Just saw Penguin's ad for No Joke by Rick Lax. Looks exactly like Richard Sanders' ACE. Since they both admit that the effect is really NFW and there's is just a presentation variation, then I guess you can sell whatever you want as long as you don't claim it as original. But which came first? I don't think this is fair to R.S. if his was first. What do you think?

Dennis

NFW has been out a lot longer than ACE (to my knowledge) I bought NFW many years ago and only saw ACE released a couple years ago. Penguin has sold a couple variations of NFW by a couple other performers before and I think you receive them all if you buy from them. A lot of what Rick Lax is doing for Penguin seems to be just adding new presentations to old effects (and I guess that is their justification) Penguin Monte 2.0 is another good example. Just giving new life to old inventory IMO.

For sure, NFW has been out longer. What I was referring to is that ACE and No Joke are exactly the same.

thx, Dennis

Yea, they pretty much are. I see where you were going now. I had NFW years ago and never used it, bought ACE a couple years back and have got a lot of great reactions. The written instruction for NFW were slim but ACE had a bunch of different handlings. I guess I didn't see that exact one. I will have to re-watch it but it wouldnt surprise me if they were the same with one word changed.

Hey Dennis,

Would have preferred that you PM me with this, instead of implied that I made an unfounded claim or originality.

NFW came first. RS's Ace is the same gimmick with a different handling. (So if you're going to charge anyone with misplaced claims of originality, yes, please not me. Penguin acquired Elmwood magic, and along with it, the rights and ownership to NFW, the original trick/gimmick/effect. In the ad copy and demo video, I make clear that this is my presentation of the classic NFW gimmick.

Hope that clears things up.

-Rick

Rick, I did not think you made an unfounded claim, and you did present it as your presentation of NFW. I just didn't see a difference from ACE. However, I stand corrected in that I should PM the creator with concerns. Did not mean to throw you under the bus. In the demo, you have a very original presentation along with a very similar one to ACE. Since you have the rights, then it's all good. My apologies.

Dennis

I've always loved NFW, but have never purchased it, as the dealer a couple hrs from me has never carried it, to my knowledge. I also really like Rick's handling on No Joke. However, I just watched a few vids on Youtube of Ace by Richard Sanders and went back and watched the Trailer for NO Joke and really don't see any difference. Same gimmicked cards, just routined a 'little' different. Not really sure how Penguin justifies 'repackaging & renaming' this just to sell something supposedly different. And if NFW came out first, I'm not sure how RS justified using the same gimmicked cards & just changing routing/handling a little, and calling it Ace! Just saying.... This is what kinda turned me off magic several yrs ago. Renaming & repackaging something, that's already been around for possibly yrs. I'v been away from performing magic for 15 yrs, and JUST starting to get back practicing a few things. In my opinion only, there is NO better 4 Ace Trick ever created, than Dai Vernon's Twisting The Aces. 4 cards only; no gimmicks, just pure sleight of hand and entertainment. You end CLEAN! I really hope no one tries to 'rename & repackage' this Classic and sell under a different name, just to make more money. In my over 40 yrs of playing with Magic, this has always been my Favorite card trick. Oh, Jazz Aces is probably my 2nd favorite. No gimmicks, just clean handling and MAGIC! While I realize seeming miracles can be accomplished with 'gimmicks', I'm not really a gimmick guy. I really like to try and find ways to eliminate gimmicks if possible. That's just me

Hi Smitty - Ace and No Joke are both very different handlings and presentations from the original NFW. I agree that whenever you can do an effect with no gaffs that has a similar result as one with gaffs, then it's always a "plus". John Bannon has a Twisted Sister like version that uses aces with no gimmick and it's awesome. But you might want to reconsider getting NFW. It really is one of the best - if not the best - packet tricks. I have ACE, and the gimmick is set up a little different from NFW, so you can't do the exact original NFW routine with it in the same gig (need to change something). I don't have No Joke, so I don't know if you can do NFW with it's setup. This type of trick - which ever one you would have - lends itself to personalising and creating fun presentations.

Dennis

This is slightly off topic but I wanted to say I was all set to purchase the No Joke handling as I am not good at reverse engineering performance videos and I really like this presentation. But then I logged into my Penguin account and checked my downloaded videos and noticed with great joy that my prior NFW purchase, made quite some time ago, has been upgraded for free to include the newer No Joke presentation. So it looks like when the product was upgraded older users were grandfathered in. Yay, Penguin!!!

Les

I do not know the history at all about what was first, but I can tell you how these effects affected me:

Back in 2004 I became a magician, seems to be like yesterday, but a lot has changed since then. The first ever international lecture I saw in my magic career was the one by Richard Sanders. Being a newbie and seeing wonderful stuff, I bought everything he had. Included in his presentation was his wonderful DVD called Supercards. On this DVD was the effect TEN, where 4 Jokers changed into the four TEN. The cards came with the DVD as a bonus. I loved the effect and used it until the cards wore out. Richard has given this effect new life with his release of ACE, now seemingly changing Jokers to Aces. (I did not buy it, but that is what I expected).

When I started being Card-Shark (that was in 2006), I loved the effect and cleanliness so much that I thought about how there could be another, stronger and meaningful presentation to it. That is when I came up with Coloring Butterflies, where black and white cartoonish catterpillars turn into colorful butterflies. (Certainly I asked Richard for permission)
This effect then turned into one of my bestselling effects ever: Metamorphosis! Antique cards, antique prints of caterpillars turning into vintage butterfly images, leaving a vintage butterfly sticking to the spectator's hand.

Without Richard Sanders (as I did not know NFW back then), this wonderful effect would never have seen the light! The handling of TEN / ACE / No Joke / Metamorphosis is all much more streamlined than NFW. How you want to present the cards is up to your own liking.

Ethically speaking, is this allowed? To put a new presentation angel and release work released by someone else?

It's not but if the creator doesn't jump out no one cares.

@ChadGill
Rick Lax says PM acquired Elmwood Magic thus giving them the rights to the effect, so its completely allowed.

That's a good question. It seems to happen whether or not its allowed.