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Gede Nibo Inner circle 2447 Posts |
I am sure this has been dealt with on many a thread. However, Im searching for some fresh, new answers.
So what is the best Cups and Balls dvd? I see Ammar's all over the place, and they seem pretty complete. part one seems a bit too basic from the description, so perhaps ill go with part two... So, thanks ahead, and I'm off to search in the meantime. Baba |
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Chessmann Inner circle 4242 Posts |
There is also a some history of the cups on vol. 1, so if that interestes you, you might want to look into purchasing it.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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Mr. Muggle Special user 999 Posts |
In my opinion..
1) Ammar's Cups and Balls Vol.1 & 2 2) Stevens Magic Cups and Balls Teach in Video w/ Johnny Thompson, Charlie Miller, Johnny Paul, Mike Rogers and Michael Ammar 3) 25 Tricks with the cups and balls. There are other DVDs/VHS that you can get, but they aren't totally dedicated to the cups. With the above video's you will get a lot of information both practical and historical with some duplication among the three. I found all of them to be well worth the cost and review them often. Even though part one of Ammar's set is basic, it is still a good reference to go back and review to determine how your own mechanics and basics are coming along. Volume two has a lot of information with much to offer. I've found information not listed on the Ammar tapes but overall he cover's the cups and balls quite well. Use the search enging for more info, these tapes have been discussed many times on the Café.
"Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it because you're not really looking. You don't really want to know the secret... You want to be fooled." - The Prestige (2006)
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
I have those mentioned by Mr. Muggle and I would disagree about the 25 tricks with cups and balls. I haven't found any value (other than entertainment) in any of those dvd's. Of course, this doesn't bother me because, well, they are so cheap and I am entertained by watching other magicians perform.
I would also suggest other people's routines. Impossibilia is out of print but it has a great routine. Mendoza has a great routine but it's for combo cups. Then there's another routine. I can't remember whose it is. Maybe someone can help me. A characteristic of this routine is tha instead of scooping the ball under the cup he places the cup over the ball and drags it back. He has something called the "Smashing Color Change". None less than Bill Palmer praised it highly. |
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Richard Evans Inner circle 1379 Posts |
The 'smash color change' is in Dennis Loomis's excellent routine. Well worth getting that booklet.
Back to the DVDs, I think both volumes of the Ammar DVDs are definitely worth getting. I agree that the Stevens DVD is also a 'must have'. The Rafael Benatar tape is very good. It's not on DVD, but on the plus side you can pick up the VHS tape quite cheaply. Richard
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
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Gede Nibo Inner circle 2447 Posts |
Thanx Chessman...glad we are still friends...I meant no harm o'er yonder...
anyhow, Ammar it is...I already have my own "routines," though I want to study others... I find that, without wearing sports coats (which DO NOT go with Turbans), its super hard to conceal the whereabouts of the final load(s)...so I find myself doing it on the ground, as per Indian magicians...and Ive even did it on the streets...but too risky I think..but then again, theres something intriguing with the "danger" of the loads disovery...keeps my on the move and on my toes... so where else do you fellas hide the load(s)?? and thanx Muggle, Rikbrooks, and Taliesin for the heads up... ~Baba |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
The best place to hide the loads is in the bag you take the cups from, when you are doing the Indian style cups. That's the traditional way. Also, if you are sitting cross-legged, then you can hide loads elsewhere.
If working on the streets standing up, the pouch or a servante is really recommendable. Regarding the DVD's -- the Ammar DVD's -- both volumes -- are an absolute MUST. Why do I like V 1? Mainly the historical bits with Bob Read. But it also puts a lot of good basic moves together in one spot. I like the Stevens Teach-in DVD, because of the performers on it, especially being able to see Charlie Miller, whom I never got to meet. The 25 tricks with cups and balls DVD is okay. It is certainly cheap enough. Regarding cups and balls in general -- the main thing is to know what to leave out. Even Vernon said that you need to get to the loads fairly quickly, because that's what the cups and balls is all about.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Uli Weigel Inner circle Berlin, Germany 1478 Posts |
Quote:
Regarding cups and balls in general -- the main thing is to know what to leave out. Even Vernon said that you need to get to the loads fairly quickly, because that's what the cups and balls is all about. If you can get your hands on "The Book of John" by John Mendoza, you'll find a very interesting C&B Routine called "Flash Cups", which takes the philosophy of getting to the final load quickly, to the extreme. After exactly 60 seconds the audience stares at three final loads! I have performed it for some time and it's really strong and also fun to do. |
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Magicmaven Inner circle 1235 Posts |
All I have is volume two from Ammar. That is all you need.
Once you master the material on that, and watch vernon do his routine a couple hundred times, you are ready. then you can start to look into specific routines which utilize certain moves such as steal and what not... Good luck! (trust me, all you need is volume 2, like volume 1, it too goes into some history)
rmaxgoodwin.com
https://rmaxgoodwin.com/ |
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Mr. Muggle Special user 999 Posts |
Volume 2 is good I agree, but to only get it and not volume 1 is short changing yourself. There is information on Volume 1 that is not in Volume 2 and it contains some moves that you don't see in most routines. It is a resource that you will have if ever you want to add something different to your own routine later down the road.
