John,

I fully respect your point of view.

Just one question - how much did they pay Harry (Mitch) Devano? Very little I would imagine - given that Mitch died in 1996 and their Rising Card item hit the Tenyo Catalogue in 2004!

The only thing I would say to that is at least Harry Devano recieved full credit for his wonderful invention on the Tenyo release, unlike the numerous other dealers and manufacters that have released this effect with no credit to Mitch. Are you suggesting that the Devano deck should no longer be made availabe now that he has passed?.... that would be a shame. Also are we sure that the Devano estate (if there is one) did not receive any renumeration?

Cheers,

John

Oh come on now John - simply because Tenyo credited Mitch's name with the trick makes them better than other 'rip off' dealers does it? I can't believe that you truly think that; taking into account your other (excellent) posts.

Should the Devano Rising Cards continue to be available? Yes - absolutely; as long as royalties have been paid to the originator or his estate. Should they be widely available via a company who's prime market is laymen? Well I would have hoped not but what's done is done.

As for the question of 'renumeration' let's see if anyone from Tenyo can come on here and enlighten us shall we before I make further comment?

Merc Man, you obviously do not care for Tenyo and that is fine. I have a different opinion of their business practises particuly in a market that is cut throat and generally holds no regard for creators. Neither one of us knows if any renumeration was paid for sure, and as I pointed out above is there an estate that can be dealt with on this? (you probally know better than me on this).

You keep indicating they are peddling to laymen. I assume you mean their sales outlets in Japan. In N.A. Tenyo products are only sold through magic shops and at fairly high prices (particularly the last few years) so I think very few layman here are buying the tricks. And if they are they obviously have an interest in learning magic.

Tenyo with their World's Greatest Magic line have profiled some of our greatest magic creators in a classy way and firmly established them as the rightful creators of their effects. In a way I think they are creating a bit of a "hall of fame" with this effort. I have not seen or read of any creator being upset by how they were treated by Tenyo. Now if you can provide evidence that Tenyo woefullly ripped off Devano's great effect and they disregarded dealing with his estate (if there is one) than shame on Tenyo. I just do not see a history of bad buisness practises from Tenyo, for that reason I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt unless there is evidence to suggest otherwise. You seem quick to render a quilty verdict without providing the evidence.

At the end of the day we are on the same page in terms of wanting to see inventors and dealers get a fair shake. I have invented and sold a few items over the years, my most successful was the "Acme Portable Hole" card trick (you can goggle it) If Tenyo approached me and wanted to market the effect I would be thrilled. There are three reasons why I think most of us invent tricks...

1) We love to do it and it is a creative outlet
2) Some finacial renumeration... for most tricks this is pretty minimal
3) Recognition for our creative efforts

For me #3 is the most rewarding and I think Tenyo delivers on that admirably. Your mileage may vary.

Cheers,

John

Merc Man-

I strongly disagree with your apparently quick rush to trash Tenyo, especially on this forum. Tenyo has (as others have said) earned a reputation for both innovation and resapect for the creators of their effects. End of story.

Further, if in fact Scotty was a gentleman and gave Ken the rights for free for his lifetime...which if true was a very magnanimous thing to do... Then by every right Scotty should also have every right to earn a few pennies on his creation now.

The re-release of this classic is also bring new life to a classic in magic, and potentially sparking the imaginations of a new generation. This may seem trite, but Tenyo. Executed this version beautifully at a reasonable price.

Personally I think you are (unfairly) making judgements without having all the facts at hand AND showing wonton disrespect to both the creator and to the memory of your friend Ken Brooke.

John - I had nothing but praise for Tenyo over many years. As I've already stated I cut my teeth on their products via Davenports and Alan Alan's - two credible bricks and mortar magic shops. Unfortunately, here in the UK, I've seen their wares for sale in joke shops.

SaySold1 re: 'Tenyo have executed this version beautifully at a reasonable price'

Clearly we have very different perspectives upon 'plastic light bulbs'! A light bulb made of anything other than GLASS surely isn't going to look anything other than fake; it's obvious that a prop is 'doing the work'. But there you go, great for the amateur but any professional serious about magic would never waste time with toys.

I will say no more other than please don't suggest I'm disrespecting my friend Ken Brooke - I really take that as an insult.

"But there you go, any professional serious about magic would never waste time with such toys."

Wow, and we are not supposed to take that as an insult? I have tried to debate you in a civilized manner but clearly that is one sided. You have attacked with no hard evidence and cannot support your claims other than with rumors. I have been involved with magic for 40 years at all levels, performing, inventing, writing. Please do not pretend to be superior because we appeciaate a company that actually produces some innovative ideas and credits inventors. If you are an example of Ken's "friends" perhaps I have misjudged him.

I'm done

Then the answer is surely let someone from Tenyo come on here and prove me wrong!

It really is as simple as that.

P.S. I have never worked with any professional magician, in over 32 years within the UK, that uses Tenyo effects in his commercial act. They are what they are - very good tricks for magic hobbyists.

P.P.S. You state that I have not treated you with respect. Have I not said in previous posts:

(i) That I respect your point of view?
(ii) Taking into account your other (excellent) posts?

We'll leave it there - I have nothing more to say other than I look forward to a response from Tenyo proving my statements incorrect - but I doubt that will ever happen if I'm honest!

