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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » A question to the professionals about presentation (9 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Vogler
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I am an amateur magician and I study the art more than I perform it.I have some experience and knowledge because I'am involved in magic from a very young age.
But I do not perform very often, comparing how much I practice and study.
So I get nervous when I'm in front of a bigger crowd and unknown people. Not that I make mistakes or something, but I don't have the pleasure to be relaxed and calm and enjoy the show and really play with the audience. I have noticed (after watching some recordings) that I'am quicker than I want, and once I learn a trick, to make it really mine and realize the weak spots of it, the effect must come in contact with the public. Once you learn perfectly a trick , how many times or how long it takes you to perform it so you make it your trick and enjoy the presentation? Even if I'am doing it flawlessly in front the mirror, when I present it to a real audience, it is a very different thing. Also when I tape myself performing in a real audience I like the moves but not my style and patter, it seems very amateurish...I have read books on presentation and I know the theory but I feel the only cure for these problems is performing every day....what the experienced guys here think these? maybe I have to write a specific patter word to word? I don't want to be a professional, but a really really good amateur magician. But can I without performing every day like a professional?
davidpaul$
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Juliano,
There is no substitute for performing as much as you can in front of people. You obviously know the routines, the mechanics and you have the experince void of performing in the real world. The more you perform for "real people", experience different personalities, enjoy successes, get caught and learn from them, over time you'll achieve your goals.

You are experiencing fear of failure. Focusing on "ENTERTAINING" your audience as opposed to being "self focused" changes your attitude. It's all about your audience. Have fun, be light hearted, involve your audience. Perform effects that have meaning to them. Let them make the magic happen by uttering a favorite magic word or waving a wand. I always keep one in my back pocket.

So, here ya go. The more you perform out in the real world and learn from your performances, what people respond and react to in a positive way or in a uninterested way, the sooner you will be on your way to be a welcomed entertainer.
IMO.
Guilt will betray you before technique betrays you!
Mike Powers
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It might help if you did a short performance using nearly self working material. You'd know that it would be over in a short time and that you wouldn't have to think about moves. Then you'd be free to really focus on having fun. Once you've gotten your feet wet this way and begin having fun, you would add material that you like that involves a little more complexity.

Start with a routine that you know will create fun for your audience. You're just the "play maker" having fun along with them.

Mike
Vogler
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Davidpaul I understand that more performing will help me , but I think magic is much better when someone asks you to do a trick. If the magician goes around asking "do you want to see something?" I think the charm and the mystique of magic is less. So this is the reason for not performing a lot. I have a full time job as an artist and magic is my hobby from my childhood. So I agree completely with you, but maybe I have to change my ideas about magic for the time being and this is not easy Smile
Mike I don't really get nervous with selfworking material. Its the fear of failure, but its not so much. Just as much anxiety is needed to make me not relaxed. I think the fact that I don't have a specific patter for every effect, and I just perform it "freestyle" it creates some stress to me. I heard that many proffesionals use very strickt written patter in a way that is not obvious. thanks guys for your help, I really appreciate it.
danaruns
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Quote:
On Aug 27, 2017, Juliano wrote:
Davidpaul I understand that more performing will help me , but I think magic is much better when someone asks you to do a trick. If the magician goes around asking "do you want to see something?" I think the charm and the mystique of magic is less. So this is the reason for not performing a lot. I have a full time job as an artist and magic is my hobby from my childhood. So I agree completely with you, but maybe I have to change my ideas about magic for the time being and this is not easy Smile
Mike I don't really get nervous with selfworking material. Its the fear of failure, but its not so much. Just as much anxiety is needed to make me not relaxed. I think the fact that I don't have a specific patter for every effect, and I just perform it "freestyle" it creates some stress to me. I heard that many proffesionals use very strickt written patter in a way that is not obvious. thanks guys for your help, I really appreciate it.


I think you've found your own solution, haven't you? Yes, you need an absolutely strict script, you need to memorize it, and you need to recite it word for word every time you perform.