Besides that its a set, why buy a half set of an encyclopedia? The money will be well invested and you can find the VHS tapes on eBay for cheap if you can't afford the DVD's. Ammar's book, while different in layout is also a great resource and there are things with in its pages that are not on the DVD's. As far as the 25 tricks with the cups and balls there are a few sequences that are just different on the tape that I like. You also get to see different cups being used and a few different idea's and sequences. For the $9 that its now going for you really cant go wrong, I'm sure you will find at least one thing that sparks some creativity. That was one of the reasons that I liked the Stevens tape (Charlie and the Indian Cups/Johnny Paul and Mike Roger's wand usage); it was devoted to the cups and balls and wasn't full of stock routines/moves that you typically see when watching a routine.
"Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it because you're not really looking. You don't really want to know the secret... You want to be fooled." - The Prestige (2006)
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
Normally I try not to be the voice of dissent, and far be it from me to contradict the likes of Dai Vernon, but hey, here I go.
First, I agree that you should get both Ammar books. There are things in the first that you won't find in the second. Bear in mind that any bit of knowledge that serves you is priceless. So if you find even one gem in the first book then you have come out far ahead. As for 'getting to the final load.' I must insist that the final load is NOT what the cups and balls are all about. They are about (drum roll, please) entertainment. It is oft repeated and perhaps true that people today have a shorter attention span than generations past and that you must get to the final loads lest you bore your spectators. I imagine that's true - if you are a boring entertainer. If you let the cups and balls entertain and you are just the manipulator then perhaps you are right. If you let the trick work itself then you should probably get to those final loads, give your spectators a chuckle and a small surprise to lighten up their evening. If on the other hand, you are an entertainer and you use the cups and balls to weave a tapestry of mystery and delight, then a somewhat longer performance might be in order. I've seen Gazzo stretch out what could have been a 3 minute routine into 15 and not a person left the audience - this was of course outside where it is easy to walk away. Hey, he held my attention and I knew precisely what he was doing as he did it. His performance kept me rivetted. If your routine is, "look, a ball, no it's here, no there! Wait! here's 3, no, 1." Then you had best get to your finale as soon as you can because the rest is entertaining for a minute or so then just boring. As I'm maturing I realize that a magician turns tricks into magic. If he does it well he can take his time about it. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Gazzo's cups and balls routine is about two things. It is about building a crowd, which he does with his lines and bits of business. And the loads.
If he didn't do the lines and bits of business, he couldn't hold the crowd for as long as he does. The worst thing a cups and balls performer who is not an entertainer of Gazzo's caliber can do would be to take every move he knows from his encyclopedic knowledge of the cups and balls, and do them for the audience. Why? Because to the layman, they are all basically alike. The ball can be produced and vanished. It can change places. It can penetrate a cup. It can go up; it can go down. They can assemble under a single cup, then they can disperse to all three of them. After that, all you have left is basically the final loads.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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flimnar Special user Salt Lake 577 Posts |
I am going to agree with the value of getting Ammar's Cups and Balls Volume 1 as well as volume 2. I suspect one of the differences between excellent performers and those who think they are excellent performers is how effective they are at the "basic" moves. I suspect many of us are not as good at these moves as we think we are--Ammar's Volume 1 shows how these moves can look if done well. It is so seductive to move on to new and exciting levels of knowledge, sometimes we can sleight the foundation. For what it's worth, I recommend both volume 1 and 2. Add to that the history pieces included, and it is a no-brainer, in my opinion.
Flimnar
"This one goes to eleven..." Nigel Tufnel
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
I think that once again I have to clarify myself because I may be giving the wrong impression. I don't mean that if you can't go out there and keep your spectator in your pocket for 15 minutes while you have them spellbound watching your cups and balls routine then you aren't good at it.
My routine is, at most, 5 minutes. That's only when the spectators are in a particularly responsive mood. What I chafe at is the thought that you should do a couple of things then BANG! Hit them with the final load. On Revelations 4, in his Explanation of the Ring (if I'm not mistaken), he says that there is a start, middle, and ending of every routine. He said that you have to hit them hard with the start and ending and you can pretty much coast along during the middle. But he did say that there had to be a middle. I think by minimizing that middle your spectator may be left with, "What just happened?" Bill, you mentioned the things that the balls can do, demonstrating that the number of things was fairly limited - and you are right. I'll never forget one of my first college professors in what back then was called Data Processing. "A computer can read a value at a memory location. It can write a value at a memory location. A computer can logically compare two values at two memory locations. It can add two values at two memory locations. It can subtract two values at two memory locations. It can do nothing else. The rest of the things that you see it do are results of the efforts of programmers." There are an awful lot of other things that computers do. I agree, Bill, I believe that you've listed just about everything. Still, you know very well that a trick is more than the total number of physical movements that are possible. It is the presentation of the magician and as long as he can keep the spectators thrilled - he should. |
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sethb Inner circle The Jersey Shore 2719 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-09-25 17:51, rikbrooks wrote: As for 'getting to the final load,' I must insist that the final load is NOT what the cups and balls are all about. They are about (drum roll, please) entertainment. I'll have to side with Rikbrooks on this one. The final loads are a nice finish to a great trick, but they are NOT the trick itself. In my humble opinion, I believe the key to a good Cups & Balls routine is some sort of logical progression: first the balls appear and disappear, then they jump from one cup to another, then they penetrate the cups, and finally assemble under one cup. You don't need to do every C/B move ever invented in order to accomplish this -- keeping it simple and direct is the key. But whatever is done, it needs to be logical and easy to follow. Otherwise, all you have is confusion, not mystery or entertainment. And I've found that if you go slower rather than faster, it becomes even more amazing. The final loads are a great way to end the trick, but they are not whole trick, far from it. SETH
"Watch the Professor!!" -- Al Flosso (1895-1976)
"The better you are, the closer they watch" -- Darwin Ortiz, STRONG MAGIC |
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KirkG Inner circle 1391 Posts |
I think Bill may have been trying to say, that with the performance of most routines of the cups and balls, the final loads is all there is. That is not the way it should be. The final loads are the climax of an otherwise entertaining and mystifying routines chock full of magic! And after all this cool stuff, then Bam! where the heck did they come from.
