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Roland78
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Hi,
I would like to share with you my experience about memorized deck. Im had never memorized a deck before, and I don't know any mathematical method like the Si Stebbins or similar to remember a card sequence. Tonight I couldn't sleep, I was playing with my deck in my bed, and I wondered if I was able to memorize a whole random sequence of cards in few time. I shuffled it, looked at the cards, and after some minutes I had an idea, I tried it and after less than an hour I had the whole stack of (almost) random 52 cards in mind. Now I can remember them in both order, from 1 to 52 and vice versa,and I can know in some seconds the position number of a card in the deck and the card from a position number, and of course if you name a card I know the previous and next one in the deck in an istant. The cards are really in a random order to the eyes of the spectator, except a few key cards in specific positions, but it's impossible to notice them.
The stack works also if you cut once the deck (but only once).

I already know a couple of nice effects I can do with it, and I would appreciate your suggestions about other effects. The 2 effects are the Michael Close's Invisible Deck, and a simple but strong "u pick a card -> I divine it" effect.

And if you are interested in my memorizing method, let me know, I'll be glad to explain it. I don't do it now because I'm in hurry and the detailed explanation could be long...

Bye

Davide
vinsmagic
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Hi david iam very intrested in your method I do not use memorized deck as of this time


vinny
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
tommy
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"The stack works also if you cut once the deck (but only once)." ?

Cutting one time is the same as cutting 100 times. It will not change the sequence.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
paisa23
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Hmm intresting I'm still in a conundrum to find one that I would like.
abc
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I assume he means cut it once as in not cut it into three or four piles and then replace them in different order. I use something that I ripped of Mega Memory to memorise cards and with some pracrtise you can memorise a full deck in less than 2 minutes after it was shuffled but it is more of a betcha than anything else. Besides everyone knows that I am memorising the cards and they usually think I am joking until I start having them ask me questions. I don't ever really prform it for other than friends because I don't consider it a real trick. Once I know how to word what I do and I can find someone who knows the mega memory system I will try to explain it.
T. Joseph O'Malley
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I'm interested in your methods. I have memorized the Aronson and Tamariz (but now only know the Tamariz).

What I'd like to be able to do someday is memorize "on the fly" if you will ie. learn most or all of a deck as the cards come out. I'd like to be able to do this for magic but also for card games (Gin, for example).

To that end I've been debating buying the Dominic Monahagan book from Lybrary.com, as I'm having no luck finding it used in any bookstores around here.
tjo'
paisa23
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Quote:
On 2005-10-05 12:17, T. Joseph O'Malley wrote:
I'm interested in your methods. I have memorized the Aronson and Tamariz (but now only know the Tamariz).




For someone who has never memorized one which one should I begin with thaqt wouldnt send me running for my Coins instead?
rikbrooks
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I use the method that I've used for years. It's described in "The Memory Book" by Harry Lorraine and Jerry Lucas. The more you use this system the better you become at it. Like sleights, you can lose the ability as well so I practice with cards. I can memorize a deck given about 1-2 seconds a card. So I can memorize an entire deck in, at most, 2 minutes.

The system that I use is the one in the book, unaltered.
Dave Forrest
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To those who are toying with the idea of Mem-deck work:

Look out for my 'Memor-ease' card stack which will be appearing soon. This is the perfect substitute for memorising an entire deck.

The 'Memor-ease' system allows you to know the numerical position of every card in the deck with ease. It allows you to know the value of the top card by looking at the bottom card and vice versa, in other words it's cyclical. The stack appears random, is extremely versatile and there is a ton of other 'strange' applications for the stack including the ability to cut to any four of a kind called for after the deck has been genuinely shuffled. Or, simply find the mate of any chosen card without even seeing what that card is.

The booklet is in production and will be avaiable soon. It contains the most powerful stuff I've ever released and includes my 'Any Card at Any Number' effect that I've been keeping to myself for ages. If you're considering getting into mem-deck work, keep an eye out for 'Memor-ease'.

Dave.
Frank Starsini
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Unbelievable. I'm in the process of memorizing the si stebbins stack.
I'm still using mnemonics so far to get the results.

Mike Close's new CD-Rom E-Book has some great stuff in there.
Like "The Luckiest Card in Las Vegas" (I think it's called).
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic

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abc
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It is just a little memory exercise that I use to fool around with. The mega memory system works where you take numbers and assign logical pictures to them and then attach or PEG other pictures mentally to help you memorize other things like alist of 20 or 30 or 100 items in a remarkably short time with 100% recall ability if you practise it. All I did was I assigned names of people or pictures to the numbers in a deck of cards and then peg these to the already existing list. so lets say the first number on my list is tree (refer here to the course for the reason) and the first card is the King of Hearts. That to me represents the King of lovers which has to be Ron Jeremy for his very large whatever. Then The picture I have would be RJ naked in a tree and the two things are linked together in a picture. When Quizzed later all I have to do is recall the picture. Your brain has an excellent capacity for remembering and recalling pictures.
If anyone is interested PM me and I will try to get you some material to look at and try to get this down. It is really easy but again it takes too long to be used for magic and again their are better ways to do magic with memory decks etc etc.
I don't think this will work for card games since it does not involve counting cards besides there are easier ways to count cards which I can also do because I play card games all the time
The only reason I do this is I can bet a friend I can let him shuffle his cards and then memorize the order in no time (under 2 mninutes).
Magic Sam
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The best on-the-fly memorized stack, or the one I use anyway, is the Stebbins secret, which allows you to stack a brand new deck in Stebbins order in about 25 seconds through four shuffles. It's in Darwin Ortiz' Expert at the Card Table, but he doesn't really expound on the idea. What I do is stack the deck a la Stebbins Secret, then shuffle (overhand) the bottom half onto the top half. Now I spread the cards to show the new top half is really shuffled (bottom is still stacked), then have two people pick a card from the bottom half. Cull the card above theirs to the bottom and peek and you'll know their card, from a shuffled deck. I think it was Steve Youell who wrote about some applications of the Stebbins Secret in his lecture notes. This method is absolutely killer, even for magicians, because you can just control the stacked stack after while showing the rest of the deck thoroughly mixed. Just my opinion.. Smile
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Frank Starsini
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That's why I'm using the Si Stebbins Stack. Getting into it is too easy to pass up and I'm lazy.

