I know there are recent threads on this very topic, but I thought I'd post a link to another magic site I just discovered. There are two very thoughtful articles on the question of Christianity and mentalism. The author is Ian Carpenter from the UK.

http://www.online-visions.com/other/0305ian.html

http://www.online-visions.com/other/0306ian.html

Interesting stuff!

Yes it is. Do notice how they are talking about "readings" and how they can help people.

I seem to recall pointing out those readings are at the core of this debate.

There it is, yet again.....

Guess we should condemn all those ministers for having personal talks with people to help them as well.

Hi Mark,

From our past dialogue on this subject, it appears that the following would summarize, in your view, what should and should not be allowed for the Christian:

Given the following:
Let X = Fake magicians who do not claim to have real magic powers
Let Y = Fake magicians who do readings and claim to have real magic powers

Even though both X and Y exist in the world, magic is still OK for Christians

Given the following:
Let A = Fake mentalists who do not claim to have real psychic powers
Let B = Fake mentalists who do readings and claim to have real psychic powers

Since both A and B exist in the world, all mentalism is to be shunned and prohibited for Christians.

Would you agree with this summary?

Jim

Jim,

You Missed

Z = Fake Magicians who do readings and do not claim to have real magic powers

C = Fake Mentalists who do readings and do not claim to have real magic powers

Hi CTR,

Thanks for pointing that out. I do implicity include them as part of X and A, respectively. In other words, "A = Fake magicians who (do or do not do readings and) do not claim to have real magic powers." And "X = Fake mentalist who (do or do not do readings and) do not claim to have real psychic powers."

The reason for explicitly stating "readings" for Y and B is that the "readings" combined with claiming to have real powers seem to be a big factor in Mr. Tripp's exclusion of mentalism for the Christian. I'm curious to see if Mr. Tripp will make the same exclusion of magic for Christians.

What exactly is a "fake" magician?

"Fake magician" refers back to an earlier discussion between Mark Tripp and me. In his discussions about the differences between mentalism (bad for Christians" according to Mark Tripp) and magic (good for Christians, according to Mark Tripp), he referred to mentalists as "fake psychics" because they don't really have psychic power. So, in order to be consistent when discussing the alleged differences between the two in this context, I refer to magicians as "fake magicians."

I don't intend to offend, and I reserve such a description only for this debate.

Thanks for giving me opportunity to clarify my meaning and intention.

Jim,

Thanks. I was just trying to completely understand the discussion.

I think it might be interesting to discuss just where mentalism began. Was it part of a performing magician's act (such as Robert Houdin's blindfold act with his son) or a separate entity?

Richard

Of course Jim will put it into this context, it makes his case better. It is also called a straw man and why I ignore him.

ALL magicians are fake magicians. ALL psychics are fake psychics. The difference is the former group accepts that, as does the audience. The latter wishes to obscure that.

Were this not so, people wouldn't say "Do not use a disclaimer, no one wants to watch a fake psychic". Now that is NOT my quote, it is Lee Erle's. So lets try and keep it honest.

Fake magicians don't do readings for money, claiming it helps people. Fake psychics do, and their own books (such as Mind, Myth and Magic) teach the techniques how.

Making a red silk turn green, or floating a little silver ball is in NO way changing the belief system of the audience. We accept it is a trick. The same can not be said of the fake psychic.

The simple truth is we, as openly fake magicians, do tricks, only God can do miracles. THAT is made clear by EVERY legitimate Christian fake magician I know. The same is not true for the fake psychic.

Finally, it is not I who say being a fake psychic is wrong, the Bible does. This is a christian forum and as such we come from a bible base.

So, as always, wiggle on the hook all you please, but hooked you are.

Mark Tripp

Mark Tripp writes:This appears to me to be special pleading. You seem to ignore the fact that there are fake magicians who DO NOT accept that all magicians are fake. You also seem to ignore the fact that there are fake psychics who DO NOT obscure that all psychics are fake. I have yet to see you address this apparent incongruity and special pleading in your reasoning. By your reasoning, the existence of fake magicians who claim to be real are of no consequence to Christians, whereas the existence of fake psychics who claim to be real disallows psychic entertainment for Christians. That puts you on the hooks of a dilemma from where I'm sitting. Please explain how in your view that is not the case.

Mark Tripp writes:But some DO use disclaimers, and they are quite successful. Likewise, some magicians DO claim to have real powers, and they are quite successful, too. Your (and Mr. Earle's) blanket claims seem to have been proven false.

Mark Tripp writes: But some do.