It seems that magicians, who have the most fear of the loads, have assigned them the starring part of the routine. We all look to see how our peers handle the loads. Because it is so daunting to the us, we overlook and undervalue( and under practice and underdevelop) the rest of the routine. The final loads are the icing on the cake. Sure it is sweet, but it won't make up for bad cake. Kirk |
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
Well, Kirk, I hate to disagree with you on this one - but I would bet a paycheck that Bill said precisely what he intended and that what he intended to say is precisely what he said. A more erudite man is hard to find.
Still, I MOST respectfully disagree with him on this and am right now shuddering and waiting for the lightning to strike because next to Fred Donaldson I have no greater respect for a magician than that for Bill Palmer. There isn't a close second. I have discussed with him wide ranging issues from routining to ethics to drama to stage presence and have never found him to be wrong on issues of magic and entertainment. Yet in this issue I really believe that I disagree with him slightly. There is more than what the ball can do. It is how and when the ball does what it does and how impossible it is that the ball does what it does. Ironically Bill once told me to slow down my cups and balls routine. He said that I was rushing it and not allowing the spectator to experience one of the effects. I suffered the same problem with the rings for a while. It's a result of practicing solo and not presenting enough. Soon the moves become second nature and they just happen. I fixed that by concentrating on the spectator. If I didn't see that look of surprise I pause a moment and smile at him. Usually a look of recognition will dawn and I'll get an even greater response. Then again, my audiences are small, 20-50 and elderly so they don't always get everything right when it happens. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
No, what I am saying is this. Neophyte cups and balls workers generally spend way too much time on the preliminaries. They do three repititions of everything. They do every move on the Ammar DVD. They can leave out 60% of that and have an excellent routine.
And it was no less than Vernon who said that the cups and balls is all about the final loads. Check his conversation with Michael Ammar on Revelations. That's almost an exact quote. The biggest advantage the chop cup has over a three cup routine is that the amount of things you can bore an audience with are limited by the number of props. I've seen some really good three cup routines. I'll go further than that. I've seen the best three cup routines. They never get boring and they do not overstress repitition. Any time you repeat an effect in the cups and balls, there must be a variation. This includes the chop cup. You have to make sure that the audience gets the idea that you are making things easier for them to follow. And you have to think about another thing as well. What is the routine about? Is it about the cups and some mystical property they have? Is it about the balls and some mystical property they have? Is it about you and some mystical property you have? Whatever it is, you need to make it pretty clear at the beginning and stick to it until you get to the end. You can use your premise to lead them down the garden path and then turn on the sprinklers. If you do know a lot of cups and balls moves, and you want to combine them in a way that gives you something resembling a different routine, then perform these moves for someone who hates the cups and balls. Let them tell you the ones they loathe the least. Chances are, when you put your routine together, using those moves and/or phases, you will have a really good routine. But don't spend 5 minutes on the multiplication pass and 3 minutes on the elevator move.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
The routine needs to be entertaining. How does one get there? Watch some entertaining routines for ideas...
Gasso Unsencored or other Gazzo offerings that are available. Charlie Frye DVD Cellini ARt of II with Cellini Cellini Art of I with Sunny Holiday I found all of those entertaining to watch.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Magicmaven Inner circle 1235 Posts |
I think that if you did the tip over load sequence, and then hit them with the final loads, you are short changing the audience. The audience is just starting to understand what the heck is going on, or what is supposed to be going on. I think that a routine MUST build, that is the next thing that happens should be more amazing than the last. That being said, you shouldn't find their card and then pull an airplane out of your pocket. They won't fully appreciate either trick unless there are gradual improvements or amazingness (if that makes any sense at all...?). I think you need to get the audience to the point where they think they are on to you, even if they have no clue, and then hit them with something like final loads. This is all accomplished only after a serries of revelations.
The vernon routine does just that, and that is why it is the foundation for my routine.
rmaxgoodwin.com
https://rmaxgoodwin.com/ |
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