I am part of a discussion in the "Good News" form of The Magic Café that is dealing with the use of Bizarre Magic to communicate the message of the Christian Gospel. I have stated the following on that thread:

"I would love to hear a bizarre treatment that shares the Gospel from those who have posted here! Not saying that it can't be done, as I haven't given it any thought, but it seems like it might be a stretch!"

See the following thread for the complete discussion:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......6&19

Another unrelated post talked about the seeming incongruency of the two forms of magical presentation:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......40&0

I think much of the debate centers around the definition of Bizarre Magic (and posssibly the definition of the gospel and Gospel Magic).

So I am interested to hear how those of you who frequent this form feel about the merger of the two and how you might go about presenting an effect with a Christain gospel message.

I'm not really interested in debating whether or not it is possible (although it may be impossible to pull that off, as many love a good debate!), I would just like to:

1) read your thoughts on the topic, and 2) read your idea for an effect (the effect and a short version of the story that would go along with it). I also would like to think that the effect will really be strong (emotional, captivating, whatever is important to Bizarre Magicians) and not just something thrown together to "prove" to me that it can be done.

A debate may only deal with theory, but an effect will show how it may be able to be done.

Just so I am not misunderstood, I am not starting this post because I feel that Bizarre or storytelling magic is offensive to God. That would be akin to saying that all apples are rotten because I just think they are. I am simply interested in getting a feel from those of you who have an obvious interest in it and I want to see how you would handle the subject.

Terry

I remembered seeing this a while back and actually found it!

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......6&13

Quite a powerful, emotional presentation and he takes the turn of applying it to his personal experience. Very creative!

Of course this is one of those routines you might get silence instead of applause, but that's ok too

Not to sound condescending or anything, but I don't think you really understand the true meaning of "bizarre" magic(k).
It's not all skulls and blood, voodoo dolls and such, but it's roots are in the mystics, priests, and shamans of the ages, and while it frequently uses candles, incense, ancient tomes, and incantations, these are things the church also often uses (especially the Catholic Church).
I guess what I'm saying is, your question is kind of recursively redundant:

Essentially, Gospel magic is a subset of Bizarre magic.

That's bound to ruffle a feather or two, but that's how it is.
One might prefer to say it's an outgrowth or spin-off, but I prefer my original wording to be perfectly honest.
Therefore, the bottom line answer would be, "You Betcha !"

For me bizarre and gospel is the same as well as different...
they are same for the category of story telling, making the magic more emotional,much more focus on the message and presentation...
the difference is the topic or the subject...

and I think that the problem in the term bizarre magick is the labeling... bizarre magick branches into many different types... and gospel is more focus on god's word...

terry you may want to check this website regarding mixing bizarre and gospel...

because we disobeyed he wept by brother kotah
http://www.dragonskull.co.uk/extra_lecture16.htm

raindrops keep fallin on my head by de nomolos ( I really love this one)
http://www.dragonskull.co.uk/extra_lecture26.htm

Chtulhlu loves you, regardless of how you spell his name and what graven image you use. Just food for the gods anyway.

Well, I think it would serve them to see it that way, being that the whole point is the message they are trying to convey.

Heh heh heh

Gospel Magic:

"Fear of God is the beginning of knowledge."

Bizarre Magick:

"Knowledge is the beginning of fear."

Yours,

Paul

Beautiful DRwilson.......

and , to answer the question...you can do whatever the hEll you want...just don't harm a single fellow being...

I dunno - it seems to me that the lack of fear of God was the begininng of knowledge.
I'm referring to Eve's little fruit tasting party at the base of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil).
I often look at that as the metaphor for genus homo (homo sapiens being the modern species) for becoming cognizant/sapient, self-ware, and having a moral sense, as opposed to the animals.
This is/was the general view of the Gnostics.

That's bound to ruffle a feather or two, but that's how it is.
One might prefer to say it's an outgrowth or spin-off, but I prefer my original wording to be perfectly honest.
Therefore, the bottom line answer would be, "You Betcha !"