Also, performing magic isn't anything at all like "doing a trick" when someone asks you. Performing is just that, and I'd say it's 80% of magic. "Doing a trick" is nothing. Zero. Doing a trick is to magic as the pledge of allegiance is to Shakespeare. You need a script (like any actor...and being a magician is being an actor), you need to put multiple tricks together in a cohesive way with a good arc, and you need to perform it strictly and identically, in the hundreds of performances you need to make yourself do over the next year. Then you won't have anxiety, and you'll actually be performing magic rather than "doing a trick," which everyone's weird uncle can do at family gatherings and which doesn't make you a magician.

It's wonderful that you want to perform. I think part of the reason you get nervous performing before an audience is that you have never actually done it before. Doing a trick for friends won't give you that experience. You just need to do it, over and over. You need to be prepared (with script memorized and material so ingrained that you don't even have to think about it), and you need repetition. And you need to draw a nice bright line between "doing a trick" when asked, and "performing magic" before an audience.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
alicauchy
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Yes, adding a script is absolutely necessary to completely assimilate any effect.
So much to do, so little time . . .
helder
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At some point in my life I may have asked the same question and at that point the answer was: go out and perform as much as you can. Today I know that they were right because I follow that advice and become better. Everything: tecniques, presentations, how you connect with your audience and so on.

There's isn't a magic solution, you have to do it, otherwise you will be just a armchair magician.

Best of luck to you

Helder
My version of Eddie fetcher "Be Honest What's it?" it's available at Penguin Magic
Check my Facebook group: Mentalism Secrets
Email: heldermagico@gmail.com
www.facebook.com/heldermagico
Vogler
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Danaruns I know the difference between tricks and magic. Iam studying because of obsession, pure sleight of hand, no gimmicks, and I can perform really hard moves with my fingers. Also I have seen lot of magic live and on video. I have read history of magic and theory on presentation from Vernon, Giobbi, Ascanio. Tarbell, Fitzkee, Tamariz, and many others. I don't want to do a "trick", I respect magic as an art and this is one of the reasons Iam getting stressed while performing... I appreciate your advice and I think what I need is constructed script at every routine. Now I have a script for any effect that I perform, but is so loose that It doesn't really help the performance. But when someone asks you to do a trick in a party and you perform real magic...for me this is the deal. I don't want to be a professional, I just want to perform real magic when someone asks me to do a trick. Thanks guys and girls for your valuable help!
Vogler
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Helder you are right... I will try to found more chances to perform Smile
Jon Strum
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I'm not sure that the best solution is to just go out and perform. By the time you're performing for an audience, you ought to feel prepated to comfortably do so. While you indicate how often you practice, you don't say how much you rehearse, and there's a vast difference between the two. Practice gives you confidence in your moves. Rehearsal is about directing your audience's sight lines...leaning forward or leaning back when you're seated at the table (wacth a Slydini video for a madterclass), when you turn your body to the right or left, when you extend your arms if you're holding a deck of cards, and everything that you will say. You may be uncomfortable during performances because you aren't "practicing" your performances. And that's what rehearsing is all about. Try doing your entire act or routine a few hundred times without any props, so you'll be working on everything BUT your moves. Then get in front of an audience, and I think you will see and feel a real difference.
"Do you like card tricks?" he asked.
I said no. He did five.
Vogler
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Thank you for your advice Jon Strum. I haven't really work in my rehearsal...I will work on it.
flowerthief
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Hey Juliano,

I know you directed this question at professionals, which I am not. But as one amateur to another, I can give you some specific advice that is different from what you've heard here so far, and which MIGHT be just what you need. If not, go ahead and chuck it in the barf bin; what do I know, I'm just an amateur, not much farther along than you.

Back when I was in your position of having done the study but lacking the performing experience, I knew as you know and as everyone has told us that the answer was to "go perform more!" But being able to perform dazzling stunts with confidence in front of a group when called upon is a huge leap from practicing by yourself in front of a mirror. How do you bridge that gap?

