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Michael Rubinstein
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I usually don't watch magic DVD's, but when Roth told me to take a look at Dan's Cylinder and Coins Routine, I had to see for myself. I can tell you, I didn't stop at the one routine, but watched the whole DVD. Dan's routines look very magical, and he is very personable. You are drawn into his performances because he seems to break that rigid wall between performer and spectator - it feels like he is a friend doing magic with you, not for you. The routines themselves are very polished - you can tell that he does these routines in the real world, for real people. I like to watch magic that looks magical, not like a bunch of clever moves that telegraph something happened even though you can't see it. I don't see moves when I watch Dan's routines, I see magic. There were a couple of routines that so fried me, I had to turn to the explanations to see how he did it. I can tell you that his explanations are well articulated and meticulously shot, so you really will be able to do the stuff. Dan's use of the hands are very clever, you will have to see the DVD to know what I mean. What I especially liked was that Dan explains his thoughts behind his reasons for doing what he does, which provides even more insight into the routine over the people who teach just the trick, not the motivation. And Oh yes, the Cylinder and Coins. I have seen Conover, Latta, Gallo, and a few other guys do their routines, and Dan's is right up there with them. He has come up with a few new touches, and I especially liked the he didn't use a wand (I'm not a wand kinda guy), which in my mind modernizes and streamlines the routine. The routine is extremely clean, and you will never see the change of the cork into the coins coming - it is a total surprise, and looks like trick photography. The effect is not explained, but that only means (I hope!)that we can look forward to seeing more of Dan's wonderful brand of magic in future projects.
NEW MANUSCRIPT - TWILIGHT ZONE WILD COIN. All New!! As seen on Penn and Teller Fool Us! PM for details!
Rattle purse 2.0 now available! PM me for details!
New FOUR hour Penguin Live lecture TWO with 23 NEW routines, available for download at: http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/7338
Penguin Live lecture One is THREE hours long, and contains 18 coin effects! Available as a dvd or download from Penguin at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/5960
New York Coin Magic Seminar dvd series available for download at: https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/magic-dvds/new-york-coin-magic-seminar-downloads/
NEW!! At The Table 2 hour lecture download OR DVD containing 11 routines, including THREE never taught before! Download and dvd avaliable at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22380 or http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22833
vinsmagic
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Hi Dan just one question Why didn't you teach your cylinder and coins routine????
It seems to me that all the top coin men have their own version of this effect and yet it is seldom taught.
can you share your thoughts on this? . Also Coin Men walking if I did not mention it before is a must for the serious coin workers................
vinny
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paisa23
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I didn't want to be the first to ask but I too was curious on the Cylinder and coins.
Michael Rubinstein
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The fact that Dan gave us the opportunity to see such a fine routine should be enough - its clear he wants to hold onto it for a while, as is his perrogative. But it certainly makes you want more!
NEW MANUSCRIPT - TWILIGHT ZONE WILD COIN. All New!! As seen on Penn and Teller Fool Us! PM for details!
Rattle purse 2.0 now available! PM me for details!
New FOUR hour Penguin Live lecture TWO with 23 NEW routines, available for download at: http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/7338
Penguin Live lecture One is THREE hours long, and contains 18 coin effects! Available as a dvd or download from Penguin at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/5960
New York Coin Magic Seminar dvd series available for download at: https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/magic-dvds/new-york-coin-magic-seminar-downloads/
NEW!! At The Table 2 hour lecture download OR DVD containing 11 routines, including THREE never taught before! Download and dvd avaliable at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22380 or http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22833
vinsmagic
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Mike this is your reasoning why Dan did not tip his handling of Cand C...
As I stated it seems most coin men do CandC but never teach theirhandling.
What I am trying to say is this , cOIN MEN WALKING IS ATEACHING DVD NOT A PERFORMANCE DVD, so why put it on if dan had said my handling of C/c will be on my next dvd then I would go along with that.
This is not a beef it is just my two cents and I do not want to ditract this from dans excellent dvd.
Dan Great job on your dvd cant wait for the next one to come out
vinny
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Mb217
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Well, that's pretty much Dan and that's good enough for me. Though I'm quite sure that Dan would've addressed it again here as it was asked by Vinny, even more directly. Got a feeling he still might. Smile
*Check out my latest: Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Not much new under the sun I hear but under the moon, well who knows, that just might be a horse of a different color." -Mb Smile
Michael Rubinstein
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Guys, I just gave my opinion, which is what this forum is about. Dan's routine is a bonus...he didn't use it as a selling point then not teach it, he just showed it. Without it, the DVD stll stands up on its own (I count 12 other items!). I personally don't watch many DVD's as I

