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lynnef Inner circle 1407 Posts |
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On Oct 6, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote: Regulating guns is very different than outlawing guns. I absolutely believe in the right to own guns; and not just because of the US Constitution. Australia didn't outlaw guns in 1996. They banned assault and semiautomatic rifles. Despite opposition from the US NRA (!), politicians left and right came to agreement. They didn't stop murder; they didn't's stop suicide; they didn't stop terrorism. There has even been relaxing of regulations in West Australia (eg minors owning guns)! But for the last 10 years, there have been no mass murders perpetrated by a nutball with a rapid fire assault rifle. It's not to say it'll never happen there again. Just saying it gave some people some breathing room. Lynn |
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lynnef Inner circle 1407 Posts |
Did I say 10 years? I meant 20 years! Lynn
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Http://www.aei.org/publication/chart-of-......nd-2013/
What do we do with the fact that gun ownership has risen and deaths by them has fallen? I do not imply that it is the cause, but it is putting the lie to "more guns more death".
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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On Oct 6, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote: You're missing my point here. The proposal put forth was an attempt to come to a fair solution; I was pointing out that the "voting with your feet" principle is not, in fact, very fair. I remember when abortions were illegal in New York State--the rich people could fly off to some clinic where it was legal, while the poor had back alley abortions and many died. There has to be a better solution.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Actually no.
The fact is that is the way things are intended to be. What works in New York doesn't necessarily work in Alabama. That is why we are 50 different state governments. That is why each state SHOULD be in charge of these things. Regardless of notions of "fair" it is how it was intended and this is or should not be in dispute. Is it "fair" to impose massive federal regulations designed for big cities on small rural towns? My guess is you never lived in one or perhaps never even visited one. But the point is that one size absolutely does not fit all and it is a problem when you try to make it "fair". Fair is a moving goal post and a slippery notion.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
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On Oct 8, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote: That tension between state and federal governments was a price paid for our constitution. Consider the fuss back then over interstate commerce. And look at the linguistic contortions to avoid the shame of slavery being okay in some states. What do we do if they say a foot is twelve inches in New York and foot is eleven inches in Alabama... and it's okay to teach and test that the moon is made of cheese in Ohio but it has to be a painted image in the sky in Florida... Maybe some folks were born into a culture of willful ignorance. The Dickens you say? Read and weep for us all. http://literature.org/authors/dickens-ch......-03.html Quote: The chimes were ringing the three quarters past eleven at that moment.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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Regardless of notions of "fair" it is how it was intended and this is or should not be in dispute. Disagree. It's all up for dispute, even within the confines of the Constitution. That's why there is an Amendment process. Notions of fairness are crucial. While fairness is contested, it is important to have that argument. Each law must be given consideration as to who benefits and who loses. This is the very meaning of a society. Willful consent of the governed comes only out of perceived fairness. I'm actually more for local control than you might think. But even local law must be even-handed.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
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On Oct 8, 2017, landmark wrote: In the land of the cynic, is skepticsm apostasy? Is low grade street commodity consent manufactured in China?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
If you're getting at Stockholm syndrome, where the enslaved are taught to adore their enslavers, yes, that's always a possibility. But then there's always Spartacus, and the examples of history.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On Oct 8, 2017, landmark wrote: Fair is simply a unicorn. What the problem is is you look for fairness on outcome as opposed to in opportunity. Too often notions of fairness are used to beat the other side down. You can always take any situation and claim it is not fair.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Like "it's not fair to control all automatic weapons because of the actions of isolated individuals."
Or "It's not fair to tax wealthier people at a rate higher than poor people." And so on. Everyone professes to believe in fairness except maybe monarchists and elitists. That's a good thing. But yes, what is actually fair in a given situation is not always crystal clear. That doesn't mean that the concept of fairness isn't self-evident in some situations, and that the concept isn't fundamental. That's why we have a court system; that's why the document says "All men are created equal," not "Landowners are more worthy of rights than others," even though that was the practical result. You can't just throw the whole notion of fairness into the dustbin, without turning the clock back to feudalism. Now your point that definitions of fairness are interpreted differently by different interests is well taken; but the way those arguments are unpacked are by examining those notions closely and fighting it out. But the direction is always fairness. The alternative is barbarism.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
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On Oct 9, 2017, landmark wrote: The direction IS always fairness. That's why I have hope. What's your definition of fair as it would/could be practically applied?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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