Hi all

I'm a relative newcomer to fast and loose (weeks not years)

I'm trying to learn a simple routine starting from a UK book by Paul Zenon. It looks a lot like the SFS pattern.

I can do a win:lose and lose:lose

Does anyone know if theres a way to throw a win:win pattern?

Thanks for any advice

Rick

A Win:Win is explained in Expert Gambling Tricks by Nick Trost and also in The School for Scoundrels Notes on Fast and Loose by Whit Pop Haydn & Chef Anton. I recommend the School for Scoundrels and get their pdf.

Thanks Steadyhands
I've been looking at the SFS PDF
(Completely recommend their shell game intro too)
I think to present it as a magic trick rather than as a demo of a con it would be good if some players always win and some always lose
Thanks again
Rick

I can't remember if Marc DeSouza's video had a win/win throw.

The Whit Hayden win-win is also a lose-lose, depending on how you pull the chain, so it really offers maximum flexibility and you can have the spec choose the side, and also choose fast or loose after the chain is laid.

People are very keen. if you pull on different sides they notice that. this can be a come on or hook.

i do the jules linier routine (sfs) all I need is loose win and loose loose.

Jule's routine is great as an exhibition. I would not try those throws in a real betting situation. People will quickly see through them.

I'm feeling a bit star struck!
Pop Haydn has replied to my thread!

If you are looking for an extra, I posted this elsewhere last month when the sale started. I grabbed one up - no brainer and worth it not only for the dvd explanations but where else can you get the specially resourced chain at this price. Grab em before they are gone
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/......ang-kit/

$10 for the Marc DeSouza dvd and the chain.

Thank you, Sir

I'll take a look

Rick

This video by School for Scoundrels includes the pdf of our book as well as our video on Fast and Loose:

Http://www.popsmagic.com/store/p59/Fast_......PDF.html

Dear all
Thanks for your advice and expertise
I've got the school for scoundrels pack and looks like there's a simpler version on Pop's film (t*ing the k***) and a more complex extra loop version in the Chef Anton section
Plenty to be going on with for a good while and that's before even thinking about the performance
Thank you again
Rick

Pop's Package deals are an AWESOME value. I wish I was starting from scratch because I would totally jump on them. Unfortunately, I bought most of the items offered one at a time over the years and do not need a whole package. I am considering the "Shell Game Accessory Bundle". I am currently looking for the "magnetic street shells" I have the regular ones.

Fast and loose was actually the most popular of the "big three" cons that I performed during my Table hopping /bar tending years in magic. People seem to have seen, heard about or both when it came to 3 card monte and the 3 shell game but as soon as I brought out that "Mr T starter kit" (as I called it) the audience was fascinated. Don't get me wrong, I love the other two swindles but I always found my Specs to prefer the Fast and Loose.

Thanks poof-Daddy

Bit of a change of topic but what are your thoughts on presenting F&L as a magic trick not a con.

I Find it gets very slow explaining the principle of the two loops to "sell the lie" and the only "big finiish" - basically I know if youre going to win or loose - can be put down to a 50:50 chance

I love the simplicity and elegance but if it's not a cheat then there should be no surprise if you win or loose. At least with shell game or three card monte spectators can see where they expect the pea/queen to be and you can build increasingly improbable phases.

With F&L it just seems either it's a cheat with the throw or a 50:50 chance, win or loose?

What do you (or any other players) do to add to the show?

Rick

We stress at School for Scoundrels that there must always be a reason why the operator always wins.

You don't want them to think the game is crooked, so you have to give an "honest" explanation for why the operator always wins: he looks for "tells" in the victim as he makes a choice; He uses ESP to predict where the spectator will pick; He uses NLP to influence the spectator's choices; etc., etc.