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EndersGame Inner circle Reviewer EndersGame 2196 Posts |
Everyone begins at the beginner level. What skills in card magic would you say you need to have mastered to be considered an "intermediate level" card magician?
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fonda57 Inner circle chicago 3078 Posts |
I don't put much faith in terms like that. There will be a wide range of answers and then it will be impossible to know for sure.
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Doc Willie Regular user 160 Posts |
Intermediate:
1. You started more than six weeks ago. 2. You are not Michael Ammar. End of conversation. |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
I must be intermediate - 'cause I'm not Michael Ammar. (Wonder if he's intermediate - 'cause he ain't me!)
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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Rachmaninov Inner circle 1076 Posts |
Excellent answer Willie !
It means nothing to be intermediate. For example, Card College 1 and 2 are seen as a beginner books and after 20 years in magic, I’m not sure I could say I have mastered all the contents. And I have « good hands » and I’ve practiced and thought a lot on this material. But we can look at what is said for book ads compared with the difficulty of the material. When they say intermediate, it means that you master a dozen of the fundamentals moves (glimpse, control, force, switch, double lift…) so you can do 90 % of the published magic tricks. That is technically speaking. Performing is an entire different subjetct. Artistically too. |
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Mobius303 Inner circle Lakewood, Ohio 1309 Posts |
It begs the question as to what is advanced then?
Intermediate means you can do all basics and are working on various more difficult material. Advanced material is difficult and not many are doing it or working on it. A double lift is a beginning sleight. A top change could be considered intermediate. A Zarrow shuffle could be considered advanced as you begin to learn it at the intermediate level but use it at advanced. At least that is how it may seem to some. Harry you have nothing to worry about because you do all of it, we have video of it. |
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JoeHohman Special user Erie 706 Posts |
I like these responses so far, but I might add that an intermediate is someone who knows enough to plan his set so that there is some variety in effect that the spectator sees, plus variety in method.
Said another way: when I plan my sets, I try to select my effects so that there is no more than one pick-a-card effect (and perhaps none); no more than one four-ace routine (and perhaps none); no more than one "wild coincidence" type effect; and so on. Meanwhile, I also prepare the set so that there is no more than one effect relying on the DL; no more than one relying on an Elmsley; no more than one relying on a pass; etc. (I hope this makes me an intermediate; I know I'm not an expert!) |
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ssibal Veteran user 352 Posts |
I don’t think what sleights you can or can’t do makes a difference. What’s more important is your experience performing in front of real people and how you prepare for your performances.
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Rachmaninov Inner circle 1076 Posts |
We were speaking of what you can do in front of an audience of course.
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Mobius303 Inner circle Lakewood, Ohio 1309 Posts |
Yes I would agree that planning or scripting a set or two is in the intermediate realm and is on the road to advanced.
Racmaninov we were talking about skills, so, it is not just what you can do in front of an audience but how you do it as well should be a factor. |
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danaruns Special user The City of Angels 808 Posts |
I think such categorization is essentially meaningless except in the most amorphous, muddle-headed way. Goes with terms like "world class" and "master magician." It's a meaningless term that is intended to import a vague notion of hierarchical placement without actually saying anything of specific meaning. As such, the best you ca say about the term "intermediate level" is that it denotes someone who is not a raw beginner, but also is not among the most highly skilled.
I'm also of the opinion that when you get to a certain level, there is no "better" or "best," there is only "different." I'm not one who thinks art fits well into a military-style hierarchy. But taking a crack at it, I suppose that, to me, an intermediate card magician would be one who still thinks about the cards when performing card magic. That puts an awful lot of pros in the intermediate category.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 1, 2018, Mobius303 wrote: Performing is a skill, or, more precisely a collection of skills and one that is too often ignored in magic. Let's have a conversation about it. Aldo Colombini - may his memory be eternal - in my estimation was an advanced magician yet he eschewed knuckle busting methods for other methods that are as diabolical but also, Aldo was a magnificent performer. All of this is highly subjective of course. In three threads I have created here I too have fallen into the trap of classifying a skill level for any routine I cite. I make the assumption - yeah I know - that performance is already factored in and that's an error. Perhaps I should have just written that a given routine requires a number of sleights and if the performer is interested she will research the routine further. Subjectivity enters the fray again: someone in this thread labeled the DL a beginner's sleight. My word means nothing really so I will argue that the DL is NOT a beginner's sleight and I will direct you to Michael Close's explanation that supports my argument. Michael Close is - to me and to many - an advanced magician. Some of the best advanced magicians around in my estimation/opinion include but are not limited to: Bill Malone, Harry Lorayne, Michael Vincent, Dan Harlan, Wayne Dobson, Juan Tamariz, Richard Turner (yes I know he is not a magician but he is a much better performer than many of us), Shoot Ogawa, Pop Haydn, Paul Green, Chef Anton, Ferry Gerats, Marion Boykin, and Simon Lovell. ANY of these performers could