The key is to match the pressure/stress level of the performing circumstances to your experience level performing the trick in question. (yes, I am going to use the word "trick"; gotta start there!) And slowly work your way up.

If you have only performed in front of one person, you are not ready to be performing in front of a large group.
If you are at Experience Level 2 you shouldn't be performing at Pressure Level 12.
This is an RPG. You don't go battling end-game bosses without first slaying numerous goblins and rats, incrementally making your character proportionately strong to the challenge. So let's find some rats.

It is not a new concept. Maybe it is so obvious that we forget to tell it to beginners. Or maybe I don't know what the blazes I'm talking about, but the system I'm about to describe has helped me at least:

LEVEL 1

You've newly learned or come up with a trick that you like. I'll give you advice that goes against others' advice. DON'T practice that trick to perfection yet. Practice it SOMEWHAT. No more. For one thing, you might find out that it doesn't play out in performance as well as it sounded on paper, or it doesn't fit your style. For another thing...your mileage may vary, but for some personalities (:cough: mine) you could actually feel MORE nervous about a trick you have practiced endlessly when you finally perform it for the first time in front of a person who does not look like yourself in reverse, than if you had taken a more casual attitude.

That first actual person should be a close friend or confidant. Someone who knows you are learning magic. Someone who knows that you might screw up royally, or that the trick itself might not be that good to begin with, but who likes seeing your new material to the extent of becoming your willing guinea pig, and who will give you honest feedback. This is all mutually understood between you, so the pressure level is very low -- not zero, but low. Ideally you have more than one such friend. Depending on their reactions you might find yourself modifying the trick. Or shelving it. Or treating your friend to expensive delicacies to compensate for his wasted time. Or you conclude that it really is worth (eventually) perfecting, so you practice it more extensively before going on to the next level.

LEVEL 2

You know the trick is solid and you have performed it in front of an actual person. Both of these facts should serve to raise your confidence slightly yet significantly.

The next thing I do is perform the trick in front of a stranger. It could be someone sitting next to me at a bus stop or in a public food court or somewhere like that. It could also be an acquaintance who you don't see often, but I prefer a stranger. There are a limitless number of them and whatever happens you will never see each other again, provided you don't live on the fringe of the outskirts of Lonely Rock.

I say no more than "hey, look at this" as I do a quick and flashy effect such as a vanish or color change. Also, I target females. They tend to make for a better audience. Plus, if the female is attractive there is an extra incentive to force myself to speak to her. Sometimes I end up getting her number. Then, because I am only clinically interested in magic, I proceed to make her phone number vanish too. (Ok, that's a lie)

The Quick And Flashy Thing serves two purposes:

1) It shows her your intention and puts her at ease. "Oh I see, he just wants to show me a magic trick. I can deal with that", she thinks. We are all immediately apprehensive whenever a stranger approaches us, so it is important to demonstrate very rapidly that your intention is harmless.

2) Depending on her reaction you can judge whether to go into the actual trick that you want practice performing. If she seemed to like it, continue. If her reaction is cold, shrug it off and bother her no further. Plenty of other strangers who don't hate magic out there.

So get a trusty Quick And Flashy Thing under your belt as soon as you can. You only need one. (I've claimed the bottom-card-to-right-palm color change. If you use that one too we might have a problem Smile)

If the idea of shoving a deck of cards in the face of someone you don't know is scary, consider that the worst thing that can happen is that you botch it up and have to explain "I'm still practicing this" or "I'm new at magic" or "flowerthief told me to do it". Many people will like you MORE for your honesty than if you had actually nailed the trick. Most will smile. Then you go your separate ways and never see each other again. No loss of prestige.

Do this multiple times in front of multiple strangers, one single stranger at a time. You probably want to avoid situations where there are onlookers because that will just make you more nervous; we're still at a low level here. Sitting down is preferred when in public.

