Hi I'm getting back into card magic after many years. I recently watched Jason England's video on double lifts and am currently have trouble with the knock out double lift. It seems when I am using a more used deck I can't control just two cards to be pushed off, they tend to come in clumps. If I use a newer deck its easier but I feel I should be able to do this with any deck.

Any advice? Thanks!

I have found that some decks work much better than others - usually a new deck recently broken-in. This is is the deck that I use. If I'm using an older deck or someone's elses deck, I don't utilize the DL.

Jim

That's interesting. I am also just learning the double lift and found that using a somewhat older deck is easier for me, where the new deck is more difficult. I wonder if it's a matter of the method being used?

I have seen some methods that get and hold a break in the cards, then lift those (which is how I am doing it). If I use a newer deck, the cards tend to slide apart easier. I am sure I will over come this with practice, but for now I find this much easier with my broken in deck where the slight sticking of the cards works to my advantage.

I have also seen the push off method where they are pushed to the side and lifted from there, but have not personally tried it, so maybe it would work better with newer cards as you mentioned.

I suppose it would be a great idea to practice multiple methods and use whichever works best for the deck you are handed?

Usually when doing any card magic I prefer an older deck. Older decks are more worked in and I find it easier to use, but a dirty deck will clump and that would be an issue. So when you say used do you mean it's somewhat dirty? That could be the reason behind the clumping.

Also, here is a thread that you might find useful as it has some information pertaining to the Knock Out Double Lift.
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&start=0

-Ry

Here's an interesting discussion from a different forum about how to "break in" a fresh deck:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&forum=2

One piece of advice I've received is to practice with both old and new decks, so you develop skills that work with a wide range of conditions. But while I can see the wisdom of that, I think that sticking with a deck that works for you is the way to go when you're first learning a sleight. If a newer deck makes a knockout DL easier for you, you might want to work toward proficiency with a newer deck, and then you could move on to adapting those skills to work with an older deck.

As your name says try the double lift with a new deck of bicycle cards

What are you going to be performing with? Start with those

I am way to new to give advice, I can only note, everything I read/see says, practice with multiple decks in different conditions, new through old.
As a proof of this, I have 2 very short stories.
I was walking down the street one day, practicing my cardistry on a really broken, clumpy deck to practice cuts with. A man, saw me in the street, and he came up and thought it was cool I was playing with cards, he offered to show me a trick he was working on. He proceeded to do some amazing stuff with my borrowed, beaten, clumpy deck. I am sure his routine included several DL, as well as other sleights. He was this man: http://www.jackvelour.com/
Another person I happen to know, matt puglisi, who is an old member on these forums, was showing me his Multiple lift, and again, it matters not what the deck condition was, it was perfect in all cases.
So... Like most things people say in magic, I really believe it's just a matter or patience and practice. I will get back to you in 2 years when maybe I have a multiple lift worth showing

Excuse me if I sound rude towards any of the other comments, I don't mean to go against what others have said. I think many people here have made good points, but here's my opinion.

The type of deck you use should be irrelevant. I've done a perfect double lift using cards that were a cross between bridge and poker size in an outdoor central Asian bazaar out in the heat with crazy humidity. The deck was so worn as people were playing poker with them outside and I imagine it had been in use for quite some time. New cards, old cards, shouldn't matter. I think it helps to know maybe two different types of double lifts and that's it. I personally use slight variation of Dai Vernon's double lift, which is more of a book page turn over, and then I also use Ron Bauer's two card turn over technique which is an end for end turn over. I would more typically use Ron Bauer's with a worn deck and Dai Vernon's with one that's in good condition, however I can do both just fine with any deck. I personally don't care for push offs where you get your break as you're doing the lift as I find it unreliable depending on the condition of the deck. My personal favorite method is the pinky count which I believe is one of the most useful utilities in card magic, period.

All in all... Get a double lift that relies on pressure or a contact point from the deck, or part of your hand holding the deck to keep the cards from spreading.. When I teach people card magic, I practically brain wash them by telling them CONSTANTLY that they should have COMPLETE control over every card in the deck. A card should not move or fall out of alignment unless you let it do so. Of course if you're going for more of a Lennart Green style, then this may not apply to you. Be gentle, keep your slights and actions motivated at all times and be clear with every effect you present. As you practice more, handling the cards in such a strict manner starts to look more gentle and natural, ultimately putting you at a place to where every slight is second nature, you look relaxed, and you never have to worry about a card falling out of alignment or doing something that you don't want it to do.

That's just my thinking and the way I like to practice.

Good luck!

