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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
You know, I'm not a researcher or historian - not bragging; I know it's a deficiency - I honestly don't know anything of the above. All I know is that I was doing/teaching a routine called Deal & Duck - and from that, I devised A Much Better Chance. That's what I recall, that's all I know. This is the first I'm hearing all these things. All I want to stress here is - what Penn & Teller do/did on their show IS MY A MUCH BETTER CHANCE. That's really all I care about straightening out. If it helps any, here are some remarks straight from the very beginning of mu A MUCH BETTER CHANCE write-up in PERSONAL COLLECTION:
"Deal And Duck, in DECK-STERITY (1967)is my take-off on a Bill Simon effect. Bill loved my handling/presentation of his idea. I had added the "deal and duck" concept. ...I realized that it would appear as if I was giving the spectator more of a choice if I dealt two cards onto the table (or held them in my hand)and had him take or leave either one - "and I'll get rid of the other one." Enough already!
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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Your Thinking Cap Elite user 408 Posts |
Fair enough, Mr. Lorayne! I'm not a researcher or historian either - just a junior in college waiting for school to start up again, and using the time to retype card magic history on a Monday morning. Plus, I'm a long time fan of your work.
Let the record show, for those interested, that Bannon cites "Deal and Duck" as well in Dear Mr. Fantasy.^^^ Anyway, I wish you nothing but the best of luck in releasing "AND FINALLY!," as I'm sure it will be an instant classic. Best, Andrew |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
You know, I really don't want to bother with this anymore, but - then I see something and it makes me think - "Yeah; I'm 92 years old ... is my mind going? Am I losing it?" Because - I just read - locked in - on this from an above post -
"Personal Collection, 2001, p 205: Harry Lorayne publishes "A Much Better Chance." Here, I will quote what Hartman has to say: "In his book Personal Collection, Harry Lorayne remarks without specific reference that he was shown the Bannon-Blomberg handling and sought to simplify it... He then describes 'A Much Better Chance,' an obviously inadvertent move-for-move reinvention of David Solomon's original entry in Only, No. 3, warts and all!" (Card Dupery, P. 182)." Now listen carefully - let me know that I'm not going crazy, getting senile, because of old age: I JUST RE-READ MY ITEM, A MUCH BETTER CHANCE, in my book PERSONAL COLLECTION. I read it over and over and over - and over - just to be sure my mind hasn't left me --- and --- NOWHERE DO I SAY WHAT ANDREW SAYS JK HARTMAN SAYS IN CARD DUPERY. NOWHERE. Am I being clear, here? NOWHERE. Or, wait a minute, can it be the other way around --- that I'm the only one here who is sane!? What the heck is happening?!? People saying I said things that I never said - making up sillinesses. Anyone here have a copy of PERSONAL COLLECTION - let me know if you find ANYTHING like is said above that I said. Incredible. I just don't get it --- JK Hartman is a fan of mine - why in the world would he say something that is completely NOT SO? I really must be going nuts.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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Tim Cavendish Inner circle 1404 Posts |
Harry Lorayne, Personal Collection, p. 205:
Deal And Duck, in DECK-STERITY (1967) is my take off on a Bill Simon effect. Bill was a long-time friend. He loved my handling/presentation of his idea. I had added the "deal and duck" concept. Anyway, after performing it for some years, I realized that it might appear as if I was giving the spectator more of a choice if I dealt two cards onto the table and had him or her take either one -- "And I'll get rid of the other one" -- and I'd put the "other one" back to beneath the in-hand cards. It accomplishes the same thing, but no "deal and duck" patter. Well, I did it for a few magicians; I used it sometimes, sometimes I went back to my original "deal and duck" presentation. The dealing of two cards left/right onto the table got around. I saw magicians using it -- in the last few years, and currently. The idea evolved into longer, sometimes better routines. So now, over three decades after the fact... Two or three people show me a 10-card, 2-handed, poker deal, based on the above, which I like. They can't give me any "background," but I know that Alex Elmsley did a similar routine using bottom deals. Michael Vincent does an excellent variation of that. I, personally, don't like, or use, bottom deals. There's a problem with the routine I saw. According to your spectator's first selection, you could end up with either a royal flush (in spades) or a straight flush. The spectator always ends up with a full house. ---- The bolded paragraph as described by JK Hartman: "In his book Personal Collection, Harry Lorayne remarks without specific reference that he was shown the Bannon-Blomberg handling and sought to simplify it... He then describes 'A Much Better Chance,' an obviously inadvertent move-for-move reinvention of David Solomon's original entry in Only, No. 3, warts and all!" (Card Dupery, P. 182). |
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Billybonkers Loyal user Diamond Bar L.A 251 Posts |
After Harry's recommendation I pulled out my copy of Special Effects and have been learning A much better chance. It's beautifully described and written and is obviously engaging and entertaining for an audience. Im looking forward to adding it to my gig this weekend. Thanks Harry.