LEVEL 3

The next thing is to perform in front of 2 or 3 people at the same time. I find that it doesn't matter greatly if they are friends or strangers or a combination of both. Just that there are multiple people watching. I mean, if one person calls you out on your Riffle Force then the other person is gonna hear that too and they'll both be on to your sneakiness. Thus multiple spectators raises the pressure level, because the potential is there that nobody can ever use a Riffle Force in public again. But you have substantial experience performing this trick now so you are up to that level of pressure. Your presentation is improving as your experience performing this one trick mounts. You should also be continuing to practice it in private.

If you are getting this far, the goal of performing in front of a group on demand is in sight, but from here I am usually thinking about routining. Thoughtfully stringing together tricks that I have confidence in performing with other tricks that I have confidence in performing to create non-stop sequences of amazing magic. Performing a decent-length routine brings with it a higher pressure level to be worked up to. We're fighting baby wyverns and headless knights with axes now, but there are tougher foes waiting on deeper floors.

This is getting long and everyone is thinking "Put an electronic cigarette in it already, amateur". You get the idea.
DaveGripenwaldt
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I think FT has some very good suggestions for getting acclimated to performing.

I would just add that if the "hey watch this" approach is stressful, you can try a different one. A lot of people are willing to help...even for a stranger...and you can be be disarming with people by simply asking them for the favor of getting their input.

People love being asked about what they think and you can make that your approach. Something like, "Excuse me - sorry for interrupting, but I was wondering if you could help me with an opinion? I am practicing for a magic performance and want to get some feed back. May I show you something really quickly?"

That approach has some advantages. You can do something more involved than a quickie. It asks for their input and opinion, and people love to give opinions. It sets up right away why you are talking to them, which in these suspicious time gets their guard down a bit. It also gives them a chance to say no.

And one further benefit is that you have invited comment so they just might tell you something of value about your performance or technique, i.e., "Well, I saw when you did x".

Just a thought.
Vogler
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Thanks guys, for your contributions. But I don't really have performance anxiety, at least in front of 3 or 4 people. I think my problem is that I don't had a web of script to make me feel more secure with all the little things inside the routine. I started writing scripting notes in my notebook with pauses, some jokes and climax and a new world opened to me.Of course you have to play it as an actor to don't feel canned. Its the first time that I occupied myself with the parts of the effect that "don't have to do with the trick" and now I really feel my myself as a performer. For years I knew about script but I never used the idea, I was talking with instant scripts with many ehhh and hmmm. And many times if you are without script you struggle to give instructions to the audience. For me its an new creative process.
jaschris
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Juliano. I appreciate your anxieties. I am not a professional either but practice an awful lot in contrast to how much I actually perform.
I too need to perform more often and would welcome suggestions from others on how to create more performing opportunities. I am not ready to go commercial and seek money for performing. I will say though I rarely miss the opportunity at parties or family get togethers, or sometimes at the bar, but as a result I have a larger repertoire of tricks more than I have a perfected repertoire. I really just need more audiences.
But back to your original questions. I have learned that it is critical to write patter and script things out. Your patter should be scripted and timed and timing gets better with every performance. You may think you sound overly rehearsed at first but your script is like a trunk, where quite quickly from frequent performing you will develop some branches and good audience interplay. The more you rehearse your script and practice your sleight of hand technique the less nerves will matter. Because even though you may be nervous, you know your material so well (both trick and patter) you are performing almost unconsciously. Your confidence will grow, you will make fewer mistakes and the audience will sense your confidence. And then you will be more self-assured in wanting to put yourself out there as a performer. I have been into magic as an ongoing hobby for 13 years, but for most of those was way too focused on technical development. As a result my technical skills are far ahead of my performance skills. Only in the past few years have I focused more on performance skills, which if anything, are more important than great technique. Best of luck out there.
MagicJuggler
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As far as finding performing opportunities volunteering at a rest home or hospital can be good experience and they will love you for it.

