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thepspdope Regular user With Roughly About 173 Posts |
Aargh - sorry about the multiple posts (hit 'quote' instead of 'edit')
I forgot about getting the 10 cards in order after the Poker Deal. I suggest you just do it openly, and appear to be looking at the cards for particular ones, but then just place them on top of the deck and immediately spread through the deck face up to find the 4 cards to use in the effect.
- just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you!
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Dennis Loomis 1943 - 2013 2113 Posts |
To thepspdope,
Yup, I like your ideas. I would modify the procedure like this: After the ten card poker deal, do what you suggest to get two more cards to the back ("top") of the deck and table cards 49-52. I would suggest that for cards 49-52 you not jog them upwards and remove them as a block. They will end up on the table in the wrong order. Instead, table the 6D, then the QC, then the 2C, and finally the 9D. Say: "I'll show you a trick with just 4 cards... wait it will be cleaner with these." You then spread to the AH as you suggest, table it, cut the deck there and replace the last 4 cards onto the QS. You then search for and table the other 3 Aces and proceed with Twisting the Aces or The Last Trick of Jacob Daly. (Or anything else you know with the four aces.) Next, I suggest we perform a 4 Ace Assembly. If we pick the right 4 Ace assembly routine, where 12 indifferent cards are used, we can pick the 12 appropriate cards in the Aronson Stack. (5H, 2D, KD, 7D, 8C, 3S, 7S, 5S, QD, 8S, 3D, and 7H. At the end, we place cards 23-25 onto the face up AH and put them onto the now face down talon which is Aronson Stack 26-52. This gives us a face down talon of cards 22-52. Next, we put cards 19-21 on top of the face up AD and place these four cards onto the Talon which now comprises Aronson Stack 18-52. At this point we have 8 cards remaining on the table from the 4 Ace Assembly. (AS, AC and stack numbers 12-17.) We put cards 12-17 on top of the talon in proper order and it now has cards 12-51 in Aronson Stack order. Next, we turn over the unused pile of cards, find the 10S, place it onto the AC of Clubs and put it on the talon, making that 10-52. We now place the 3H, 6C, and 8D onto the face up AS and put those cards onto the talon making it 6-52. Finally we have just 5 cards on the table to quickly rearrange and add to the talon, and the stack is complete. To recap the sequence: We will open a brand new deck, eliminate the Jokers and Advertising cards, and remove ten cards to Perform a 10 Card Poker Deal routine. (In the process, we stacked another ten cards in Aronson Stack Order.) Next, we will remove the 4 Aces (after a false start of removing two red cards and 2 black cards, and changing our mind to use the 4 Aces. We then perform Twisting the Aces or The Last Trick of Jacob Daley. Next we remove 12 more cards and perform a 4 Ace Assembly routine. In picking up the cards after this, we continue our set up and finally we end up with a complete Aronson Stack. I’m not completely happy with the last five cards, but we are getting close to a functional solution, assuming you have the time to do this much card magic. Dennis Loomis P.S. Depending on which 4 Ace Assembly we choose, it may be possible to backtrack so that the proper cards can be selected as the "indifferent" cards and brought out in order so that at the end of the effect, the 12 indifferent cards in are proper order. This would make picking them up in order less suspicious
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com |
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thepspdope Regular user With Roughly About 173 Posts |
Very nice. I'm thinking about how to alleviate the arranging at the end of the assembly.
When spreading through to find the 4 Aces, we have the opportunity to cull some cards so maybe that's the time to set the cards remaining from the Assembly. When removing the Aces and/or when 'choosing' the 'indifferent' cards for the assembly, we cull the 3H, 9S, 2H, 5C, KC, JS (Stack 1-5 & 7) to the back, and it means less fiddling about at the end. Also at this stage since there are less cards, it's probably more a case of arranging as opposed to culling. Apparently arranging the cards for the assembly, but actually using this as cover to arrange the non-assembly cards. While looking for the cards to use in the assembly, we can also take the 4 cards that are 23-26 and table them (as if we are going to use them in the assembly) and then change our mind and dump them face down onto the stack-pile and continue until we have our assembly cards tabled. Situation check... Stack-Pile of 30 cards tabled face down. (# 23-52) Mini-Stack of 6 cards (# 1-5, 7) left to the side. 4 Aces and 12 Indifferent Cards for the Assembly. (Stack #'s 6-22 minus 3H). Now the if the assembly can order the cards, the last part is just to put the AS before the 3H in the mini-stack and we would have a complete AS. Best of luck with it, I gotta run ps - LOL, sorry in advance, I know these posts read like some secret code or something, but it makes sense when I say it in my head
- just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you!