1. don't have a heck of a lot of time, and 2. I try not to be influenced too much by the works of others (although I do like to learn new moves to improve my own work) and 3. I sell my DVD's because I think other coin magicians will benefit from what I teach. Its up to you to buy them or not. Now I think we should get back to the subject at hand, which was talking about Dan's DVD (which as I said was pretty darn good, and thought that my opinion might be helpful to others who were trying to glean info about the DVD).
NEW MANUSCRIPT - TWILIGHT ZONE WILD COIN. All New!! As seen on Penn and Teller Fool Us! PM for details!
Rattle purse 2.0 now available! PM me for details!
New FOUR hour Penguin Live lecture TWO with 23 NEW routines, available for download at: http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/7338
Penguin Live lecture One is THREE hours long, and contains 18 coin effects! Available as a dvd or download from Penguin at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/5960
New York Coin Magic Seminar dvd series available for download at: https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/magic-dvds/new-york-coin-magic-seminar-downloads/
NEW!! At The Table 2 hour lecture download OR DVD containing 11 routines, including THREE never taught before! Download and dvd avaliable at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22380 or http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22833
Turk
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I really have no problem with Dan graciously sharing his performance only on the "Cylinder and Coins" effect. If anything, it just whets my appetite to learn the routine. But, that said, I do agree with Vinny that there are not many (if any) magicians that are willing to divulge the handling of this effect. Why is that?


Quote:
On 2005-09-15 19:37, smitty wrote:
GOSH Paisa23, you've got me SO EXCITED now, I won't sleep til next Tuesday when the Dvd arrives. I don't remember ever being so excited about receiving a DVD before. It's NUTS! But, I'm getting those toonies saved up just for practicing.

smitty


Smitty,

Remember that any Toonies that fall on the floor become contaminated and unusable. As a public service, I'll PM you my address and you can send such coins down to me and I'll dispose of them at no additional charge to you.

Mike
Magic is a vanishing Art.

This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
love2laugh
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Does this new DVD have a lot of material for beginner to intermediate coin handlers?

I'm not very experienced with coins so is this DVD a good purchase?
Dan Watkins
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Mike, thank you for your nice comments on my DVD, I take them as very high compliments coming from a coin technician of your caliber.

love2laugh, the material is a mix. All of it will take some practice, some of the routines are a little more advanced, and some are intermediate to easy. I believe everyone from beginner to advanced coin worker can learn very good lessons from this DVD. Many people have expressed to me that they think the teachings are one of the best, if not the best part of the DVD. Those who read my website essays and reviews know the attention to detail I like to provide. With that said, to perform the material, you will need at least a fundamental working ability with coins with the basic palms like Classic Palm, Thumb Palm, and Finger Palm. A couple more advanced items use a back clip that I specifically teach on the DVD because it is more of an advanced sleight. You can substitute other clips like the Tenkai Pinch if you are more comfortable with that.

Regarding the questions several of you asked about the Cylinder routine, as I expressed in my earlier post HERE in this thread, it was simply put in as a Bonus item. The DVD’s focus is on stand up, no table coin magic that often takes place in the spectator’s hands. For me this is the type of coin magic I use the most and I wanted the teaching on this DVD to focus on that material. The Cylinder routine does not meet any of that stated criteria. In fact, if you look at the marketing blurbs for my DVD, it states “nine routines, and three utility sleight/items.” If you count up the routines, you will see that the Cylinder routine is not even included in that “nine routine” count; it is truly an “extra bonus” item.

The material I performed and taught is 2 hours and 8 minutes long. The Cylinder bonus effect was the last thing we filmed, it took 2 min. 30 sec. to bring the total running time to 2 hours and 11 minutes. The first time Bob built the DVD, the data was too large to fit on the DVD, we almost cut the Cylinder routine out. Instead he went back and used a slightly higher compression setting on a few of the explanations, and got the data down to just a hair under 4.7 Gigabytes (the capacity of a DVD).

