comments, even though I've only browsed _Mnemonica_. I hate, hate, hate most spelling tricks. I prefer the way the Aronson stack looks, although I doubt any spectator can look at either and discover anything.

Although I cannot faro on command (no where near performance ready), I am attracted to the idea of returning a seemingly randomized deck to new order. It's the kind of incentive I need to practice.

I also realize the frustration of the other two posters, and agree with their comments. Yes, just pick one! Yes, the best tricks (as far as I know) are stack independent. This is the paradox of choice. If there was only one prominent stack out, I would just memorize it and be done. But there are at least TWO, which mucks things up.

No, Cain, seriously, no joke. Pick one now. You said it yourself--analysis paralysis. Flip a coin now--heads: Aronson; tails: Mnemonica. You won't regret it, I promise you.

All the best,
Jack

Jack,

I took your advice and immediately flipped a quarter. After it fell I realized it was only fair to do 2/3. However, I didn't the outcome I wanted until best 3 out of five.

Cain,

Which outcome was that? (I'm guessing Mnemonica...)

--Josh

Actually, it was Aronson. See, I'm really fickle. I'm assembling the deck now, numbering the cards, etc.

That was my next guess!

I promise I didn't use any magic to influence the coin toss.

Simon

Hi there! I am brand new here, and have not yet read through everything, but I just wanted to say:

1. I love Simon Aronson's books (I have them all), and particularly his memorized deck effects, from the easy ones like "Invisible Deck" to the number crunching ones like "Twice as Hard".

2. I learned the Joyal stack ("The six-hour memorized deck" - Martin Joyal) in '97 when the book came out. It took me one day to learn it, and a week to perfect it. I have to believe it is the easiest stack to learn, because of some simple numerical features, yet it looks totally random (and includes 4 pairs).

3. My favorite effect (many people have offered me >$100 in vain to learn the secret) is Barrie Richardson's "Any card at any number" (from "Theater of the Mind"). This effect was pointed out to me in a personal email by Martin Joyal.

4. I am very impressed with the extensive memorized deck works of Aronson, Tamariz, and Close.

Rod.

Yeah, but you magicians are such LIARS!

Simon, it's wonderful to see you here. Fantastic job on those DVDs, by the way...I've been watching them and it's a pleasure to see you perform and to finally put a face to all the books.

I'd be interested in knowing if you've had any thoughts about your stack being more or less appropriate for certain uses than the Mnemonica stack.

--Josh