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zhuanan Veteran user 383 Posts |
Hi Doug:
I am currently learning the Cylinder and Coins Routine. Would appreciate your comments on the following: 1) As a beginning, would you recommend one to start off by learning Ramsay's routine, or Carney's streamlined cylinder and coins routine? 2) Do you have any preference on the use of silver dollar or half dollar? 3) I find it difficult to execute the pivot vanish using half dollar (for 2nd vanish), because the 2nd coin when pivot down would hit the head of the 1st and thus produce clicking sound. I have explored the idea of using silver dollar, however, due to the size of my palm, using silver dollar will increase the risk of flashing, as silver dollar is larger than half dollar. I am stucked. How should I proceed? 4) In your personal opinion, do you think it is better to produce the 4 coins one by one (as per Ramsay's routine) or produce all at once (as per Carney's version) 5) Do you feel that something may be amiss in the routine on the ending bit? Do you feel that there could be a "bigger finish" or another phase can be added to add "extra punch"? 6) Any other advice in learning and performing the Cylinder and Coins routine? Thank you! |
doug brewer V.I.P. 1142 Posts |
Hello zhuanan! Actually, you ask some excellent questions. I hope my coin expert friend Curtis Kam chimes in here too, because we have gone back and forth on this topic for a long time and have explored different ideas. I'll tell you what I think my "current" thinking on this is, and granted, it's an opinion and prone to change if someone makes a good argument because I'm not sure there's a perfect answer on all these.
1) I think Ramsay's original routine should be studied, and perhaps rehearsed, but I would not put the time in to learn it and perform it. Ramsay's audience was typically other magicians - he did perform for laypeople, but he put in a lot of feints and dodges specifically to fool magicians, which aren't really needed for lay audiences. Carney's routine is a good, solid handling, worthy of study and it uses the classic four coins, no gaffs (with the exception of the stack) method. I did it for awhile, but then moved on to a different method. I prefer the use of a shell to eliminate some of the hand-to-hand transfers necessary for 4 coin versions. 2) I use both half dollars and silver dollars. For table work or at the bar I'll use the half dollars. A little "bigger" setting and I'll use silver dollars. I've also gone back and forth on 3 coins and 4 coins. Curtis Kam, as well as my L.A. friend Jeffrey Cowan, a friend and student of Bob Kohler, greatly poo-poo's anything other than 4 coins, no gaffs. 3) I'm not a fan of the pivot vanish either. I've gotten around this by using a similar false take by the left hand, while under cover of the left fingers, the right thumb literally drags the coin at the fingertips over the existing coin in finger palm. The use of a shell also eliminates some of these types of vanishes. 4) I used to be okay with all at once and it can be quite effective, but I'm back to one at a time in a flurry, after watching Curtis do his (unpublished) version. 5) I've added an extra phase to the beginning, which I think makes the traditional routine a little more clear. In my opening routine, the coins are lined up in single file, vanish one at a time, and appear under the cylinder (no cork yet) - kind of in a translocation-y manner. This sets up the premise (coins vanish and appear in the cylinder). Next, the cork is introduced and placed under the cylinder as a "marker". The 4 coins now vanish one at a time at the fingertips. The cylinder is lifted and instead of being on top of the cork (which I have implied throughout the routine) they are impossibly under the cork. I then do the traditional transposition with the cork and coins to end. I came up with this opening routine because there is a bit of confusion on the entire premise (unless you present it as a historical piece, talking about Ramsay. I've seen this by some heavy-hitters and it plays nicely). Curtis and I also had some back and forth on whether to lift the cylinder after, say, two of the coins vanish, just to show the cork again. This seems to imply that the coins are not arriving after each vanish but are elsewhere. It also may give an out for people who think the effect is too perfect. I used to lift the cylinder - I don't anymore. 6) Practice some of the classics like Ramsay and Carney, just to see how they feel to you. If you gravitate toward no-gaffs I would look at Carney's routine. Also, Mike Gallo has a really nice version somewhere, either on NY coin seminar or one of his personal DVDs. It's very nice too. I don't think Curtis has released a version yet. Once you have at least a "method" down, just keep practicing it and perform it for fellow magicians to get some rehearsal and real-time experience. It's really a strong trick - really strong. Once you have it down, you'll use it forever. I hope this helps, but maybe we can get Curtis in here to comment too. Also, someone like Bob Kohler is un-godly good with his version. It would be awesome if one of these years he released his version to the masses. He's got some real work on it and has used it a lot longer than I have. |
korttihai_82 Inner circle Finland 1880 Posts |
Speaking of Kohler, I happened to find this few weeks back just by accident. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCH5DEXLOGY
I personally have always though that why bother with 4 coins, no gaff attitude when you could do absolutely killer versions by just gaffing it all up. Laymen don't care cos they don't know Your gonna need the props anyway, not like its impromptu routine. J-M |
doug brewer V.I.P. 1142 Posts |
That's a good find!
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
J-M, I usually ask the gaff question from the opposite direction--if, as you say, "laymen don't care coz they don't know" then why bother with gaffs? Aesthetic considerations aside, gaffs cost money, gaffs get lost (and can be harder to replace), gaffs require attention and organization. If the audience won't know the difference, why shackle yourself to a gaff?
In this case, however, one can successfully argue that cleanliness of the vanishes is important, and that cleanliness is the benefit conveyed by most gaffs. I know this, because Doug has argued that. And I pretty much agree. In my routine, the coins are ungaffed because the reproduction sequence involves dropping and pouring the coins from hand to hand. I'm too lazy to worry about managing the sound and possible damage issues to do the sequence with gaffed coins. Other guys have other reasons, all perfectly good, for using no, one, or more gaffs. I think one's choice on this is determined by how you answer the main question you should ask before you approach any effect--"what's this trick all about"? For instance, For me, the one thing that makes this trick unique is the fact that the coins appear under the cork. The big moment in the routine is when the stack of coins is revealed sitting under the marker. My routine is designed to make that moment as strong as possible. That's why my stack is six coins high, and the marker is a brass nut, rather than a slice of cork. All that's determined by the answer to the first question, so that's where I'd suggest that you start. Once you have the answer, you have your vision. Once your vision is clear, the rest of the choices are obvious. Oh--and Doug's right about working through the Carney routine, and the original, too, just so you understand the way this piece works. Keep in mind, though, other performers probably answered the central question differently from you. And at any rate, they probably are working from a different set of tools. You might also look at R. Paul Wilson's routine in 5x5 Scotland, and Jean Emmanuel Franzis's version on either his own videos, or the New York Coin Symp discs. They both have innovative solutions to the problem of getting the coins under the marker.
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
If you can see Dean Dill's new version (he's waiting for the leather dude to make the cylinders) he' come up with something really amazing.
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
Dean emailed me and I've been waiting for his clone phall.
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