Scripting is important, as well as knowing it backwards and forwards but it's really important to pay attention to your audience so you can continue to revise and rewrite. In my experience jokes that seemed funny on paper fell flat, seeming clever patter ended up being a bunch of unnecessary words, and flow and timing end up being different in real life.

Also it's important to be able to go off book. That's one of the keys to be able to have seamless audience interaction. I was reading something that was written by a prominent stand up comic and he said, "The act is what you fall back on when you can't think of anything to say." Some of my best informal performances were when I just improvised with tricks that I can do blind folded. Needless to say the stuff that resonated with the crowd worked it's way into my normal routines.
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I heard from a friend that anecdotal evidence is actually quite reliable.
Vogler
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Jaschris thank you very much for your post, it is helpful. Happy to share my weird problems with other guys in the world , and your post seems that you are making your progress. MagicJuggler I agree completely. But what I have more is the interaction , Iam not bad at this, and I have natural humor. What I feel that I miss now is scripting as a constructing tool to my performance. But always an interactive scripting. One thing that I read and helped me but I cant recall now the source, the that practicing magic home is a very esoteric work but performing must be a very social and outgoing process, so the magician has to understand the contrast of the two situations and to work on these to control them.
startingout
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As with Jaschris and yourself. Practice an awful lot in contrast to how much I actually perform.
You take for example Jay Sankey, Paul Daniles (RIP),Bill Malone and David Williams, to name a few.
There patter is like their magic seamless and natural. Some people comes natural gift of the gab. As with any thing sport have natural players, those that need to put that extra practice in....
Then you think, how long have these been performing, what is their back ground? grotty working mens clubs, hecklers, etc.
Depending what your audience is and trick performed.
Yes take Professors nightmare, chop cup, cups and balls, etc. Script it.
But then close up You could have some base patter but not really script, as need to work with the feed back from your audience.
You cannot get more experience than going out and doing. Start off with simple things that so you don't need to concentrate on moves, but on audience interaction.

Good luck
startingout
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Quote:
On Sep 6, 2017, flowerthief wrote:
Hey Juliano,

I know you directed this question at professionals, which I am not. But as one amateur to another, I can give you some specific advice that is different from what you've heard here so far, and which MIGHT be just what you need. If not, go ahead and chuck it in the barf bin; what do I know, I'm just an amateur, not much farther along than you.

Back when I was in your position of having done the study but lacking the performing experience, I knew as you know and as everyone has told us that the answer was to "go perform more!" But being able to perform dazzling stunts with confidence in front of a group when called upon is a huge leap from practicing by yourself in front of a mirror. How do you bridge that gap?

The key is to match the pressure/stress level of the performing circumstances to your experience level performing the trick in question. (yes, I am going to use the word "trick"; gotta start there!) And slowly work your way up.

If you have only performed in front of one person, you are not ready to be performing in front of a large group.
If you are at Experience Level 2 you shouldn't be performing at Pressure Level 12.
This is an RPG. You don't go battling end-game bosses without first slaying numerous goblins and rats, incrementally making your character proportionately strong to the challenge. So let's find some rats.

It is not a new concept. Maybe it is so obvious that we forget to tell it to beginners. Or maybe I don't know what the blazes I'm talking about, but the system I'm about to describe has helped me at least:

LEVEL 1

You've newly learned or come up with a trick that you like. I'll give you advice that goes against others' advice. DON'T practice that trick to perfection yet. Practice it SOMEWHAT. No more. For one thing, you might find out that it doesn't play out in performance as well as it sounded on paper, or it doesn't fit your style. For another thing...your mileage may vary, but for some personalities (:cough: mine) you could actually feel MORE nervous about a trick you have practiced endlessly when you finally perform it for the first time in front of a person who does not look like yourself in reverse, than if you had taken a more casual attitude.