Mark Tripp writes:But some do not.

Mark Tripp writes:Hence, the importance of the disclaimer. And with the disclaimer, I see no difference between magic and mentalism. What am I missing?

Mark Tripp writes:Maybe not all fake psychics make that clear, but some do.

Mark Tripp writes:As a believer in the inerrancy and infallibility of God's Word, that's exactly why I'm here and what I expect in this forum. Please show me where the Bible prohibits psychic entertainment and that will settle the issue for me. I've asked you this before. If you could give me the references, I would be satisfied.

Mark Tripp writes:From what I've read of everything you've written on this subject, it is you who are on the hook and guilty of applying a double standard just so you can have your magic cake and eat it, too. Please show me how I'm wrong about this.

I would suggest that if one were to use the Bible to support the prohibition of "Psychic" Entertainment, then we might as well conclude that performing magi have no business doing "magic" at Church, given the rather clear prohbition that exists about shunning magic etc.

I too would like to read the Biblical prohibition concerning the Osterlund Perfected Center Tear, or any CT for that matter, Cassidy's Chronologue, or any mentalist effect.

On the contrary one can think of several Biblical applications for the use of the CT for example, if one were looking to teach a gospel principle.

Disclaimers? Earle says no. But consider the context of that statement. Was he, Earle speaking about performing in front of a Church group? No.

Cassidy uses disclaimers, check out his DVD and his writings on the subject.

Richard Ostrerlund, if my memory serves, on his DVDs also uses a disclaimer.

<<<Disclaimers? Earle says no. But consider the context of that statement. Was he, Earle speaking about performing in front of a Church group? No>>>

Oh, so its ok to lie about your powers if it is NOT a church group?

You guys are really too funny for words. Denial is not a river in Egypt.

I am also not going to do your homework for you. It wouldn't matter what I say, you will justify your choices and hold to them if I quoted you chapter and verse.

You know "Moses and all the profits" and all that... its in Matthew....

Mark Tripp

I understand that those who want to do as they please will assault this yet again. I am only doing this as I think others, without those agendas, might be reading this and looking for more understanding of the real issue.

Jesus is NOT a relative issue. The real reason we as Christians are attacked all over the world, and just look at the assault on the new Pope, is because we believe Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. That is really the key issue here. If Jesus is dead in the tomb, then Christianity is an interesting philosophy. However if it is philosophy, there are better ones. But, if Jesus is NOT in that tomb, then what we think or feel is NOT important. What HE wants and feels is. It doesn't change, as people want to live their life THEIR way, but still claim to be a Christian. I have made this point before, the same people who want you to believe mentalism is ok for Christians, pushed their relative concepts there too.

Lets not get distracted by fatuous debate over someone clearly doing “tricks” (the red silk turned green, the silver ball floats), and someone, who when the show is over, still wants you to believe they have real powers. Let us also remember there are sins of omission. Letting people believe what you KNOW is not the truth, falls into this.

Now, lets really define sin here. Like adolescent children, people seem to be looking for how far they can go in the back seat before they cross the line of sin. I will tell you the very though of looking for the line, so you can walk right up to it, is the path to Hell. It is sinful to “look for the loophole” or “what can I get away with”.

More to the core issue, Sin is that which separates you from the Living Christ. Anything that gets between you and salvation is a sin. Is swimming a sin? It can be, it depends on what you should be doing rather than swimming at that time.

Lets deal with readings first. There is no question readings are divination and the Bible in numerous places condemns the practice. A simple search will turn up a great many. Anyone who says that readings of any kind are ok is simply not in line with the Bible.

The act gets tricky. Members of FCM, make it VERY clear that they are doing tricks, only God can do miracles. I believe this needs to be a very important part of every Christian magicians program.

However, we also need to discern the difference between mental magic and mentalism. Examples of mental magic would be “Popsy Pegs” where a person selects one of four colors while the performers back is turned, then the selected color's matching peg flies off a stand. Again, how you present it is key, but clearly most will find this a cleaver trick rather than mind reading. My own marketed effect, where a card is selected, signed, and returned to the card box; then another set of red and blue back cards are laid out on the table, the card box placed on one of the cards and after a series of moves the cards are turned over to find they are all blank except the one the card box is on, that one is the selected card; is another example of mental magic. Clearly there is a process of getting the card from the deck/box to the table, and some kind of math to make it work.

I do not see a problem with mental magic, provided we make clear we are doing tricks.