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Cohiba Special user Michigan 749 Posts |
Guys -
I like what you're doing, and I enjoy working through puzzles to sort through this sort of thing - but it is getting to be a lot of work. The problem I see is that we're going to spend a half hour worth of performing to get to a half stack, and that's starting from NDO. Consider the trick where you call the cards, stacking as you go (sorry, name eludes me right now), and you can set the entire stack (or half stack, for that matter) in one trick, from a mixed up deck that the spectator shuffled. It seems to me like a waste of effort to go the route we're going. I like the premise, but when it's all said and done, I think we're better off with the previously mentioned effect, or a deck switch. (As you know, there are quite a few strong tricks that accomplish a switch, as well.) Again, I applaud the effort being put forth. I'm just starting to question whether anyone would ever have the opportunity or desire to do this in real life. |
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thepspdope Regular user With Roughly About 173 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-10-01 22:35, Cohiba wrote: Yeah I know what you mean. I have not used the stack in a while, but I too enjoy the puzzle aspect. But already we are at a half stack after just the poker deal, so that's a lot less than 30 mins and you are using a nice effect to boot. After the poker deal we have 20 cards, you cull 2 cards to the top, table 4 cards as if to start an effect, and then as you spread to the AH you change your mind, replace the 4 stack cards, square the deck, and there you have it. A complete half stack ready to go. Spectators point of view...NDO, a poker effect, magician about to start another effect and changes mind...the next effect is amazing! (I should hope so...you have a half stack to play with! ) ps - if your poker demo takes 30 mins then please ignore all of the above
- just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you!
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Dennis Loomis 1943 - 2013 2113 Posts |
The 10 card poker routine can be as many or as few phases as you like. Only one, if you wish. The Last Trick of Jacob Daly takes less than a minute. The 4 Ace Assembly can probably be done in 3 minutes.
But still, I get the point. You're locked into a sequence of effects which, while good classic magic, may not be what you want to open your set with. However, a puzzle was posed, and at least one solution has been suggested. The effect which can be done, to set the stack is called "A Subtle Game." It's the last item in the Hugard Encyclopedia of Card Tricks. You can find some more suggestions of mine about using it on my web site. ( http://www.loomismagic.com ) Just go to the mem deck area and click on article 8. Cohiba, in case you didn't read carefully, the solution proposed does get to a FULL Aronson Stack, not a half stack. While the description above is lengthy, it really isn't. But, it's up to each performer to choose his material. If this is not your cup of tea, no problem. Don't use it. The virtue of this might be where you have been hired to perform card magic for a big party. Those that are interested can come into the "magic room" to watch about 45 minutes worth of magic. The host is asked to buy and bring two or three sealed decks of cards. You open one deck, go to work performing almost immediately, and after ten minutes you have this borrowed deck in Aronson Stack order for whatever killer effects you wish to do. Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com |
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Cohiba Special user Michigan 749 Posts |
Don't get me wrong guys - I like the idea. It seemed like it was getting a little more involved than what your last two posts explained. Since I no longer use the AS, I started to gloss over some of the details, and it seemed more involved than I would want to go.
If you can get there with only a few effects, and it doesn't appear like you're fishing between the effects, then I think it's a very powerful tool. Like we stated at the beginning, you need to start somewhere. |
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todsky Inner circle www.magicstore.ca 2354 Posts |
Great thinking on this thread!
My interest is more about going from a random deck into Aronson order, but this solution could also apply to getting there from NDO. It's an idea someone else mentioned on another thread, although it might sound a bit simple and long-winded for some tastes: A card is forced on spec, shuffled in, and then you proceed to eliminate all cards that are not the chosen card until the only remaining card is spec's card. The cards are eliminated one by one in stack order. This could be done in a fast/kamikaze/humorous style, so it becomes a quirky and light magic piece between the heavy-hitting stuff. I also know of a great way to go from Aronson stack to random order, if anyone's interested.
Todsky's Magic Shop: over 15,000 tricks, books, DVD s and Card decks. www.magicstore.ca
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Dennis Loomis 1943 - 2013 2113 Posts |
To todsky,
What you have proposed is exactly what the effect: A Subtle Game does. Except that you force 4 cards. Each one of 4 spectators gets about a quarter of the deck. That way, when you call a card, 4 spectators are searching their packet and the card is located and eliminated quickly. At the end, each spectator holds a card and they turn out to be the four selected cards. I agree this is a great way to set up the Aronson Stack in front of an audience. I suggest that the four force cards (Stack numbers 49-52) be found during a previous trick, not just before you start The Subtle Game. I find that one simple way to do this is to force just one of them. Have the deck shuffled, take it back, and look through it and table the 4 you need. They are face down. You now use Equivoque to allow the spectator to find his own card. As the others are eliminated, you keep them in order. Then, you return his selection to the right spot and proceed to force all 4 cards. An easy way to do this is with the Cross Cut Force. Just be sure when you hand out the cards to 4 spectators that the spectator that picked one card before does not get it again. With enough spectators you just don't use that same spectator again. Going from random order to Aronson Stack is certainly a bigger challenge than going from New Deck Order. You could use the procedure we worked out above, but the search for each and every card will take much longer because the deck is not in an organized state. I think that Harry Lorayne is the absolute master of setting up stacks right in front of an audience while talking all the time. But he does not usually attempt a complete full deck stack. Most of his effects which require a set up only need a few cards in specific location. (Often, the 4 Aces, mixed with some random cards on or near the top and bottom of the deck.) As I continue to work with it, I am getting more and more enamored of the procedure we worked out above. It will require some additional memory work, because you need to know what cards you are looking for at all times. But the strategy of searching for some specific cards while in fact locating both them and others is a time honored one in magic. Here, we've expanded it to ultimately set up all 52 cards. And, don't forget, the effects mentioned are good strong card magic. I would not be afraid to start a set with these three items and then go on to KILL with some powerful mem-deck magic. The complete 3 phase Aronson Poker Deal Routine seems to me to be the best Grand Finale for all of this. When you deal the final Draw Poker hand, and sight unseen call the strong hands of your opponents, and then produce a Royal Flush for yourself, the audience is going to remember that at the start you opened a brand new deck. Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com |
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todsky Inner circle www.magicstore.ca 2354 Posts |
Ah, I didn't realize that's what the Subtle Game is! Thank you, Dennis, so much food for thought here!