"...pinky count which I believe is one of the most useful utilities in card magic, period."

Don't mis-understand - I have nothing against the pinky count, and if it works for you, that's fine.

But - Period? That's it? THE most useful...etc. Interesting - been doing/writing about/teaching, etc., card magic for about EIGHT DECADES and never have used a pinky count. I never will - don't need it (aside from the fact that I can't do it!) Guess I've been doing something wrong for about eighty years!! Jeez. (I knew John Scarne, Dai Vernon, Bill Simon, Francis Carlyle, Ed Balducci, Jack Miller, Ken Krenzel, Derek Dingle, Tony Slydini, and on and on - and they never used pinky counts. Certainly not during our discussions about card magic, doing card stuff for each other, and etc.

I have been practicing magic for fifty years and I don't know that that I have ever done a perfect double lift or double turnover.

I agree with Harry Lorayne. In my fifty years of practice, I have nevr found a need for a pinky count.

It is one of the most over-hyped moves in card magic.

I like it, is it needed well clearly not, but it is useful.

I never said that you had to learn it either. I don't think every cardman must learn it... I'm just going off of the fact that since I've become proficient at it, I've used it in just about every routine I perform. Any time you have an option to hold a break, it's best to do so... If possible, you should avoid pinky counting as often as you can without adding extra moves to your performance. However, for any time that you forget to get your break, lose your break, or don't have an opportunity to retain one while closing a spread or anything of the sort, the pinky count comes in quite handy. It's nice having the confidence of a pinky count because regardless, I can always get a break under any small number of cards without having to add any extra moves in the laymen's eyes. It's invisible. I do my best to simplify my performances and adding extra moves takes away from the clarity of your effect.

So yeah, I don't think every person has to learn the pinky count.. I just know that since I've started using it, I've become quite the enthusiast of it. I don't know anyone who can do a good pinky count who will say that the move is useless. Everyone I've known to do it consistently uses it on a daily basis.

I used to do a strike double but after Aaron fisher and David Williamson both suggested getting a break first so I learned the pinky count. Dw uses it too

As I said - "Don't mis-understand - I have nothing against the pinky count, and if it works for you, that's fine."

My opinion is a very humble one as I am nought but a hobbyist. Nevertheless, my DL is taken straight from Harry Lorayne, as taught in the run up to "Lorayne's Ambitious Card Routine". It's in Close up Card Magic I believe but I got it from the revised version of CUCM in The Classic Collection Vol 1. It's easy to learn, easy to do, perfectly deceptive and I've never needed any other method, even with/especially with a beaten up deck. If anyone doubts this, just take a look at Pop Haydn (one of my all-time favourites) who uses the same DL (and sometimes TL) in most of his mainstream card routines where a DL is required. I've seen so much written about "turning the cards over as you would a single" and "how a layman would do it" etc but in the real world Harry's DLs just seem to fly by. As Harry often says/writes, "Just don't make a move out of it."

PS. As Zephury says, maybe you might want a back-up DL method for some occasions but I don't currently do any tricks that require one and I can't think of any of the top of my head. (Cue Zephury with a whole host of examples ;-) ). I do perform some routines where getting a break under the right card(s) happens as a matter of course, in which case I don't have to use anyone's DL technique.

PPS. If you can do a pinky count then good luck to you. I'm sure it could come in handy. But like Harry, I can't do it! (That puts me in very good company.)

I do a number of double lifts, but the one that I learned first, and use the most often, is the one Harry published in Close-Up Card Magic. I can do it without any get ready--which is one of the strong points for this move--for either a double or a triple. The other strong point is the solid registration, which is especially helpful when working in sunlight, or extremely close proximity to a sharp eyed spectator.

Larry Jennings used to criticize me for it, but Vernon thought it was fine and said it was very similar to one used by Nate Leipzig, but taken from the left side of the pack instead of the rear.

If you are doing a count, the side edge count (a sort of top buckle) from Expert Card Technique is much quicker, more surefire and more invisible than a pinkie count.

Sorry Pop. When I said, "...uses the same DL (and sometimes TL) in most of his mainstream card routines where a DL is required." I was clearly misrepresenting you and overstating the case. My sincere apologies.

May I ask, is the side-edge count in Expert Card Technique to which you refer the one described as "The Top Thumb Count" or am I looking in the wrong place?

It is the "Lift Get Ready" from the very beginning of the book.

Ah I see what you mean now Pop. Thanks you very much. Who was it who said, if you want to keep something secret in magic, put it in a book? ;-) Having never been able to get close to a reliable pinkie count I shall have to see if this works better for me.