Harry...Glen had a BIG knife! I remember (I was watching from the wings,and was able to see his method--but, I've long since forgotten the details.) It was not the HarrisON knife, which was a small pocket knife. Glen, as you've noted really "sold" the routne.

I agree with you, and others above, the blade is the 'important' thing that the audience must see, and then the presentation!

An argument against technology
oR Why I won’t be buying a gimmick for Knife through Coat

I recently decided AGAINST buying a Knife through Coat gimmick after watching the videos and deciding they all look AMAZING. I was especially excited about the ones that allow you to show the blade in the front/handle in the back without any cover. Just awesome.
But something didn’t feel right. Then I remembered a review of a cruise ship Illusion show from the internet. I’m paraphrasing but it read something like,

“ We were both very excited for the magic show but within a couple of minutes we realized that with each routine, the box or piece of apparatus rolled onstage was specifically designed to create the illusion being described for example being cut in half, floating, disappearing, etc. We were very disappointed.”
I remember laughing out loud. What had this couple expected to see? But looking at the thinking about the knife demos I was considering buying I realized I was falling into the same trap.
The audience knows I am not planning on ACTUALLY sticking a knife through the back of the volunteer’s jacket, that would just be vandalism. So right away they are looking for how you are going to cleverly create that illusion. With most of the slight of hand solutions, the strongest moment is the visual illusion of the flat paper pressed against the jacket cloth. The ease with which you handle the paper and the flatness of it against the fabric send the messages “nothing here”. The surprise of the blade, appearing suddenly perpendicular to the paper while simultaneously ripping the paper creates the illusion of penetration.
Now if you are using a gimmicked knife, the next step is to display the knife, front and back, hanging off the coat. But we the audience KNOW you haven’t done that, so when you show it to us (whether or not we can figure out how it works ) we leap to the conclusion “ That is one SPECIAL KNIFE!”.
Once you’ve shown them the front and back, all emphasis goes to watching the knife with the hopes of seeing or deriving logically how it works. There are only a couple of answers.
The beauty of the sleight of hand version is it defies the audience’s basic expectation that if the magician tries to move something as big as a knife from one place to another, “We will see it.” Once it appears in the hole in the paper, the magician is truly in the advantageous position of having very NOTHING to hide. This allows all the performer’s focus to be solely on selling the effect and milking the response.
My plan is to conclude the effect by giving the knife away to the volunteer, further proving my point that it’s no more then it seems to be.
I would love to hear other people’s thoughts.

Suspectacts, all you have done in your explanation is say what one or maybe a few might think, and of course that is what magic "entertainment" is all about. If there are audience members that focus on the "trick" or "working", that is part of the performance of magic, now isn't it. Wither it is "puzzle" a "mystery" or they really think you are Merlin and can perform "miracles", that is everything a modern magician is suppose to do.

How many times have you had a person come up to you after a show and ask, "how was that that trick done?" So what, he was entertained in the way he likes to be entertained.

Magic is all about the possibility of something being damaged, vanished, made to appear, or whatever. If you go on your reasoning, why show any magic at all, they just think it is a gimmicked coat, but is it really. That is the "hook"!

I have seen some of the big Knives and they look like they would damage the coat, thus I never purchased one for that reason, if they made it a little better and smoothed parts that come in contact with the coat, then I would have purchased one.

Why not just do the none gimmicked version several hundred performances and see for yourself. Then if you want to upgrade, that is your choice. The late great Bob Read published his version with an ordinary knife found at restaurants and pubs. Yes, a borrowed knife. His routine is hilarious, entertaining, and takes 5 minutes of laughs to the conclusion.

I guess you have to make up your mind why you want to be a magician, do you want to "entertain" as your main reason, or do you want people to think you are a "real" miracle maker, and just do tricks, like when you started out in magic. Remember the ball and vase, and when you found out the secret, you were disappointed. Were you entertained, no, were you excited, no. Did you ever show the trick more then one time to anyone ever again, no.

And if you are trying to fool the lady that thinks every prop is only made to present one miracle. They why not show her a trick that does not use a prop. Or use a prop, that has no purpose for the trick. Like the Color Changing silk. In Tarbell it shows it being used with a card with a hole in the center, I believe. Pull the silk through the card and hand the card to the lady. With skill, learning and research, you can even hand the scarf to the lady. There are many skill magic tricks that fool everyone.

Education and enlightenment can enhance your magic in many ways that you never thought of. Trouble is no one thinks it is a viable solution, thus do not use them. Those that do become seemingly real magician in the audiences eyes. You have to find what works for you, and no one can hand that to you or tell you, as you will post another question like the above one.

It all depends if you are willing to put the work in, and find your own answers. Remember, it is not the prop, but the person using the prop that makes the magic. Never blame the prop for you own failure, unless the prop actually broke of course.

Hi Peter,

Here are my thoughts.

I think your decision to go with a non gimmicked knife for the knife though coat is a good one (I happen to think it’s the strongest and most versatile methodology) but I don’t think the analysis you’ve applied to come to the decision not to use a gimmicked knife is particularly sound.

I understand how your magicians eyes lapped up the visual on those video clips of the knife sticking half way through the coat and how you then realised that you were actually marvelling that the gimmick allowed for this visual to happen rather than marvelling at what this was adding to the effect of the knife genuinely going through the coat. This is a failing of the presentation of the effect and handling of the gimmick not a failing of the gimmick itself. Those performers who display the knife by holding the jacket out like a cape and showing both sides are guilty of showing off what the gimmick can do, rather than applying the gimmick in a way to make the effect as strong as possible.