Todsky's Magic Shop: over 15,000 tricks, books, DVD s and Card decks. www.magicstore.ca
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
When I was in my early teens I knew of only one full-deck setup - the Si Stebbins. Then I got Greater Magic, and learned a gambling set up. It was Bill McCaffrey's Unique Bridge & Poker Deal. I used to KILL with it - presented first as a memory feat (since I was interested in memory work before I saw this). Anyway, I don't know A Subtle Game, but it seems as if you're talking about the same thing - for years I'd stack a deck this way - forcing four cards, calling cards haphazardly, and so forth. Is that what you mean? HL
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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Dennis Loomis 1943 - 2013 2113 Posts |
Harry,
A Subtle Game is explained in the section of Hugard's Encyclopedia of Card tricks in the section on the Nikola System. Actually, it's the last thing in the book. Yes, the gist of it is forcing the 4 last cards in a stack, and controlling them. Then you give out a quarter of the deck to each of 4 spectators, making sure that each one gets "their" card. You then call the cards in seemingly random order, but actually in stack order. With each card you call, the spectators look for it, and then one that finds it gives it to you. When you have called 48 cards, each spectator has only one card, and it's their selection. A pretty good feat. But in the process you have stacked the complete deck. I suppose you taught this to Nikola, Harry. -;) Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com |
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Dennis Loomis 1943 - 2013 2113 Posts |
Harry,
A Subtle Game is explained in the section of Hugard's Encyclopedia of Card tricks in the section on the Nikola System. Actually, it's the last thing in the book. Yes, the gist of it is forcing the 4 last cards in a stack, and controlling them. Then you give out a quarter of the deck to each of 4 spectators, making sure that each one gets "their" card. You then call the cards in seemingly random order, but actually in stack order. With each card you call, the spectators look for it, and then one that finds it gives it to you. When you have called 48 cards, each spectator has only one card, and it's their selection. A pretty good feat. But in the process you have stacked the complete deck. I suppose you taught this to Nikola, Harry. -;) Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com |
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Dennis Loomis 1943 - 2013 2113 Posts |
Sorry, I don't know how that last post got in twice. And, it's too late to edit it out.
Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Don't know which came first, Dennis - A Suble Game, or Bill McCaffrey's (that's who I taught it to - McCaffrey!!!) HL
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
...because what you describe is EXACTLY out of Greater Magic. HL
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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Dennis Loomis 1943 - 2013 2113 Posts |
Hi Harry,
Thanks for the reference. I'll take a look at Greater Magic. It's likely that this was independent discovery, of course. And I certainly believe that you figured it out... given how creative and familiar with card magic you are. Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com |
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plungerman Loyal user 287 Posts |
Good job everyone!
Todsky, I think you really hit on it just right. Who was to know this was already out there. (O.K.,Dennis and Harry but c'mon) I've been VERY impressend with Mr. Loomis' dogged methodology from beginning to end. But I also sympathise with those who see it as a really long way to get to the desired solution. Compare to the Si Stebbins stack arranged from NDO. It's an afternoon by comparison. But! I have a solution. In a lecture after all these tricks are done you can end by displaying the deck in ASO, just like you would finish a Darwin Ortiz effect showing four perfect bridge hands. A narrow audience but what a trick. The Subtle Game from a shuffled deck really sounds good. It might be best to get the forced cards to the bottom and deal them to each player as you deal out the deck. If they each cut a packet for themselves one might run out before another. Also I think it would be better if each spectator ended with someone elses card. That way the last card each displays would make a suprising ending for all. I'm still toying with the ASO from NDO and a process for getting there, just by way of a puzzle. I'll list a few tools I've been using shortly, all just for fun - and insomnia. For performance nothing will beat a deck switch. P |
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Dennis Loomis 1943 - 2013 2113 Posts |
To plungerman,
You're probably right as far as a deck switch is concerned. For me this was an interesting and challenging puzzle. The solution may be long, but as we demonstrated, there is a solution. If you work through it, it may not be as long as it reads, and it's a strong set of effects. I shall be interested in any new ideas you may have on the subject. The Subtle Game is a strong effect by itself, and the fact that it allows you to restore a shuffled deck to a particular stack is an added bonus. Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com |
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