I'm getting doves soon from Dakota Rose and I wasn't sure what I would need exactly to start off. What I mean is dove bags, pockets, harnesses, etc. Also what videos would I want? I was looking at the Tony Clark Trilogy and Gen Grant's dove video but I'm not sure what would be better for a beginner.

Tony clarks videos are great to start out for sure...I would also recommend Dan Sperry's dove video as well as Andy Amyx's they offer pretty much everything you need to know..with those videos you will have a good understanding of taking care of doves as well as the basics as well as some advanced dove magic...As far as starting out with them you will need a cages obviously, a mixed bird seed, grit, water and feed dishes, vitamins, a mite and lice spray just to make sure they don't have any parasites.

AS far as bags etc go, it just depends on what effects you are doing, and as mentioned by Dan Sperry and others in previous posts...it is not recommended to start out with invisible dove steals because they can injure or kill the bird if not done correctly because there is a lot you need to know before you start them. But as far as the types of harnesses and bags I personally like Andy Amyx's bags and holders.. I have tried many different types and its just my personal preference. hope this helps some...and be sure to do all of your homework on the care of doves before you get them because taking care of them is top priority, not to mention dove magic like other magic requires a lot of time and practice, but one difference being you can kill your doves in you do it incorrectly.

take care,
Tim Kutch

Magician 336, you've asked this same question in other topics but it seems you are putting the cart before the horse. Before purchasing doves, you should already have the videos and training information to raise and care for them.

In a previous post, you said you already have the harnesses, pockets and bags so I'm not sure what you are asking for here, but if you haven't watched Tony Clark, Andy Amyx,Gen Grant or Dan Sperry's videos or read books like the Encyclopedia of Dove magic, you are are not ready to start working with doves. Doves take a lot of patience and work. As Tim mentioned above, be sure you do all your homework before getting the birds. You said you were 13 which means you go to school and you need to be sure you have enough time to care for the doves properly. Initially, you must spend hours working with them. Then you must constantly clean the cages. There's a lot more involved than just buying a few doves and putting them in a act.

I'm not trying to discourage you from doing this type of magic but I've seen too many magicians start off without knowing everything that was involved.

Magician 336 as Dave said, you are putting the cart before the horse. As a dove worker myself before I started out many years ago I did my research on dove magic and I also have seen some magicians use doves in their show. I bought a few videos and taught myself through these tapes. But I actually started out using some mechanical props first like the dove pan and balloon to dove just to get a feel for working with doves. Then I moved on to more technical dove productions which I will not mention in this post but you could PM me on them. Keep in mine you are working with live animals and they can be very unpredictable. Also I would pick up a book on dove care, remember these will become your friends and pets treat them with respect. Some of the videos I recommend are General Grant, Tony Clark, Kenndrick "ICE" McDonald just to name a few, also we are not trying to discourage you but help out with you incentive to do dove magic.

Abra

Thank you for the advice. I'm getting the Tony Clark Trilogy and the Unmasks book. I should have included this. I also was wondering what kind of suite I would need such as a tux, dinner jacket, etc.?

The type of suit depends on what type of act you are going to do and what you feel comfortable in. Just because you are working with doves, doesn't mean you need to wear tails. Since you are purchasing Tony's behind the seams, you'll see what is required or suggested for a suit.

Watch these vids over and over again to completely understand what you are getting into. You might also want to purchase the Encyclopedia of dove magic, Gen Grants "How to make a living stealing" Andy Amyx's doves 101 and Ice McDonalds, "I dove you truly" before buying your doves. These should give you a well rounded perspective on what's required and an introduction into how to continue in the art of dove magic.

Here's a link to another topic in the Café that is discussing what type of suit to wear.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......3&12

Regards the suit or clothing worn for producing doves....

I've seen a stripper produce a live dove ... and to this day I'm still not sure where she hid it! Some ideas but... well, never mind. I'm sure someone's imaginative to think up some possibilities.

Personally if I were just starting out I would purchase Greg Frewins DVD's . I find they are the loaded with info from start to finish. his DVD seems to have all the info.

Johnnie, we could and have, gone on and on about which videos or books are better but at $150, I would hold off on Greg's DVDs. That's a lot of money to spend if you haven't really decided to get into Dove magic or change your mind. Tony Clark, Andy Amyx Gen Grant etc are all reasonably priced for the beginner. Once the commitment is made, then I'd go with Greg's.

I have watched two Tony Clark videos:Tony Clark unmasks and Tony Clark productions. Is there any other technique on how to train return doves. I have heard from other magicians to put one curtain in front of you, and two to both sides of you, toss the dove to the front curtain and the dove will come back to your hand. Another technique I have heard of is a flash-light technique. I don't really know how that technique works. Anybody have experience in training doves and could help me? Thanks.