As a believer in the Gospel, it doesn't offend me Mystician. I do mostly paranormal effects in all my adult dealings and use lots of storytelling. When cornered (like last night asking me to repeat personal future telling events using Q n A), I break down and use the Richard Osterlind type answers. I'm an entertainer and have no special powers etc etc......

PS: The Bible certainly is a paranormal book:)

My nickel with a penny added.

I am a bit of an oxy moron I guess.

I am a christian, but yet perform bizarre magic, Leaving them to there own mind on as wether I am real or not.

Something I will not do is fake a power to show others to God. That seems a bit sacreligious to me.
But if you were to say you are an entertainer then I suppose that is fine.
I under stand some of you don't believe in God in no way am I trying to make a flame war here I am just stating my views.

Saying you have power from God and perform tricks. . . That to me is crossing the line. There is no need for that if you are a man of God, Just like in the bible with the prophet and false prophet of baal. Fire rained from the heavens through God. Not a trick, a trick could be a false prophet or a prophet of satan.
That is my view on it. How ever you can go what ever root you choose. There is just a line I try not to cross, and saying I have powers from God watch this. That crosses my moral boundries as a Christian.

*covers head*

Your friend,
~Mayo

Mayo, I sent ya a PM .. and .. oxymoron .. um.. is one word
Otherwise, you're saying your a moron ...and that oxygen has something to do with it, I guess. And we all know you're no moron.

LMAO! I am a moron... Let me cover myself...

I am a vampire you see... And when there is too much oxygen in my lunch, then I become a bit air headed, like that of a moron

Darn, being a magician rock! You learn to cover stuff .. Oxymoron. Gotcha! I will leave it like that though. People will get a chuckle or two from it

Your friend,
~Mayo

In the world view, the Gospel (the one that tells the world about Jesus and His sacrifice for us) might be a subset of Bizarre magic, but from a Christian point of view, God is not a subset of anything. If you believe in the Christian God (not merely belief, but reliance on), everything was created by and for His purpose. The fact that He gave us free will (how else can one show true love) is a tribute to His unconditional love fairness to let us speak and think any way we want to. However, our freedoms have consequences.

'sides, this "Jesus" they look to was a member of an "occult" group, the Nazarenes...undubtedly the Magicians of their day.

they were considered Vagabonds, heretics, sorcerors...ancestors of the Magic Café...

Wait a minute, I don't get it...why the restriction on harming others? No, I'm not advocating harm to others, merely asking a question.

If the 'rule' is do whatever you want, then why is harming others prohibited? Who set this rule, and why should it be followed?

Leland

Right. its the ol' Wiccan mantra...'tis a paradox, one that I enjoy making use of in my version of "This"

Best,

Baba

Whatever the Gnostics held, the Bible teaches this as the loss of innocence rather than gain of enlightenment; of rebelllion rather than autonomy; of idolatry rather than morality.

In the Christian view, man did possess morality prior to the consumption of the forbidden fruit. God deemed human creation "very good," by virtue of this creation possessing God's communicable attributes: Self-awareness, rationality, etc., collectively referred to as the "Imago Dei," or likeness of God. Man's rebellion did bring experiential knowledge regarding the existence and nature of evil - but while this information did increase man's knowledge, Christianity holds that the cost outweighed the benefit of the acquisition.

The lesson of the Tree is not that knowledge is bad -- the Bible is not anti-intellectual. Rather, the lesson is that obedience to God is better than reliance on self.

Leland

Ultimate reliance on SELF is verily the highest of obedience to any "god" man's mind could conjour up...

in "Eden" wo/man listened , obeyed the ONE, the Absolute...upon "eating the fruit," now choices are born, ego has arisen, and the cycle of pleasure/pain becomes the binder of wo/man...

Self awareness is the realization of the "God" in you...but look to the skies for your milk and honey if ye must...verily all Paths lead one once and again to the Self, the abode of the Absolute...