take any trick out of a beginner's magic set and perform in such a way that they will fool you proudly and entertain you thoroughly. Yet even my argument about performance is a slippery slope. I consider Stewart James a master of the art. I never got the chance to see him perform yet his influence on magic is just as profound as Vernon and Marlo. Magic is unique among the arts in that we must conceal our "skill." Someone once stated that the reason magicians have conventions is that the need to conceal one's chops creates a need to be able to "perform" for the cognoscenti and discuss methods. Still, I cannot and would not remove performance from the mix. I know a magician who had learned to faro and then to execute Paul Gertner's Unshuffled, all in three days. His technical execution of this fine routine was flawless. His performance of this fine routine was so bad it was criminal. I am always amused when someone states, "There are no difficult sleights so you can concentrate on performance." The thinking being that as one hones her performance chops on "easy" stuff will subsequently apply good performance/presentation to routines that are more technically demanding. While that may be true in theory, it is not so in practice. How many times have you heard a magician state, "As you can see this is a regular deck and the cards are well mixed?" Such a statement is bad performance because it insults your audience. Moreover, since many people have seen magic performed by children and thus having a passing familiarity with gaffed stuff, your statement COULD raise a huge red flag. If you want to establish that your pack is on the up and up, then just shuffle the ***ned thing and casually place it on your table or in a spectator's hands while you continue performing. You haven't wasted time with inane comments and you HAVE established by your casually giving the pack to a spectator and NOT uttering anything about its normality. My assertion that performance skills are just as important as technically demanding methods seems to be supported for example by Ron Bauer's Private Studies series. Mr. Bauer deconstructs a routine then recombines it and giving you not only the how but the why and the "why" is performance. Mr. Bauer's series treats each routine as live theater. I mentioned Pop Haydn earlier in this post. Kick up a few videos of Pop performing and it should be obvious why many consider him one of the best. His Chicago Surprise is really a mini-course that brings every aspect of a performing art together so beautifully. Anybody here that has Paul Green's In the Trenches has seen a great performer. All of that being said, I'm not certain I know what the hell I am going on about as I think of how I would categorize myself. When I think of the performers I listed, I am most definitely a beginner. I think - God willing - that in another ten years I'll be intermediate once I tackle the double side steal bottom palming Greek deal version 26 from Marlo but with no cigar. Sorry about the train wreck of disjointed words; it's the meds. |
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funnymagic Regular user The funny farm 166 Posts |
Beginner moves - cross cut force, the glide, double lift, erdnase change
Intermediate - top change, palming, culling, side steal, mercury fold, faro shuffle Advanced - Second dealing, classic force, diagonal palm shift, false riffle shuffle, the pass |
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rabbitok New user Sydney, Australia 52 Posts |
Beginner : Out of this world, Poker Players Picnic, ten card poker deal
Intermediate: Ambitious Card, ACAAN, Triumph Advanced: True Cull & Deal Demos |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 9, 2018, funnymagic wrote: The double lift is not a beginner's sleight. Please check out Michael Close's thoughts on why in his Workers series. As for me, the double lifts I have seen executed by some magicians are atrocious. You consider a full deck riffle MORE advanced than a Faro??!! Thank Heaven this thread is about OPINION. |
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danaruns Special user The City of Angels 808 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 10, 2018, Vlad_77 wrote: No, he considers a FALSE riffle shuffle more advanced than a Faro. Which it clearly is.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 10, 2018, danaruns wrote: Thank you for pointing out my omission. I'm curious as to your reason for thinking a full deck riffle shuffle is more advanced than a faro. Obviously your conclusion is neither right nor wrong; and the same goes for me. So I invite you to exchange thoughts on the subject. Best, Vlad |
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asherfox Veteran user 366 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 10, 2018, Vlad_77 wrote: I have not read his book. But I must agree dl is not a beginner's sleight. Only a few magicians care how to get into the get ready and when to turn over the double. I think he mean riffle stacking. |
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Poof-Daddy Inner circle Considering Stopping At Exactly 5313 Posts |
Why do people seem to equate "gambling moves" with advanced? There are people who can do many of those moves yet do not even perform "magic effects" (True Card Sharps). On the flip side, A well placed Cross Cut Force can be very well hidden and powerful.
I agree with what others have stated. I personally do not equate "what sleights you know and do well" having ANYTHING to do with your (or my) level of professionalism (beginner, intermediate or advanced). I also believe it has way more to do with how you entertain real audiences. There are people out there who can execute perfect passes, Diagonal Palm Shifts, crazy accurate pinkie counts but only on YouTube or in front of a mirror. That is more of a "move monkey" than a magician. If you have a perfect DPS and no effect to use it with, What is the sense?
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure
Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased). |
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Waterloophai Inner circle Belgium 1368 Posts |
Edited: I agree with Poof-Daddy. (I had not read his post yet when I wrote mine)
Beginner: all the moves/sleights mentioned above intermediate: the way the magician does it advanced: the way the magician does it |
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