This is problem number 4 in a series. To read problem number 1 and to understand the guidelines for posting, please read this thread:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......tart=0#3

ETHICS PROBLEM #4

Situation: Carl owns an extensive collection of magic books, tapes, and DVDs. His young daughter, noticing the amount of practice time he devotes to his hobby, becomes interested and decides to take up the study of magic herself. Instead of requiring her to obtain her own material or purchasing copies for her himself, Carl allows her free access to any of the material in his library.

Question: Is he acting ethically?

Discuss.

Yes. It's family property. He isn't hurting a thing. He is passing information on to his daughter.

Agreed

I think its ethical for him to share. By the nature of a family whether it is husband and wife or father or daughter they will pool resources. This is natural part of human nature and society would not fare well without this familial collectivism. It is also mentoring in its most pure form. Mentoring is good for magic. It allows students to pull on the prior knowledge of the previous generation and perhaps go to new heights.

Nope, there is NO reason to let your daughter be less ethical than a friend or collegue. The Ethics should not change. If you believe it is OK to share your library with friends, it is OK to share with your daughter. If, however, you are cautious about sharing with friends, the same caution should apply to your daughter.

In fact, greater caution should apply to your daughter. Our example above stated "study of magic" which leads me to believe this is not a passing curiosity. In teaching your daughter about the "ethics" of valueing an author's work you need to take the extra step to give her ownership of her own book(s) IF she is serious. You can and should teach your children about "ethics". Sadly, you can't much teach your friends.

If your ethic does not value the author's work enough to be protective of it and his ability to make a living off it, then your daughter will probably already have learned that from you.

Cheers,

Tom

I don't think anyone has argued here that one's child should be less ethical than a friend. The hypothetical situation involves parents and their daughter, not friends. I'm sure we'd all agree that a parent should teach their children about ethics, but what about the topic at hand? Tom, do you think it's unethical for the parents to let the daughter read/view the material without purchasing her own copies?

But, then again, there are public libraries.

Let's try that same argument and see if it works in general. Consider this HYPOTHETICAL parallel

The President of the United States is reviewing some notes on expected political situations around the world. His daughter, a political science student asks him for and receives the notes and makes suggestions. Any problem there?

All I did was change the nouns, leaving the process intact. If there is something that makes the process "unethical" or at least uncomfortable, we may need to refine our language a bit about information in magic as opposed to information in other fields.

There was a comment about magic texts in public libraries. This too raises some questions. I usually phrase one of the questions as "what distinguishes a magician from a muggle". One of the other questions comes with the notion of "right to know". Ordinarily rights come with responsibilities. What then are the responsibilities?

Yep

Go Carl's daugter! She may become a great conjouress which is cool.

Ask for permission from the authors. This will teach your daughter a good lesson. The magicians who wrote the books will no doubt give permission in the these circumstances and they will know that you are person who can be trusted with a secret If the magician is dead or unknown then I don’t know.

Tommy, that's an interesting approach. On the one hand it does offer a direct extension of permission from the author, and on the other hand it puts the requestor in a situation where they must ask for the permission. That basic transaction and negotiation seems useful to magicdom. It opens up and maintains some contact between the parties who create the parties who wish to utilize secrets.

This falls under chain of ownership. Documents and such can be shared and passed on until they fall apart. If the item in question came with a user agreement, the contract would bind the purchaser.
Making illegal copies of the material would still be a crime.

It's just like if you are going to give your car to your blood relative, you are still going to have to go to the Registration for the sale. Even if you put down 1 dolloar as sale, it's still a sale and thus the ownership is transferred. Unless of course, your kid wants to drive the auto under your name and then you will be responsible for all of it. This is my ethical dilemmas...

But if you live in the same house a husband and wife share all of their worldly goods they wouldn't have separate ownership... What's his is hers ect...it's the same with the daughter. Legally she doesn't own anything. Her parents are responsible for her upkeep. If she screws up and breaks the neighbors picture window Dad is liable. Although she may not see an allowance forever. My car is still in my Dads name. I don't think you can separate who owns what in a family. A minor can't buy a car....can't enter into a legally binding contract. I just don't see the point of separate books while living in the same house. Who really has that kind of space. My stance is in a family it's all joint property.
Peace Beth

I think sometimes we can get silly. Whether you should reveal secrets to the child, or give them access to the books just because they want to know is a different point. If you are mentoring your child (and this is at least not too rare in magic) then who would buy two sets of everything?

It is one thing not to pass the books around the neighborhood, but in the house is different.

Again, that does not mean you should share all or any secrets with family members unless they are going to become magicians--I don't. It also does't mean you should share every secret just because they do want to pursue magic. But this goes for us. If you have a child who is into coin magic, they don't necessarily have to let you know every secret if coins are not your interest. Need to know is a guide.

If you are mentoring someone, don't you think it is a good idea to mentor respect for an author's work which can only be felt through the pride of ownership and having paid the author his due? Is mentoring just teaching somebody some tricks, or is mentoring about passing on philosophies and ethics?

Cheers,

Tom

Personally, if I perform a routine that I receive money for, I will own it. The same goes for my child.

I am just not comfortable throwing the charge of lack of ethics in a situation like this, even if it is a hypothetical.

If my daughter wants to learn some card stuff. She can use my Royal Road to Card Magic.

Think Blackstone Sr told Blackstone Jr to go buy his own stuff?
(Or any of the greats that passed information down.)

I don’t see it as being wrong teaching the daughter. But I do agree, at the same time we should be teaching her that ethics is important in magic. Not everything, but important.

Tom

Tom, I have noticed a marked tendency on your part to argue as if a previous position has been established. This sentence only makes sense if you accept the premise that there is something unethical about lending books. While this question may be settled in YOUR mind, there are many other people who feel that magical books and recordings are property like any other, to be dispensed with as the owner sees fit. The question of what is ethical and what is not is what we are trying to explore here, and begging the question doesn't further the discussion.

I say make the brat buy her own books.
Kids these days are just gimmee, gimmee, gimmee.
Peace,
Parson

BTW, on a more serious note. Am I the only one who has noticed that most ethical questions here(and in other places as well) revolve around the loss of revenue to "creators?"
I have seen "creators" take info that is very, very old, repackage it and sell it as their very own.
It sometimes saddens me that magic for some is only about making money.

BTW: Did anyone here buy Killer Red Caps?