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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts 
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Yes, but are they then not more surprised by the achieving?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts
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It is not a question of how much they were surprised, but whether the surprise might be part of the method, or an excuse for why the method was not discovered.
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Stellan Special user Sweden 580 Posts
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Quote:
On Jul 21, 2017, Pop Haydn wrote: A surprise stuns the mind for a moment and creates a spot in time where other information is blocked and can therefore be used to cover things. It does not matter if it is a verbal surprise like a joke or if it is a visual. The mind is momentarily absorbed by the surprise or flooded by it. Most magicians use this as misdirection. Surprise can also be used to create interest, surprising as opposite to boring. Well played surprises will make the spectators stay alert and drawn into the performance. A change of direction can act as a surprise. So can a character trait slipping through making things more interesting, the "trickster" is by definition a persona with surprises and will keep the audience alert. The advanced magician uses surprises in this way as one of the tools to play and create a strong rapport with an audience. I like Pop think it is important to see the difference between surprise and magic. Of course you can be surprised by a magic effect, but a surprise is not impossible and it is not magic. And magic is impossible but need not to be surprising.
"There is no reality, only perception."
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts
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Magic is often surprising, but it is important the spectator does not feel that he has been "taken" by surprise...
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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It seems to me a dilemma is a form of "paralysis" because one is faced with no way out or there is no escape if you will. Astonishment is not quite the same thing as a surprise; it is more like a state freezing or feeling of falling. I once saw something that I actually thought was impossible and it made me feel that way. I think good magic can be scary, breath taking but still amusing.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts
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"I don't believe in ghosts, but they scare me."
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts
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Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts
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The most laughter I ever induced by performing magic was with a straight-up presentation of Coin in Bottle. I was told that a Muslim woman in my ESL class (circa 2002) laughed walking all the home with her friend.
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
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thatmichaelguy New user 67 Posts
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Perhaps my perspective on this is altered by the fact that I can't watch magic from the point of view of an outsider, but I am never particularly amazed when a magician announces (or implies through gesture or procedure) what he is about to do and then does it. I think it's because there seems to be no risk in it. Sure he's indicated that he will do something impossible, but I rarely feel as if there's a chance for failure. I know that he has a method to achieve what he stated he would achieve even if I don't necessarily know what the method is. So, I'm rarely impressed when it happens. He said he would do something and he did it. I find myself awestruck far more often when my expectations are crafted, guided, and used against me.
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 19, 2018, thatmichaelguy wrote: If you can't watch magic from the point of view of the spectator, you will never understand the craft. That is a primary skill. Doesn't the feeling that your expectations are "crafted, guided, and used against me" make you suspect manipulation and deceit rather than "the impossible?" The most powerful magic would be that in which the spectator makes the challenge: "You're a magician, make this one dollar bill into a twenty!" I think that the strongest magic is straightforward and challenge-directed. The more apparent "deception" used in the presentation, the less powerful the final experience. Would it be stronger if the magician took a bottle and a coin under the table and then surprisingly came up with the coin in the bottle? I don't think so. Look at the grown people in this video. You can see their minds collapsing. You can watch the argument for the impossible go through their faces. That is what makes the magic. Not surprise. |
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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts
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Regarding:
Quote:
If you can't watch magic from the point of view of the spectator, you will never understand the craft. That is a primary skill. From Devious Standards by Jamy Ian Swiss Quote:
In the words of the philosopher Edith Stein: "Empathy...is the experience of foreign consciousness in general.... This is how man grasps the psychic life of his fellow man." Reading this today, seemed apropos.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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thatmichaelguy New user 67 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 20, 2018, Pop Haydn wrote: I really see the inability to watch magic as an outsider and the inability to watch magic from the perspective of a spectator to be separate things. And I agree with you, being able to see through a spectator's eyes is critical. What I mean is that when I watch magic I know that the magician has a method to achieve whatever he has announced he will achieve. I think most audience members are aware of this as well. So when the effect is accomplished he is simply actualizing my expectation. He said the coin would go in the bottle, and the coin went in the bottle. That doesn't eliminate the awe or mystery of witnessing the impossible. It also doesn't necessarily expand upon it. I also don't mean that the using my expectations against me to mean having a "gotcha" moment or producing a moment that is pure surprise devoid of the mystery of witnessing the impossible. As a small example using very straightforward magic, imagine two scenarios: 1. The magician holds up a sponge ball and says, "I will now make this ball disappear." Then he does. 2. A magician places a sponge ball in his hand. He gestures for the spectator to hold out her hand so that he can place the ball in it. When he opens his hand to do so, the ball is gone. Both are instances of the impossible and both have value. But in the first, he simply fulfilled expectations. He said the ball would disappear and it did. In the second, he used the spectator's expectations against her. She expected there to be a ball in his hand and there wasn't. You get the impossible plus a little extra. This can be extrapolated to many more complex effects, but the idea remains the same. When a magician announces (or implies) that he will do something impossible, there's no reason not to believe him. It doesn't mitigate the impact of the effect necessarily, but I think it's often worth finding ways to give the audience a little more. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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More and more I am drawn to consider "audience expectations" over forcing them to find astonishment in what the performer finds exciting,
and looking at "providing enjoyment" over "entertain me." If people expect magic to occur, they will find it in simple demon station of the impossible. If they expect puzzles or skill demonstrations, then it is unlikely they will find magic in even your most elaborate efforts. I am the first to admit that often I have focused on the "must be magic" memory to the point it may not be enjoyable. Both joy and magic must come from within the observer, and can be no greater than the performer's own connection with both (opinion) So yes, Michael, if you think that adding "a little more" is important, then it is and no one else's opinion is relevant. ... you offer, "I really see the inability to watch magic as an outsider and the inability to watch magic from the perspective of a spectator to be separate things" I feel there is third consideration -- the ability to role-play in your mind how an effect will appear to a spectator. This is separate from how they will process the input or react to the surprise/mystery/astonishment. What will the observer be seeing at any moment? What might distract their focus? Are you actions too fast or too slow? Is a hand movement or prop justified or congruent with the flow of events? Many factors in "from the spectator's perspective" to evaluate before one gets to "where is the magic?" Now I would at theta the first statement of any observer should be, "I really enjoyed that."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Posted: Jul 22, 2017 01:34 am 
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