I thought I was done...

Barry you have not substainated any of your claims that they need to address. I at least tried to find some recorded history on the Scotty York matter... where is your evidence for your claims?

I do not claim to use Tenyo in my commercial act either, however there are a few items I have used regularly over the years. I am now a Tenyo collector and enjoy them for what they are... clever examples of outside the box thinking.

On another forum this week award wining Doc Eason was looking for a replacement pen for Invisible Zone as he lost his performing at the Magic Castle last week. Perhaps us N.A. magicians are not as professional as you British ones.

And while you a slamming Tenyo selling to laymen... lest we forget that Ken Brooke sold magic on the streets at points in his life to make ends meet. I am not slamming Ken for that, but you could ease down your superiority tone a little and you would have more creditability.

Okay my points are:

i) I don't believe that they had any right to market the Scotty York Lamp Trick without the prior permission of Paul Stone
ii) I was advised by 2 prominent members (one since deceased) at The Magic Circle that neither Harry Devano (nor his estate) received payment for Tenyo producing the Devano Rising Cards

I can only state what I have read or been told - let Tenyo state otherwise.

As for American magicians not being as professional as British ones - clearly that isn't the case and that isn't what I said. Notwithstanding this, I don't know of many British laymen that would be fooled into believing that a bloody plastic light bulb is the real McCoy!

P.S. The magic that Ken sold on the streets was primarily the 3 card trick, the hindu papers and the flick book - items that were hardly 'exclusive material' and were already available within the public domain.

Now Lot of bulb (low energy) which are sell in shop are in plastic or are all white like tenyo props, it's finish the time with transparent filament glass bulb ... Wake up... They are even banned from sale in Europe now.

So you are basically stating Scotty York is a liar? And that his wriiten account in 1993 is not true. I am going to attempt to contact Scotty for his side.

So there is in fact a Devano estate that one can contact? I was told there is not. And clearly Harry did not receive payment as he had passed away which you already pointed out.

With regards to the items Ken sold it is easy to justify things. But honestedly I think the 3 card monte, coloring book and even the hindu papers (Canadian pro Bill Abbott uses this regularly) are in more perfroming acts than most Tenyo tricks.

Finally, have you actually held Tenyo's version of the bulb trick? Or are you basing that on rumor as well?

You need to get your facts right mate before commenting - the Ken Brooke version was NOT a transparent bulb.

Fact number 2 that you need to get right - in the UK (I know we are part of Europe as we fund most of it ) transparent bulbs are NOT banned from sale - our supermarkets have hundreds of them!

As for shops in the UK selling 'plastic' light bulbs - tell me where as its news to me!

Is it just me or are you starting to rant a bit now?

If you feel so exquisitely passionate about getting someone from Tenyo "on the record" perhaps this is NOT the best (nor most realistic) forum for such an exchange. Might I suggest Merc Man that you make an attempt to contact Tenyo yourself in a more suitable and professional manner. Since you seem to feel so passionately that someone has potentially been wronged, then as others have said here... go collect some facts.

I really appreciate the efforts of Mr. Talbott in collecting the history and background of the effect. I do not appreciate reading your long winded rants that to me thus far do not appear to be backed up. You keep saying that Tenyo need to respond - Well, no they really don't - especially here at the MC. Make some phone calls, read some books, do some Google searches, whatever. Other than that your comments thus far sound like rants, and it is a shame that this topic has become so heated as there really is no need.

You seem to be fairly well connected Merc Man - so go out and do a little digging and please stop throwing stones. Thank you.

Barry, by stating that you believe Tenyo needed Pauls's permission to market Scotty's trick you are essentially saying that his wriiten history is a lie. You keep saying Tenyo should come on to defend themselve, I would suggest Paul should come on to disprove Scotty's claim.

Bulbs of more then 100 Watt and every non-transparant bulb ARE banned since september first 2009 in the European Union, at least in Belgium, France, Holland, Germany, ... (it is forbidden for stores to buy them). I wouldn't be surprised however if the UK would have a sligtly different/adapted regulation

I really don't consider this a rant - I've simply stated my point of view.

I will contact Tenyo and see if they have the courtesy to respond - if so, I will post their comments.

Finally, if you think I'm ranting, you clearly never crossed swords with Ken Brooke when he was in full flow - my comments would be considered akin to Kissinger!

Barry the tiresome part of this is that it is a point of view that you have tried to present as facts without evidence. I'm sorry but stating I know two people that believe this is not proof. I am also curious why you feel you need comment from Tenyo. Surely it would be easier for Paul Stone to provide documentation that he received from Ken stating he was passing on the rights to the bulb trick. I am sure Tenyo negotiated in good faith with Scotty based on his wriiten history in 1993 and the fact he is the undisputed originator of the effect. Scotty has made clear his position, if there is a dispute then it is between Paul and Scotty.

As I stated earlier Scotty has sold the bulb off and on over the past 17 years, I have never heard there was a concern, but now there is? Is this your concern or Paul's?

On another note do you know who I may contact from the Devano estate? (I was told in the past that Harry had not passed on the rights to anyone) I have tinkered for awhile with an idea based on similar methodology but not a card trick. If I pursue marketing it I would like to do the right thing.

John