There is not even 10 seconds left on the DVD to have explained it if I even wanted to.

So the only question is, is there merits for throwing in a bonus performance, or is it better to have not bothered? I think most folks have enjoyed watching the routine. Me personally, I like watching magicians perform, so I don’t mind anyone squeezing on a bonus item as long as it is not “fluff” to just fill out skinny DVD. In my case it was not, the DVD is full even without the extra 2:30 min clip.

Vinny, as to why the guys that “do” the routine do not teach it, that is not entirely true. It has been taught in many places already by some very top names. Ramsay’s original routine can be found in a few places including: Victor Farelli’s monograph, “John Ramsay’s Cylinder and Coins”, Andrew Galloway’s, “The Ramsay Classics”, as well as the recently released Andrew Galloway video/DVDs by International Magic, “The Magic of John Ramsay” wherein Mr. Galloway performs and teaches the routine on video. Other variations have been released most notably in the works of John Carney in his book “Carneycopia” as well as performed and taught on his DVD “Carney on Ramsay”, R. Paul Wilson in “5X5 Scotland” book and then Paul’s newer version put out with Joe Porper is taught in a book along with all the props, Mike Gallo’s DVD and book “The Siamese Coins”, and Lewis Ganson’s “The Art of Close-Up Magic Vol 1.” David Roth also has a version in Expert Coin Magic. I have not seen Jon Townsend’s, but I know he published a version in Apocalypse, I am sure he can provide the reference.

The Galloway version is the closest you can get to the original Ramsay version on video, though you are watching Galloway do the routine, not Ramsay. From seeing the Ramsay footage at the NYC Coin Magic Seminar in PA, Ramsay definitely had a faster performing style than Galloway's presentation.

If you can get to one of the NYC Coin Magic Seminar’s Mike Gallo sells a video that teaches his Cylinder routine (different than the one from the Siamese Coin video).

It would be good to acquire some of the sources that teach the original Ramsay routine so that you have a context to see and understand what was changed and cut out of the routines that are taught by others.

I think John Carney's "Carney on Ramsay" DVD is probably one of the best versions you can see on video and also learn the routine. His is also a more streamlined approach than original, a characteristic I also strove for.

I have seen other versions of Tim Conover’s, Bob Kohler’s, and Geoff Latta’s as well. I am told that Tim Conover plans on writing a treatise on the routine someday. Kohler told me that he thinks Tim is the current day master of the routine. I know Tim is the guy who taught the routine to guys like Mike Gallo and Bob Kohler and Eric DeCamps. All of them have since modified the routines to their own liking.

In effort to end this lengthy post, the routine is out there if you want to learn it. It is not an easy one, just learning the mechanics isn’t enough. This is a routine you really need to practice, choreograph and get smooth with. If you just try to do the moves alone, it will not be deceptive. I personally have more hours of practice in this one routine alone than any other routine in my repertoire. Some people consider it to be an exercise to see if they can get away with holding several coins in their hands while boldly telling your audience they have in fact vanished. It’s a gutsy routine.

As I wrote above, the routine is definitely taught by many if you want to learn it, the others that choose not to teach their particular handling I think is because the routine winds up being a very personal handling. Many of the people that I have talked to that perform the routine, say that it is never finished… it is always a work in progress. There are so many different ways to attack the same puzzle. It’s really fun to see different people’s solutions for the exact same goal.

I can tell those who are interested some of my reasoning behind my particular handling of it on the DVD:

1. I felt that the original routine was a bit on the long side (especially the reproductions). I wanted to make it a faster paced routine that did not drag on for the audience. This was one of my motivations for going to three coins instead of four – you cut away one full vanish and production phase. I also eliminated all the feints except for one. (I believe most modern performances of the routine follow suit here in eliminating the feints).

2. I wanted to eliminate the wand (there are pros and cons to this) – you loose some of the protection the wand provides, as well as the beautiful wand spins – I do like wand spins Smile

3. Because I eliminated the wand and the protection it provides, I wanted the vanishes to be as convincing and deceptive as I could possibly make them, while not loosing the sound attributes of being able to clang solid silver coins together.

4. The reveal of the coins in the cylinder is the true climax of the routine, so I wanted to end it as fast as I could immediately after this climax so momentum is not lost.

