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kj3 New user Ireland 22 Posts |
Hey everyone!!!
It would really be great to know everyone's thoughts on performing other magicians routines. How do you's feel about performing in the "real world" with others material? How many effects would you's perform that are solely your own? Just a few healthy questions to see what everyone else thinks... Thanks - kev
"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star"
- Nietzsche |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
After trying and learning from every routine I could learn, I kept what works for me and from that made my own routines. Whether just the presentation approach or the entire thing from scratch.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
Nearly every "original" idea today (in magic) is a variation of it's predecessor. The personality and the order of effects will breath fresh air into otherwise lifeless magic tricks.
POOF!
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
I do a couple of others'routines virtually exactly as they are published. But for the most part, I do my own variations/combinations and presentations.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Marshall Thornside Inner circle chicago 2016 Posts |
I NEVER do my own routines.
I copy other magicians routines exactly. word for word, glance for glance, gesture to gesture. Like a copy cat.
you will remember my name
World's Youngest Illusionista 7th greatest pianist in the world Go Red For Women and Stroke Ambassador www.mai-ling.net |
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Father Photius Grammar Host El Paso, TX (Formerly Amarillo) 17161 Posts |
I start out by learning even the slightest gestures of a routine of another magician. I work it til I know it in my sleep, then I begin to play with it. I've played with some for years before doing them. I eventually make the routine my own before performing. I found that while I can copy cat well, I never feel real comfortable doing someone else's routine verbatum. I guess I feel like I'm doing a cheap impersonation. I started out copying Mark Wilson in every detail from smile, to gestures, timing, voice inflection. Uncle Harry finally convinced me to stop that and make it my own. (And he should know, at one point in his life he pretty well stole all his routines from others).
It was with that advise that I found my real personal enjoyment in magic, the playing with it til it was mine. Oh you will see a line or two of the original, or possibly a gesture or two that could still be considered "copied" but on the whole the routine becomes mine. I've performed the routine from the people I originally copied and not had them recognize the routine.
"Now here's the man with the 25 cent hands, that two bit magician..."
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
If the trick is in print, and the reason you want to do it is because you have discovered it on your own (and not seen another magician present it) then it is perfectly fine to perform that trick as is, if you like, or vary it to your taste.
Brad |
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Paul Sherman Inner circle Arlington, VA 1511 Posts |
If the trick is in print, and you've purchased the source material, why does it matter whether you want to do it because you discovered it on your own or if you saw someone else do it? As long as it suits your personality and you perform it well, what difference does it make?
"The finished card expert considers nothing too trivial that in any way contributes to his success..." Erdnase
some youtube videos |
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WalterZ New user 83 Posts |
My personal goal is to have every effect I perform be original to me. So far, I'd say about half of what I do is my own. I never feel truely comfortable doing other people's material.
~WalterZ~
Themystifier.com |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Paul,
Because too many magicians use other performer's acts as a smorgasboard for choosing their own material. If I, as a performer, invest hours buying, researching, and honing a routine from a book and YOU come along, see the product of my vision and labor, and decide to take it for yourself, you are taking something from ME. There is more than enough material out there that we don't need to do tricks because we saw other people be succesful with them. Magic is supposed to be unique - by definition. Why take that away from someone? Sam the Bellhop was been available for years. Bill Malone saw a diamond in the rough and made it a signature piece. It took him all over the world. Then he does it on TV and every magician and their brother starts apeing him. The trick was there all along to do, but no one did. Why? Because they lacked Bill's vision and talent for recognizing a great trick. People profited from Bill's vision. What did he get in return? Copyists. (Of course, he then realized that it was better to tip it in video and maybe try to get something back). So, they see Bill, and like what they see. What to they do? Instead of asking why this is good, or what of their own can they turn into a signature piece, they go out, buy the trick (some of them of course just watched the video thy made of WGM over and over) and according to the theory that "its ok to do this as long as its in print" they did nothing wrong. Well, I'm sure Bill's career did not suffer, but at one time, he was THE bellhop guy. Don Alan wrote about the importance of being THE GUY who does "insert something unique here." I can't see how using another performer (not lecturer, not dealer) to choose your tricks helps anyone. |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Interesting question... why would I want to do someone else's routine?????
Back when I was putting together my cards-and-doves act around 1970, I studied every guy I could find who did this type of act. The model back then (used by about a million other guys) was Channing Pollock, but somehow it never occurred to me to copy him -- I wanted to make it my own and do better. Besides, his onstage persona would have never fit me. I got most of my split fans material from Ganson, but added bits from other sources and made up a few things, especially how to open the fans to get a three-quarter circle instead of the half-circles (or less) described in the books. The bird appearances and vanishes came from several published sources along with a few things I modified or created. I did use one of Mr. Pollock's effects, a repeating silk appearance, which I found in a book, but I went into it differently than he did. Also, all my silks were white; I couldn't see a guy in white tie and tails using red, green, and yellow ones -- I found it incongrous. What I changed most, as I did the act over and over, was my persona: how I communicated with the audience via facial expressions, gestures, music (I used live music and provided a detailed cue sheet indicating when to slow down, speed up, stop, starrt again, and so forth), and, especially, my timing. For me, the fun was in creating my own act; copying someone else's routine just didn't do a thing for me. I felt that if I wanted to use someone else's material verbatim, I could have become an actor and worked from play scripts.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
Some routines fit into what I do and are just so good that any major changes aren't necessary.