Amazinjess
The key to success in training your doves to return is patience. The curtain idea is useful but you might want to check out Tony Clark's idea's in regard to training your birds in this manner. It should be stressed that this is not a "weekend" you will spend but many, many hours starting out slow and then progressing to the point the doves will fly back every time. Keep in mind, your doves have to "know you and feel comfortable" with you. A doves only defense is to fly away. You have to teach them that you are the safest place for them and that will entice them to return to you instead of the lady's head in the 3rd row. LOL Take your time, learn all you can and you will be rewarded many times over. I wish you great success in your endeavor.
Tony

Amazingjess, if you watched Tony's video, then you know how to train the dove to return. You don't have to use curtains though. You can train them at the end of a hallway where they have no where to go. I several of mine without a curtain at all. As Tony said, it just takes patience and time. I've never heard the term Flashlight technique but I believe what they are saying is that a light shining towards you and into the eyes of the bird will cause it to turn around. I have a spotlight set up in my basement to represent a stage atmosphere.

Personally, I think too much time is spent by everyone lately trying to make a dove return. The effect is nice but it is being overdone in my opinion. Go through many of the posts in this forum and you'll see every newbie to dove magic trying to learn the fly back. It might be better to work on technique and grace in other productions than to spend a lot of time training for the fly back. Another draw back is that not every bird will return. Some never learn it and it's a lot of time wasted if they don't.

The first time you step on stage to do a dove act, you should use no more than 2 doves... maybe one as the opener, and one as the closer. If you try to start with a 5, 6, 8 bird act, you will be overwhelmed, nervous, and the birds will be the ones to suffer. Perform with 2 doves for at least a year... see if you like it. Then get more. It's hard enough to perform by yourself, imagine performing with 6 other living things, all with a mind of their own.

Also, do not start with invisible harnesses. Dove bags are a lot easier to handle and are easier to learn with.

But in all honesty, birds are NOT getting any easier to travel with. If you plan on putting together a successful bird act, you will then be booked all over the world, and be stressed out at every airport for the rest of your life... (Maybe that's a bit extreme, but you know what I'm saying)

Thank you for your advice I appreciate your comments.

What would you suggest in terms of harnesses, Tony Clark or the General Grant harness? I don't know which one would be easier and cleaner to work with to start off with. I am a teen magician too. Thanks.

First of all, Dave, I love your new picture. Grandkids???

Magician 336, the most important thing to remember is that your doves are living things. I have seen different performers, I am sure without meaning to, appear to treat their doves cruelly on stage. I have seen feathers fly during an invisible harness appearance, or the whipping around of a load or a cruel twisting of a bag.

It doesn't matter whether you use pockets, bags, boxes or whatever, make sure that on stage (and please, day to day) you treat them as living beings. Keep in mind the well being of the bird while you perform.

As an animal at home, as already mentioned, look after them with due concern. On stage, remember that they are alive and not a just a prop. Dakota Rose presents a wonderful story of rebirth in his performance. It is obvious that he regards his doves as more than just mere props and this, I am sure, is one of the reasons he has been so successful in magic competitions.

Bottom line, as a beginner, whatever path you take, make sure that the audience can see by your actions that the birds are more than just a prop. Let them see wonderful productions by a performer that is talented and caring, and you will have a winning act too.

All the best,

Rob

Thanks Rob. Yes those are my granddaughters. Lilly is 2 years old and Gretchen is 2 months old.

Amazingjess, concerning which is the best harness or bag, there are quite a few topics in this forum discussing this but the bottom line is "whatever works for you is the best". I personally use a lot of Gen Grants harnesses. They work for me very well. I don't like Tony's but I know magicians that are very pleased with them. As a beginner, you might want to invest in several different harnesses. There are many out there. Some use clips, others use snaps or velcro and others use a combination.

Thanks for your advice.

Dove acts are beautiful and will get you noticed as a magician. On the down side Eric is right about traveling with them either in or out of the US. If I were just starting magic with the state of airport security as it is I would find another kind of magic to specialize in. The dove act has gotten me noticed, and given me the chance to pursue magic as a career. Now though I really don't do the act without a direct request. I have found that now the doors are open I can do other types of material and still work regularly.

Most of your famous magicians all started out with the pretty dove act. Jeff McBride, Vito Lupo, Mark Kalin, David Copperfield, and so on. The funny thing is that they left them behind and never looked back. I think that Lance, Joseph, and Dimmare are the last standing soldiers of that art. There is something to be learned from that.

I would deter anyone who has not already started working with doves to choose another style of magic. All of your comedy magicians like Dave Williamson, Jeff Hobson, and even the late Don Allen were all serious classical magicians. Once they mastered the art they went with what paid the bills and that was comedy. Audiences will soon forget the invisible slight ( it's invisible ) but long remember the funny gag, or routine. Not saying that everyone is cut out for comedy but that's what audiences seem to remember the most. DC can make a jet appear on stage but it's the Slow Motion Duck Bucket routine that they honestly remember. Great thing about comedy is that there are very little props, unless your ( Todd Charles ) and rarely any animals to travel with.

Just a suggestion on how strong other kinds of magic can be without the birds.

Puck

I dye my doves different colors with food coloring and it comes out ok..Does anyone have a better technique on coloring doves??