5. I don’t particularly like the immediate reproduction of all the coins at once, so trying to achieve my goal in #4, I wanted a rapid fire one at a time coin production that hits really fast with an immediate show of the empty cylinder. This phase takes place in just seconds, I think it looks more impressive than just making all the coins come back all at once.

I do have a couple other versions that don’t meet the above criteria, but the one I put on the DVD is my current favorite. I will tell you that my vanish sequence was highly influenced by the vanish sequence I teach in my “outsDANding” routine. Those who are interested may want to revisit that sequence (it’s “Phase Two” in the explanations.) Truthfully, that exact sequence can be used verbatim for a Cylinder routine – and I have done so before.

In closing, I hope that my routine inspires those that see it to work on it. Those that work on it usually come up with their own solutions, their own creations, their own methods and their own version of the routine. This process is much more rewarding than just trying to do someone else’s version of the routine. I know it has been for me.

Sorry for such a lengthy post, I hope it provides some answers and insights.

Dan
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Turk
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Dan,

Thanks for the "lengthy" post.

I really appreciated the bibliography information on the "Cylinder and Coins" effect.

I also very much appreciated your sharing of your rationale for performing the "Cylinder and Coins" the way you do. Its very interesting (and rewarding) learning the insights of another person and the factors that influenced such person to proceed one way versus another while he puts together HIS version of an effect or routine. It is this type of information that is golden--for those that will take the time to analyse what has been offered. A person might not always agree with another person's thinking, but, understanding his "how and why" is always an invaluable learning experience.

Thanks again for all the above info.

Mike
Magic is a vanishing Art.

This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
vinsmagic
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Dan thanks your for that lenghtly information , and I also thank the Turk He said it much better than me ..
Doc your input and and opinion is very important to me and I respect what you have to say.......
the godfather
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Dan Watkins
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Turk,

You are definately right that people will not always agree with another's thinking. I know that my approach above is not right or wrong, its just what I was thinking when I put that version together. I know some people will think that the routine is not impressive enough with just 3 coins for example. I think magicians know that routines become more difficult with more coins, but I am not sure laypeople do. If you can vanish 3 coins deceptively, is the 4th coin that much more impressive? I would argue no. But this is definately an aesthetic call. Some routines feel right with 4 coins, some with 3. I don't think everyone would agree with my elimination of a coin.

I also know that a lot of people that do the routine love the wand. This was probably the hardest choice for me. I really like the aesthetics that the wand provides, and it is a big part of the original routine. I do have versions that use the wand. But I wanted to see how well I could do the trick without it. I think I did okay. Bob Kohler told me that mine was the first routine without a wand that he actually liked, that he typically hates the routine without the wand.

So yea, there are definately a lot of different considerations and modifications that can be done with this plot... As long as you can identify the changes that you do and why you made them.
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love2laugh
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Thank you Dan for all this wonderful information.

I will purchase your DVD immediately. You seem to be a very nice guy who always helps out others here on the Café. Not only am I looking forward to learning some of these routines but I'm also looking forward to watching you perform. It sounds like a great DVD and if the explanations are similar to the excellent information on your website, coinvanish.com, I will be very happy!

Thanks again,
L2L
Werner G. Seitz
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Dan, I really have no intention to interfere re what has been mentioned concerning your *Cylinder&Coins* routine.
I nevertheless however have some comments.

That routine of yours is PURE magic and a joy to watch, it does though -as you mentioned yourself- fall outside the category of your excellent *Coin Man Walking* category.

Those knowing a bit about coinmagic and the various solutions makling *miracles* possible -which your demo of that routine no doubt is- should easily discover the possible solutions used at certain stages of that routine.

Solutions that GIVE the result they gave to the onlookers, but at the same time solutions that are not just *easily* to be done by pure sleight of hand.

At some stages the hands are totally empty and the *how* a coin is loaded, or even vanished, should be not that difficult to find a solution by those being into coins.

The same goes- and here a BIG compliment re the PERFECT and so natural execution- for the *get rid of the more or less standard gimmick always used in the C&Cs*.

That move is the most natural and casual handling I have ever seen used in connection with that *util* that disposed safely of the gimmick at the end of the routine.