I may add something or leave something out and will modify the patter. Then there are those that are more my own and are composed of sleights that I've learned. I'm not sure how many are all mine. |
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kj3 New user Ireland 22 Posts |
Completely agree with ya, georgefl38. I used to perform everyone's elses routines for years but ever since I read Derren Brown's "Absolute Magic", I somehow feel really guilty performing others material. After reading that book I only make up my own material. I would ideas from others routines but I would only use these as inspiration.
Of course theres nothing at all wrong with performing others effects, I just feel, personally really guilty. It pushes me to think more creatively, and gives me more satisfaction as a performer and as a person. Just my thoughts on this subject...
"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star"
- Nietzsche |
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Marshall Thornside Inner circle chicago 2016 Posts |
I do it to annoy all of you.
you will remember my name
World's Youngest Illusionista 7th greatest pianist in the world Go Red For Women and Stroke Ambassador www.mai-ling.net |
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KyletheGreat Special user Georgia 560 Posts |
I cannot stand to do others routines. Sometimes I just sit for an hour or longer and ponder about/stare at a prop in order to figure out how it can be incorporated and what a good routine would be to use it with. That is why most of my routines are a combination of many tricks: like my coloring book routine, my dream bag routine (chosen card is found as a giant silk and then silks are turned into umbrella.), my square circle (rocky raccoon) routine, and many others. They all involve several tricks in one effect. Of all my routines, the ones I am most proud of are my coloring book routine, and my dream bag routine. The coloring book routine seemed to be well liked by several members of this forum who pm'd me about it.
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Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Truthteller,
You glossed over Paul's qualifier: "If the trick is in print, and you've purchased the source material..." If you bought the book, it's not theft. Granted, if you want your version to be tailored and not a clone, you will tweak the routine to your style. Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Seems to me there are three issues being discussed here:
1) Performing material, not your own, exactly as the creator performs it. 2) Performing material, not your own, but adapting it to your performing persona. 3) Performing material that you yourself have created. My opinion: 1) Boring, silly, disrespectful, uncreative--go back to being a lip-syncher. 2) What most end up doing; done well and thoughtfully, no disgrace. 3) Only a rare few can perform and create all their own work as well. My hats off to them! Jack Shalom
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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chrisrkline Special user Little Rock 965 Posts |
Obviously if you are going to go far in magic you have to end up doing your own stuff.
Ironically, I think it takes much more talent to totally mimic someone's great routine then it does to just do the bare outlines of a routine and make the rest "yours." And there is no guarentee that yours will be any good at all. Creativity does not insure quality. In fact, I also think that the worst stuff I have seen are those who pick up some routine, that is nothing more than a demo they have seen, a packet trick with a basic, unfinished routine with it, or some instant download, and then fail to even memorize that very well. I don't think the problems are that everyone is doing Ammar's version of Triumph, but that they are doing Ammar's version badly. Since their audience has never seen either Ammar or Vernon, they would do better to do Ammar's perfectly, then to tinker with something they don't understand or appreciate. I do some routines exactly as written (or with few minor changes.) Whit Haydn's Comedy Ring routine is one. Others I adopt to my own style after playing with them for a long time, and they have my own feel and many of my own words, but the outline is the same (Gazzo's cups.)
Chris
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Patrick Differ Inner circle 1540 Posts |
What's mine is yours
What's yours is mine. No such thing? C'mon...! With as much emphasis placed on advice towards originality and "being yourself" as we've seen and read, I doubt this advice is really working. Opportunity is knocking, but have we been listening? I've ALWAYS liked what Whit Haydn said in his publication. I get it like...FIRST...YOU learn what works and has worked, the established work. Learn that first. Learn it to perfection. Learn its strong points and then learn its nuances. THEN Once you've learned the finest points of the subtlest nuances...venture forth with original applications in your own character...perhaps after discovering your character's new and utile subtlties... That really rang true with me. It reminds me of education. Learn what has already been learned FIRST. Learn it to perfection. THEN go forth with novel applications. Saves time.
Will you walk into my parlour? said the Spider to the Fly,
Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy; The way into my parlour is up a winding stair, And I've a many curious things to show when you are there. Oh no, no, said the little Fly, to ask me is in vain, For who goes up your winding stair -can ne'er come down again. |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-06-28 23:56, Patrick Differ wrote: This can work but if the student doesn't put themselves into the magic and the routine. It is just another copy. Putting yourself into the routine is what we do when we perform it 200 times for different audiences. Tricks and effects will change over time when being performed. I don't think an effect can really be called part of a magicians performance material until it becomes second nature to them. I have changed and made different every routine I do. The inspiration may come from published works or something else but the routine I end up with is almost always very different than the one I started with.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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