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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
There are no "rules" in the "Art" of magic, only guidelines. I can think of routines and presentations where all these so-called rules can and have been violated. I've revealed secrets, Explained what I was going to do before I did it, Repeated a trick and failed to adequately practice a trick before presenting it before an audience. I've done all of that and more yet lived to tell the tale.
Granted you need to know how and when to break the rules for best advantage. But to needlessly constrict yourself by following arbitrary and unenforceable "rules" is to limit yourself artistically.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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RobFromNZ New user New Zealand 99 Posts |
I think most of the 'rules' really exist for one purpose: to protect the magic secret. Repeating a trick, performing an unrehearsed trick, announcing what is to come - these all increase the chance that the secret is discovered. However, it may be possible to repeat a trick, tell people what's coming, etc, WITHOUT revealing the secret. In which case...have you really broken the rules?
I guess magic is like many things: learn the rules, do the basics, then learn when/if to break the rules. |
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Magic Pierre Loyal user 212 Posts |
I think the rules exist to protect the Art, not just the Secret. If you reveal the Secret, of course the Art suffers, obviously. But, if you do a trick badly because you didn't practice it adequately, you have done bad magic, even if there was no danger of the Secret being revealed, and people seeing bad magic is what makes them want to not see magic at all, whether bad or good. In other words, bad magicians make all magicians and all magic look bad.
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RobFromNZ New user New Zealand 99 Posts |
Maybe...but if I go to an art gallery and see a crappy painting, I don't loose all respect for painters everywhere. Perhaps poor magicians really only make themselves look bad?
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David Fillary Special user 662 Posts |
But if you went to an art gallery and every painting was crappy, you probably would. Most people I have performed on have never seen a magician (although admittedly my usual audiences are under 21) except for a friend who did some terrible card magic. For some people, I can tell they accept my magic at first just to be polite and get it over with, and then grow to love it when they realise this isn't the same sort of puzzles their friends try to fool them with. Still, all of us at some point performed some bad magic and at least it can make us seem even more amazing when we are actually entertaining!
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JonBarr New user New Mexico 73 Posts |
I think it's interesting that whenever we start to learn something new and we are presented with 'the rules,' our first reaction is often, "Why are those the rules?" "What would happen if I break the rules?" etc.
Later, as we mature in our learning, we begin to appreciate the reasoning behind the rules. "Oh! 'Don't touch the stove, because if I touch the hot stove, I will get hurt." I believe that after that, some 'masters' reach a point where they can break the rules wisely, if they choose to. They figure out how to touch the hot stove without getting burned. Would Jackson Pollock succeeded at breaking the rules of painting if he hadn't mastered them first? Are copycat paint-drippers adding anything new to the art? As I recall, Penn and Teller got a lot of flack early on for breaking the rules. They weren't universally recognized as innovators of magic until later on. I think it's healthy to challenge conventional thinking and also wise to respect tradition, especially when starting out. Also, I hope everyone's joking about not practicing. :) Jon Barr |
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jcrabtree2007 Special user 627 Posts |
I don't know why a beginner would want to break the rules when the master (in this case, Mark Wilson) advises against it and even explains why its a bad idea. Sometimes the student thinks they know more than the teacher.