I'm Looking forward to "And Finally. |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Okay; forced me to do a bit of research. I had mc'd a show at the Player's Club in NYC back in the 1980s. Penn & Teller were on the show. So, I know that the "all-knowledeables" above won't be able to check this out - because they simply don't read the good stuff! - but for those of you who have the APOCALYPSE volumes. Check my editorial in the March 1986 issue - page 1187.
I talk about the evening's show and after the show about a group of us going down to the grill to have a drink or two and to do card magic for each other - Jay Marshall, Vic Sendax Bob Lansing, Penn & Teller, and so on. And, I fooled all including Penn and Teller with some card stuff. Now, there's no way to lock it in, but I believe I did my A Much Better Chance for all then and there. Which of course is the entire point of this thread. Anyway...
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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tenchu Inner circle Europe 1117 Posts |
I can only guess that the trick you were doing in the late 60's/early 70's was probably "Deal & Duck", not "A Much Better Chance".
Why? I read an excerpt from your "Special Effects" book, where you write that you saw a routine you liked, but you had one problem with it: the beginning, where - depending on a free choice of one out of two cards - you could end up with either a royal flush or a straight flush. The spectator always ends up with a full house. This sounds like John Bannon's trick. And it's from 1999. I can't imagine it being a different trick from the 60's/50's/whatever which you saw. "If I could solve that, it'd be one hell of a routine. Well, I solved it in a very obvious way." You're talking about a trick from 1999. Solving that apparent "problem", you recreated the Dave Solomon original, which uses e'voque. Mike |
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magicfish Inner circle 7004 Posts |
I have all the books in question, in fact, my copy of Card Dupery was sent to me complimentary from Mr. Hartman himself.�
Mr. Lorayne is a giant, perhaps THE giant of the ten card poker deal plot and has been experimenting with head to head versions for several decades. Mr. Lorayne doesn't read other people's books. He saw a routine, improved it and published it. In Mr. Hartmans opinion, it must've been the Bannon handling he saw (since Harry made no specific reference) and inadvertently reinvented Solomons routine. Maybe. Maybe not. Hartman could be mistaken. He doesn't know for sure and neither do we. Harry was sessioning with "Day" Vernon in New York before Vernon moved west. He has been doing card magic for 80 years and has been a leading creator in elite inner circles for 60 years. He may have published his routine in 2001 but was performing it for a decade(s) prior- as he does with most routines before he publishes them.� This is just my opinion. |
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Ross W Inner circle UK 1778 Posts |
Why not just ask Penn or Teller which version they are using? Teller is a pretty stand-up guy. I had some indirect dealings with Teller ages ago when he wanted to use a trick I had co-created. He was very nice and keen not to rip anyone off.
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
I looked over Power of Poker by John Bannon. It is a fine routine as is A Much Better Chance. The methods are rather different. John Bannon uses one of those Rank of Poker Hands cards for those who may not be as up to snuff with Poker as they think they are. What is also interesting to note is in the endnotes, Mr. Bannon does offer the idea that if you are none too sure of your spectator, you CAN use E********.
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mlippo Inner circle Trieste (Italy) 1227 Posts |
Seriously, although I've never considered him a legend, I do admit he's done a lot to put on print so much magic.
Not only that: he's an excellent writer, one of the best, and his style is informal, catchy and infuses enthusiasm in the reader. I also think the the best stuff his published belongs to others, but still, we all have to thank him because otherwise that material would've gone lost or described badly. He's got recognition for what he did for magic. That's why it's beyond me why he decided to ruin everything with his behaviour and I'll spare everyone the adjectives that come to mind. Mark |
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