My first thought when I saw such videos was, “If this was actually happening the knife wouldn’t be sticking through at 90 degrees to the jacket… it would be falling out onto the floor due to the weight of the handle. So the very aspect that the performer wants to show off (because he can) actually undermines the genuineness, truth and strength of the illusion. Spectators don’t make such in depth analysis of what they see but when things aren’t as they should be it sets off alarm bells to let them know something isn’t right and that weakens the illusion. This is what happens with this use of this gimmick and it’s also no doubt what the reviewer of the illusion show experienced… they saw a series of boxes doing what they were designed to do rather than a performer creating a series of illusions. The props aren’t the act the performer is. This is true for the knife used for a knife through coat as much as it is for a sawing in half.

Even the most seasoned of pros, such as Peter, can find themselves falling victim to the seemingly irresistible Siren like pull of showing off what a prop can do regardless whether or not it's the best thing for the routine. Peter says, “… using a gimmicked knife, the next step is to display the knife, front and back, hanging off the coat.” My response to that is, "No it’s not!"

That's only the next step if you want to both weaken the illusion and make people think you’re using a weird knife. The prop certainly allows for this ‘display’ but it’s not compulsory and is (in my opinion) ill advised.

However the mechanics that allow for this misconceived handling are not without merit and you can get the same enhanced visual without the losing the theatrical reality of the situation.

For example; the performer could comment that the handle won’t go through the slit that the blade has made... and while still holding onto the handle, show it on the other side of the jacket…. then maybe the blade could be taken hold of and the performer could ‘try and pull the handle through the slit’ by pulling on the blade. At this point the performer can let go of the handle to hold the coat as they pull on the blade with the other hand… the handle will appear to be stuck unable to go through the ’slit’ the knife has made. This uses the mechanics of the knife to create a highly realistic illusion of a knife half way through the coat without a gravity defying, ‘look what my trick knife can do’ display and this more subtle application of the unique abilities of this kind of gimmick maintains and indeed strengthens the illusion.

However using a non gimmicked knife method has its own advantages (some of which Peter mentioned) and for me these advantages outweigh those brought to the effect by the various sorts of gimmicked knives that are available.

And just in case you (Peter) haven’t thought of it as an avenue to explore…. another solution is to use a non gimmicked knife but have an additional one to flash after the ‘move’ but before the penetration. Whether the additional work this requires (which isn’t huge) warrants the subtle benefits it’s use brings to the illusion is of course a matter of opinion.

Totally agree, Sealegs, I did not want to tip all that valuable prop information.

Great discussion started Peter. Sealegs speaks to the handling mistakes that most performers make using the gimmick version that allows for the handle to be suspended (but shouldn't be suspended.

There are at least two versions that have blades that apparently penetrate the coat, allow for the handle to be shown (but has to be held in place) and the knife to be handed out or better yet stuck in a piece of board showing the knife as real. Basically you are manipulating a blade with a folding knife.

I like Dick Barry''s gimmick but follow Sealegs handling ideas. However my preference is to use the old U.F. Grant methodology using real working pocket knives. David Powell's is a stage size version of the Grant methodology using large throwing knives. In both the knife can be handed out at the end of the routine. I wouldn't as it slows down the act. Sticking it into a board on the table is proof enough. I've used both for decades.

I use Joe Mogar's knives for the Grant version and have some very nice throwing knives for the Powell version so I don't give the knife out. However I know you can get a nice looking sets of throwing knives pretty inexpensively so for a high paying gig I think that giving it away would be cool. Liability aside I think I'd make a disclaimer before letting the spectator leave with a sharp knife. Still it is an idea that has merit.

It is really horses for courses, gimmick or non-gimmick. Either can be routined well to get the desired reaction. Even with a gimmicked knife the routine is not self-working.

Thanks for the summary Harry. The routine certainly can get spectators visual attention.
I have worked several versions but realize it just does not fit my personality, though I love to see it performed well.

Ha! Ha! A pocket knife does not a man's personality.

What - you don't like to whittle your time away?

Does anyone know if the Caveney method as included in his new Magnum Opus, is principally the same as the Bob Read method?
Thanks for the input in advance!

I seen Mike Caveney do his Scissors Through Coat at Abbott's years ago. It was not Bob Read Method. It was more like the UGM Letter Opener/Knife Through Coat, only using a large pair of Scissors.

http://www.stevensmagic.com/shop/miracle-knife-ugm/

Here is the Looking Sharp that I own it can be seen in the top section of the photo below.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa120......51cf.jpg

I will say that the knife is well made. The one I have is I think the older model came from Mak I think or it was one of the items owned by Harold Puff. I also recall that it is on my excess collection list which means it's something I do not use or not in my main collection of magic artifacts.

Thanks for the input!

Looking Sharp is the one I seen in the local magic shop. There were deep scratches on the hilt and burn welding marks. This concerned me that those scratches would catch people's jackets and pull threads from the coats. That is why I never bought it. It would have been better if the hilt was polished smooth and/or chromed to provide a smooth surface the jacket is against.

JNeal pm me

I have the Dick Barry SUPER KNIFE-THROUGH-COAT for sale, very good condition, PM me

Nice to see you have one of the newest mechanical versions on the market. It does take some ability on the part of the performer to learn to handle the oddities of this version. I don't have it, but I see some handling situations that don't make sense. Does Dick Barry cover the handling in detail?

It is one of the best, none ditch, Knife Thru Coat props since the Knife Thru Coat was created. Funny no one has ever thought of this method before.

milesart, have you performed the Dick Barry version, what is your experience with it? Why are you trying to sell it? Are you aware we have a topic for selling used props, it is called "Let's Make A Deal". Alas, stand-up magic is just not of interest to many today. Does Dick Barry, offer a close-up handling?