While there may be instances from time to time where one might bend the a rule to a certain extent, if you are new to magic, I would advise against it. And if you have to ask when that may be, then you probably shouldn't do it. |
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Magic Pierre Loyal user 212 Posts |
This quote is from an article on "The Art of Manliness" website, and I think it is apropos of the discussion:
"Through years of experience, the craftsman develops what Robert Greene calls a “masterly intuition.” He can sense problems and solutions by merely looking at an object or listening to it operate. I liken it to how a man will often know if there is something wrong with his car just by feeling the way it drives or hearing something subtle that wasn’t previously there. Crawford argues that the master craftsman’s ability to intuit and work by “hunches” allows him to “know what do when the rules run out or there are no rules in the first place.” It’s what allows a good auto mechanic to diagnose a transmission problem even when the computerized test equipment says the car’s transmission is a-okay or a carpenter to know what sort of joint would work best on a project. Aristotle called this kind of intuition phronesis, or practical wisdom. The ancient philosopher believed that the phronesis was a virtue that all men should develop, not just carpenters or masons. Practical wisdom is what allows us to make good judgments when we face decisions when there’s no clear right or wrong answer. It gives us the ability ”to do the right thing, at the right time, for the right reason.” Aristotle argued that practical wisdom for everyday life develops the same way craftsmen develop theirs — through experience and trial and error." |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-07-02 22:46, Payne wrote: With respect to your opinion, Payne, I am one of those oddballs who had an oddball mentor, and as such actually took something that was then called the "magician's oath". Unenforceable? No- not as long as I hold my word to be inviolable...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-07-09 08:23, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote: Having not had a mentor nor belonging to any societies I have never taken an oath or a pledge. So I am not constrained by such things. I believe that much can be learned from these so called oaths and pledges and that they are of value. But to be needlessly hobbled by their restraints or other practitioners interpretation of them is to needlessly limit ones approach to the practice of the craft. An artist knows when to adhere or break the so-called rules of convention.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Magic Pierre Loyal user 212 Posts |
[/quote]
Having not had a mentor nor belonging to any societies I have never taken an oath or a pledge. So I am not constrained by such things. I believe that much can be learned from these so called oaths and pledges and that they are of value. But to be needlessly hobbled by their restraints or other practitioners interpretation of them is to needlessly limit ones approach to the practice of the craft. An artist knows when to adhere or break the so-called rules of convention. [/quote] But how do you know you're an artist? Every dip-s**t 14 year old with an I-phone who posts some cruddy "here's how to do the Ambitious Card" video on You Tube doubtless considers himself an artist. |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-07-09 13:54, Magic Pierre wrote: One can label one's self an artist any time one wishes. But a true artist is only recognised as such by his or her peers. Thus one knows one is an artist when one is accepted by other artists in their field of study. Few 14 year olds posting exposure video's on YouTube have that level of recognition. Nor are they likely to achieve it.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Magic Pierre Loyal user 212 Posts |
OK, but, to the point, ANYONE can say "I'm an artist, so I can bend the rules, or break them, any time I want", even these 14 y.o. YouTube exposers. Who can really say about themselves or anyone else that they've reached a level of skill and "mastery" where they can decide to break the rules ad libitum without damaging the art?
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JonBarr New user New Mexico 73 Posts |
It seems to me that anyone CAN break the rules.
I agree that not everyone SHOULD. Only an individual can determine for him or herself whether or not they WILL. |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-07-09 15:55, Magic Pierre wrote: I doubt that the concept of art or artistic expression ever enters the mind of the 14 year old maker of YouTube exposure videos. Neither does "The Magician's Code" nor any other standard of rules and regulations the magic community might bandy about. As well as making their pathetic little videos they probably also download music and movies, a clearly illegal activity. So any protestations we might make as to their violating our long held tradition against exposing secrets will fall on deaf ears. But this isn't really what this discussion was about. The original question concerned rules and if they could be bent or broken. Clearly they can, and frequently are. Yet magic still not only survives, but thrives.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-07-09 12:02, Payne wrote: I can understand where "an artist knows when to adhere or break the so-called rules" but the OP was from someone with a low post count saying "I am sitting here, reading the introduction to "Mark Wilson's Complete Course in Magic" and I read the 4 rules to magic... " It is wise to tailor to the audience, no?
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Herr Brian Tabor Special user Oklahoma City 729 Posts |
The fourth rule, no. But the other three, of course there are exceptions.
1) Never reveal the secret. Silk to egg (ok just sort of, but any sucker trick can go here.) 2) Never explain what you are going to do ahead of time. This is usually in place because it can ruin the surprise of the trick. But there are some tricks that do this. Escapology, for example. Also, pretty much any effect where the premise is repeated, such as in card manipulation, while you're not saying directly that you're going to make more cards appear, after you do it the first time, they know you're going to do it again. 3 Fly, after the first coin you do it 2 more times...and so on. 3) Never repeat a trick for the same spectators. Again, any effect with a repeating principle, cups and balls (the ball vanishing is done repeatedly, I've seen many great routines of Torn and Restored rope, paper balls over the head...and so on. There are rules, yes, but they are generalizations, and there are exceptions to these rules. In CONTEXT to a particular routine that may call for this, that's a different story. However, No, you shouldn't just reveal how a trick works overall, and yes, you should ALWAYS practice a routine before you show people. |
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