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seraph127 Special user 587 Posts |
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On May 31, 2017, Ado wrote: I just can't see how that's practical advice. The pass is an ancient move, and the advice I've given is the wisdom of far better men than me. I can't figure out how it makes sense to ignore accumulated centuries of collective knowledge on this difficult sleight. In the course of following good advice, it certainly makes sense to add to it whatever one learns in the course of one's own experimentation and execution - so long as such discoveries actually advance one toward the goal. Anent practice: practice does not make perfect. Practice merely makes permanent. PERFECT practice makes perfect. (That's Vince Lombardi, btw). Hugard and Braue, in Expert Card Technique, point out that many magicians struggle to master sleights and don't really manage to do so because they never learned a correct method. I can transpose two halves of the deck by simply cutting the deck in the hands, but that's not really what we're after here. Why reinvent the wheel, as it were, when smart people have already spent the time and effort in working out good methods? I certainly wouldn't tell anyone "Don't worry about the specifics of driving a car - just think about what you want to achieve, getting from here to there." I've met too many drivers who seem to have "learned" to drive by just such a trial and error process.
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
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Ado Inner circle New York City 1033 Posts |
Seraph: my point is that too many, waaaay too many people learn the pass to fit the description of the text rather than think about the intention of the move (a swift packet switch). This means that it's the learner's job to figure out where to put the fingers, how to angle the hands, the packets, etc. Once you've read/watched a few descriptions, you know what the mechanics are. Then, thoughtful practice will help you refine the move for your hands.
P! |
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Ado Inner circle New York City 1033 Posts |
Quote:
On May 31, 2017, MySurvive wrote: In terms of raw speed, you can get something like my video below. However, context, as I said, context matters a lot. I don't pass seated, because it's awkward for the arms and wrists (as you see on the video). I have about 3 handlings which are dictated by the context and allow me to cover the angles (and that I keep for actual performances; sorry). I shall add that I would *not* use the pass as a colour change, because the (classic/riffle/jiggle/etc) pass is not a static move (and if you have to move to perform a colour change, you should learn another change). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGKlNJtYtbk P! |
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seraph127 Special user 587 Posts |
Quote:
On Jun 2, 2017, Ado wrote: I'm having a bit of trouble making sense of this. Do you not think that writers who teach the pass understand the purpose of the move? That they haven't really thought about how the mechanics they describe do, or do not, accomplish the objective? Moving only the large knuckles of the left hand, letting gravity assist with the withdrawal of the upper packet, keeping the right hand still, etc. - these work points don't depend on the specific anatomy of an individual hand. I don't intend to be unpleasant or pointlessly contentious, but I am not sanguine about advising a beginner who is learning such a difficult move to be so cavalier about regarding or disregarding the written advice of writers who knew what they were talking about.
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
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Ado Inner circle New York City 1033 Posts |
Seraph: I haven't read nor watched all descriptions of the pass, but I've encountered more than a few ones that are suboptimal. With all respect to Famous Magician, there's no reason that Famous Magician's description of the pass is the best way to do it. It may have worked for him, it may work for others, but I'm not dogmatic about this move. (Hell! I don't use gravity for my pass: I pass with the deck upside down over my head as well!).
I'll just reuse and modify your example: there are books that teach you to ride a bike, but the best cyclists have modified the instructions to fit their bodies and style while keeping one goal in mind: making the pedals do full revolutions. Where they put their feet, their hands, how they stand or vouch, when they push, when they pull... All that is specific to the individual. Know what you're trying to achieve, get the basics, and adapt it. He has the basics (hold break, pinch, swap), not he's got to learn by himself how much of the pinky is needed for the break, whether he should pass with the deck parallel to the ground, whether he needs to modify his grip, etc. The pass is not a double undercut; you can't be prescriptive about it. Don't be that magician who stops thinking too early... P! |
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seraph127 Special user 587 Posts |
1) Cyclists TRAIN with coaches. They study works like this one. Computer programmers are told often not to reinvent the wheel - find and utilize the work of people who have already solved the problem you're working on. CS students aren't simply told "Here's a list of names, write a program to sort them in alphabetical order". They are taught about data structures and sort algorithms, P and NP search times, relative difficulty of insertion/deletion, etc.
2) The comparison with a double undercut is a non sequitur. Just because the DU is easier then a classic pass does not mean there are no better or worse ways to do it. "...let the reader study the chapter dealing with the false deals, supposedly the most difficult of all sleights. He will find that once he understands the correct method the various false deals may be had with a tenth the effort he may have expended in searching for a method that would work." - Hugard and Braue, Expert Card Technique Lest I be misunderstood, it's not about showcasing my knowledge of the classic literature of magic, or worshiping at the altar of Famous Magicians - you're barking up the wrong tree there. It's about heeding the advice of people who understood their subject and whose writings have already well-educated hundreds of magicians. Much better advice to the novice has already been given, to wit: Quote:
Read as much as you can, C.Lang Neil, Erdnase, Swain, Dingle, Robinson etc. Experiment with technique, grip, fingering, pressure, release of pressure, tells etc. The OP has more than enough varied advice, and so I take my leave.
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
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FalseDeal New user 76 Posts |
If you haven't bought a Genii online subscription and read Dingle's write up, you're wrong.
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1402 Posts |
Gary Ouellett DVD and book on the pass.
Earl Nelson - Lost Tapes. |
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MeetMagicMike Inner circle Gainesville Fl 3501 Posts |
I understand exactly what Ado is saying. At some point, you have to "crack" the move for yourself. Some people make a fetish out of the writings of past masters. Their hands and fingers are different, the write up may not be accurate. You have to get what you can from it and then really think about the move yourself. This is true in all fields.
I think initially it sounded like Ado was saying not to study but I think he was actually saying that studying is not always the end of the process. |
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cfirwin3 Loyal user Rochester, New York 233 Posts |
As a trumpet player... we learn to maintain the air within the mouth cavity and keep the musculature firm. The tongue should compress the air stream directly toward the center of the aperture and mouthpiece pressure should be minimal...
And then the great masters like Dizzy Gillespe and Maynard Ferguson come along... violating ALL of the rules. I think that Ado is simply saying that if you are running into a brick wall by studying X write-up about the move... then the brick wall that you are hitting might be the sacred attention to detail that you are placing in the write-up itself, rather than recognizing the hold-ups that your own anatomy and perception can create by refusing to experiment with violating the "rules" a bit. Granted... Ado did say "forget about... etc." which isn't the most eloquent way to actually say "don't treat the views of others as sacred when analyzing your own hang-ups on the move" |
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lxsim9 New user 4 Posts |
Jason England has great work on the pass, check out his video on T11: https://store.theory11.com/products/clas......-england
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SmilingMule New user 20 Posts |
Peter Duffies Move Mastery is an excellent resource for learning both the Classic and Riffle Passes.
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shaunluttin Special user 759 Posts |
> ...I would like a little direction on... the movement itself.
The right hand does not move. Here is a 29-minute live performance of mine: https://youtu.be/lq2Rj1uf05M I used to be quite sensitive to criticism; I am much less so now; so, please do criticize my technique, presentation, and posts. It helps me to grow, and I promise to take responsibility and not to be defensive. |
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