That first actual person should be a close friend or confidant. Someone who knows you are learning magic. Someone who knows that you might screw up royally, or that the trick itself might not be that good to begin with, but who likes seeing your new material to the extent of becoming your willing guinea pig, and who will give you honest feedback. This is all mutually understood between you, so the pressure level is very low -- not zero, but low. Ideally you have more than one such friend. Depending on their reactions you might find yourself modifying the trick. Or shelving it. Or treating your friend to expensive delicacies to compensate for his wasted time. Or you conclude that it really is worth (eventually) perfecting, so you practice it more extensively before going on to the next level.

LEVEL 2

You know the trick is solid and you have performed it in front of an actual person. Both of these facts should serve to raise your confidence slightly yet significantly.

The next thing I do is perform the trick in front of a stranger. It could be someone sitting next to me at a bus stop or in a public food court or somewhere like that. It could also be an acquaintance who you don't see often, but I prefer a stranger. There are a limitless number of them and whatever happens you will never see each other again, provided you don't live on the fringe of the outskirts of Lonely Rock.

I say no more than "hey, look at this" as I do a quick and flashy effect such as a vanish or color change. Also, I target females. They tend to make for a better audience. Plus, if the female is attractive there is an extra incentive to force myself to speak to her. Sometimes I end up getting her number. Then, because I am only clinically interested in magic, I proceed to make her phone number vanish too. (Ok, that's a lie)

The Quick And Flashy Thing serves two purposes:

1) It shows her your intention and puts her at ease. "Oh I see, he just wants to show me a magic trick. I can deal with that", she thinks. We are all immediately apprehensive whenever a stranger approaches us, so it is important to demonstrate very rapidly that your intention is harmless.

2) Depending on her reaction you can judge whether to go into the actual trick that you want practice performing. If she seemed to like it, continue. If her reaction is cold, shrug it off and bother her no further. Plenty of other strangers who don't hate magic out there.

So get a trusty Quick And Flashy Thing under your belt as soon as you can. You only need one. (I've claimed the bottom-card-to-right-palm color change. If you use that one too we might have a problem Smile)

If the idea of shoving a deck of cards in the face of someone you don't know is scary, consider that the worst thing that can happen is that you botch it up and have to explain "I'm still practicing this" or "I'm new at magic" or "flowerthief told me to do it". Many people will like you MORE for your honesty than if you had actually nailed the trick. Most will smile. Then you go your separate ways and never see each other again. No loss of prestige.

Do this multiple times in front of multiple strangers, one single stranger at a time. You probably want to avoid situations where there are onlookers because that will just make you more nervous; we're still at a low level here. Sitting down is preferred when in public.

LEVEL 3

The next thing is to perform in front of 2 or 3 people at the same time. I find that it doesn't matter greatly if they are friends or strangers or a combination of both. Just that there are multiple people watching. I mean, if one person calls you out on your Riffle Force then the other person is gonna hear that too and they'll both be on to your sneakiness. Thus multiple spectators raises the pressure level, because the potential is there that nobody can ever use a Riffle Force in public again. But you have substantial experience performing this trick now so you are up to that level of pressure. Your presentation is improving as your experience performing this one trick mounts. You should also be continuing to practice it in private.

If you are getting this far, the goal of performing in front of a group on demand is in sight, but from here I am usually thinking about routining. Thoughtfully stringing together tricks that I have confidence in performing with other tricks that I have confidence in performing to create non-stop sequences of amazing magic. Performing a decent-length routine brings with it a higher pressure level to be worked up to. We're fighting baby wyverns and headless knights with axes now, but there are tougher foes waiting on deeper floors.

This is getting long and everyone is thinking "Put an electronic cigarette in it already, amateur". You get the idea.


Hmm personally I kind of disagree, but this is just personal preference.
The Quick And Flashy Thing, ok with a quick trick to get them interested, flashy? hmmm being flashy, kind of showing off. ohh look what I can do. So what the point of me picking a card you know what it is. So would be care full on that one..
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