So, you guys out there, insted of asking for explanations, I think it is more rewarding to use your imagination and figure out ways to do that routine in a similar way then Dan did ..and believe me doing it that way gives certain *bounds* not existing in the pure sleight of hand versions.
Dan's version is PURE magic to watch, but has it's price!

Re pure sleight of hand versions Tim Conovers handling still is hard to top in smoothness and elegance of handling, as a magic for magicians version Dans is hard to top..

I think we should be greatfull, we had the oportunity to se Dans handling, as it gives food for thought and somehow it did remind me of Tommy Wonder, re that it's the effect that counts, no matter what methods are used..

Final remark:
Dans routine is a MASTERPIECE of coinmagic -and so an inspiration-, no matter how one looks at it Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
smitty
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Hey Mike: Sorry I didn't respond sooner, but my computer has been out of commission for several days now. I'm REALLY getting fed up with Microsoft and all the WINDOWS problems they love to send us. I'm about ready to convert completely to Linux, or just go buy a REAL computer - a MAC. Anyway, in regard to your 'concern' about my 'toonies', lol; at this point I haven't dropped any, so they are 'still useable'.

If I do have the misfortune of dropping some, I will IMMEDIATELY inform you, Smile

I 'have' received the DVD now, and 'have' watched it twice, but haven't had time to try anything yet, so coins are still nicely/safely in pocket.


BEST.....smitty
KirkG
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I picked up the DVD this weekend. I have only had time to watch the performances so far. I can understand the comments made re the spectators. This must have been very tough on Dan. It is hard to perform with that little feed back.

That being said, there is a lot of great stuff on this DVD. I already had purchased the book, CoinVanish II so I had a leg up on the methods, but it is great to see the moves done live. I appreciate the good work of Bob Kohler with the insert shots to clarify what the moves look like to the spectator.

I also enjoyed watching Dan's version of C&C. It was an excellant bonus to include and I thank him.

Kirk
smitty
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Well, as I just mentioned to Mike, I did receive my DVD, several days ago, but my computer has been out of commission for a few days. I think WinXP is a magnet for corruption, trojans and spyware.

LOVE the DVD Dan. Very well produced; great explanations; beautiful routining.

You've definitely got me thinking now. I don't want to 'copy' any of your routines verbatim, but want to take ideas, as I do with Metal Bending.

I'm was quite surprised to be introduced to this new utility item you use, which I've never seen or heard of until Werner made me aware of them. Our Canadian dealer doesn't carry them yet, perhaps because of the cost, I don't know.

I LOVED the Cylinder and Coin routine, which I also had never seen performed before. After watching it a number of times, I think one could certainly come up with their own handling, so I had NO problem with you not sharing your particular handling on this Dan. It is truly a MASTERPIECE, and you performed it 'flawlessly'.

I was happy to be 'fooled badly' when I first saw it; and then, watched it over and over to try and figure out ways of accomplishing each part. I think you got a LOT of our creative juices flowing on this one Dan.

Since I don't have access to purchase this utility item, I will have to bypass those routines for now, or think of other ways to create something 'similar'.

But, just perfecting/mastering the basic Classic Palm and Backclip will keep me busy for awhile. Fortunately, I am a lucky owner of Paul Cummins 'Up In Smoke'.

For anyone on the Café who hasn't purchased Dan's new DVD, and is into Coins, I HIGHLY recommend it. It's always good to have a 'library full of good resources' to draw from.

In closing, THANK YOU Dan for being willing to share all these GEMS with us. I will enjoy this DVD for a long time to come.

Kindest Regards...

smitty
Dan Watkins
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Thanks again for the compliments all.

Quote:
On 2005-09-26 11:26, KirkG wrote:
I can understand the comments made re the spectators. This must have been very tough on Dan. It is hard to perform with that little feed back.


It was difficult. Most of the up close and personal magic really needs the interaction that is almost non-existant in the studio environment. So the performance suffers a bit on an spectator interactive entertainment level. Nevertheless, I think magicians were still able to get a good "demonstration" of the routines and what a friendly fella I am Smile
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paisa23
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Oh don't get me wrong the DVD is great I just was left wanting a little bit with the CC routine but I'm already on my research to learn it . Thank you Dan for bringing this routine to my attention. And the rest of the Gems on your DVD
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