Mentalism, or mind reading, is not the same thing. Here you want the people to believe you are NOT doing tricks, but have powers (real or implied) that you do not. When the show is over you want them to STILL believe you have powers (real or implied) that you do not.

The problem is, the Bible makes it clear that only God knows our thoughts. It also makes it clear to beware those who would turn you from the truth, and still more about as a man thinkest. IF you think it is ok to let people to believe you have powers you do not have, you are sinning. If what you are doing makes them question their own belief system, all the more so.

Now, you can expect those who want to do as they please to pick away at small bits of subtext, and avoid the core issue, they always do.

What Would Jesus Do?

Would the living Christ, watching what you do, find you a servant who pleases him, or not?

There is the answer for all things.

Do not expect me to address this again, you have free will, so do as you wish. Still, you can never say you were not told.

Yours in Christ, Jesus

Mark Tripp

Mark:

I see in your profile (and your web site) that you are involved in the martial arts. Have you ever encountered criticisms from Christians who believe that Christianity and martial arts should not be linked together?

I ask this because if I understand correctly, religious overtones are frequently taught as part of Eastern martial arts. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I am just wondering if there is some kind of possible connection here (a Christian in martial arts and a Christian in mentalism). Do you actively discourage students from pursuing these Eastern religious overtones by making "disclaimers"?

Terry

Boy am I glad I'm not at all religious so none of these silly rules apply to me.
As Mark Twain's Mysterious Stranger so aptly said "I cannot sin because I do not know what sin is"

There's going to be no winner in this ongoing argument as there is no middle ground between a conservative and a relativist. Actually there's no middle ground between a conservative and any other philosophical outlook either. Hence the major flaw in the ideal of conservatism in todays multicultural world. Tolerence is key for people with different belief structures to get along and tolerence is something concervatives have difficulty with.
you'll not get Mr. Tripp to admit fault nor alter his belief structure in his perfect black and white world view.

Of course you ignore that THIS part of the magic Café is for people who DO believe in the good news.

As to my faults, I admit to them gladly. I am not perfect sir, just forgiven.

Notice, yet again, how those who do not share the belief of this part of the Café, still come here to assault those who do. Yet, if we go elsewhere and post our belief, we can lose our membership over it.

The bible sir, is black and white. The Cross sir, is exactly what it is, as is the empty tomb.

I am not tolerant of sin; sorry that offends you.

Mark Tripp



You assume there is any mystic or eastern religious overtones at a school you have never been to, or seen for yourself. Kinda odd don't you think?

In point of fact my Judo and Jujutsu school has always taught things from a Russian Wrestling point of view and we have NONE of the things that a Christian would find offinsive.

More to the point, I know that everything I do in there is for the glory of Jesus.

But please, attack me if you wish, it avoids the issue now doesn't it?

Mark:

I'm not sure why my questions caused you to respond in what I perceive to be a negative way.

My first paragraph simply asked if you ever encountered questions about the relationship of martial arts and Christianity. This is the same question I get in regard to magic and Christianity.

My second paragraph stated what I understand to be "frequently" taught in martial arts. I did not "assume" that your school does this. I asked to be corrected if my belief about "religious overtones" being frequently taught in martial arts classes is incorrect. I don't understand why you feel I assumed anything about your school. If I assumed anything, it was that you could comment on that belief because of what I expect to be your expertise in that area.

Knowing how people respond to mentalism (thinking that there may be a real power behind it), I wondered how you respond to those who may believe there is a connection between Eastern mysticism/religious overtones and your martial arts teaching.

My third question had to do with how you handle these "religious overtones" to martial arts (which again is my understanding). If some believe that there is a link to Eastern mysticism (for example, "ying and yang" concepts) and the martial arts, do you, as a Christian, give any disclaimer about some of these beliefs/religious overtones since some might buy into these other beliefs based on other martial arts teaching?

I really fail to see that I made any kind of attack on you (as you have stated I made) in my questions.

Contrary to what you stated, I wasn't attempting to avoid any issue. If you read any of my posts on this subject of mentalism and Christianity (or mentalism/psychic entertainment in general), I believe you'll see that we are, for the most part, in agreement (I think I just state it a bit differently)! I simply thought that there was a connection here somewhere, and I was interested to see how you handle it.

Maybe no one else sees any connection between these two topics, but in my thinking, I seem to see one. I guess we'll see if anyone else chimes in.

Terry

Hi Terry,

Do you believe, as Mark Tripp claims, that mentalism is a sin prohibited by scripture and has no place among Christians or in the church?

Jim

How exactly do you train to fight, for the glory of Jesus?