Also, Lennart Green demonstrated a face-up "dribble" spread which would very much show the si stebbins stack in what would look like completely random order.

That's enough for me.

If you want to know the si stebbins secret, be fair to Mr. Ortiz and don't ask people to tip it to you.
Just get Darwin's book. It's worth it and it's a great book anyway.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic

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T. Joseph O'Malley
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Quote:
On 2005-10-05 12:21, paisa23 wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-10-05 12:17, T. Joseph O'Malley wrote:
I'm interested in your methods. I have memorized the Aronson and Tamariz (but now only know the Tamariz).




For someone who has never memorized one which one should I begin with thaqt wouldnt send me running for my Coins instead?


Honestly, it doesn't really matter which stack you use/learn, but I'd recommend the Tamariz or Aronson simply because they have both written a good deal on effects with their respective stacks. There's a lot of info on this site with regards to this. My advice is: if you want to create simple miracles and absolutely mystify people, put the work in and go for it. It's not as hard as you think.
tjo'
sgrossberg
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I use memory techniques all the time in my routines and demonstrations. I recommend Dominic O'Brien's memory system for use with cards over Harry Lorayne's system. O'Brien's techniques have provien to give you more speed than Lorayne's system "as to cards." But, the systems are not mutually exclusive and can be used interchangably if speed is not your concern. Bear in mind, these actual systems are merely expansions on prior memory systems used by older cultures and there are other threads at the Café on them. I will be exploring Sal Piacente's system, as well, and would love any input someone might have on Sal's techniques. I notice in 2001, both Dominic and Sal competed in the Memory Sports World Championships with Dominic ultimately memorizing an entire deck in about 41 seconds (which he repeated in the 2005 championships).
Yiannis
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Dominic actually, didn't take part in the 2005 championship.
rikbrooks
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I learned the Lorrayne system years ago and it helped me through grad school. I don't recall if it taught how to memorize cards. I have my own system. I use the Lorrayne system to remember the order and the 'key' for the card is the number 1-52. Each card has a number. The Ace of Clubs is number 1, the two is number two. The ace of hearts is 14 (CHaSeD).

Then I just relate the card number to the order and off I go.
sgrossberg
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Yiannis - You are quite correct. Dominic was the World Memory Champion in 1991, 1993, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1999, 2000 and 2001.
Roland78
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Hi all.
I have read all your posts, and these are my answers to them.

1. Cutting the deck several times. Sorry for my bad explanation, of course if you cut a deck n times it will always mantain his cyclic order. As abc said, I mean you cannot cut it in 3 or more packets and reassemble them in a different way.

2. Be ready, it will be a long post.

3. Ok, let's go.
Many of you have mentioned some memory system to help you memorizing lists of things. I have never read the books you have listed, but some of the methods you have described are similar to the one I know. I used it at school and I think it's an original idea of the italian philosopher Giordano Bruno. It's the method of the rooms.
Ok, this is my memorizing stack rules:
First, you have to assocate the pips to more physical items, easier to remember than abstract symbols. These are the ones I used for my deck:
- clubs = flowers
- diamonds = pictures (in italian "diamonds" is translated "quadri", and "quadri" = "pictures") Of course for you english ppl, the diamonds can actually be true diamonds
- spades = swords
- hearts = red apples (they are similar...)

The main idea is the rooms system. You have to imagine a big house, a palace, or a castle, with many different strange rooms. You have to imagine yourself inside this house: you are visiting it and you are the character of a nice story happening inside it. The elements of the rooms (furniture, peoples, objects) and what happens in the story are all related to the different items you are going to remember (in other words, your cards!).

Ok, so let's begin. Shuffle your deck. Every order is ok, it doesn't really matter the initial order. Now, divide it into blocks of 10 cards, and one of 12. Here's a little helper I used for my memory: it's not necessary, but I think it's really useful and it's the secret of my fast learning. Take out the 4 kings and the queen of hearts; put the 4 kings at the 10°, 20°, 30° and 40° position. Put the queen at the 50° place. Do it and the following instructions having the deck face up on the table, and counting the first face up card as the first one in the list.
Just take a look of your cards, and be sure they are in a "good" random order. For example, with my first shuffle I obtained a tris of aces, and it wasnt good. I separated them. As a good rule, be sure you don't have too many cards of the same color in a group, and don't have more than 2 cards of the same value close to each other (no tris or pokers, in other words).
Now, let's begin our learning curve. Close your eyes and imagine the beginning of your story. You have just arrived at the castle. Now all you have to do is associate every card to something you see or do in the castle: I think an example will be more useful than theory. Let suppose your first 4 cards are:
Jack Clubs, 2 Hearts, Ace of Diamonds, 6 of spades.
Let your fantasy run and think to something you can relate to these elements. I will add some helpers later in the explanation. Imagine real and detailed things. In our example, I'm thinking to a black knight with a big black flower pictured on his chest; he's holding 2 big red apples, one in each hand. He's in front of the main door of the castle, offering the apples to me. I pass behind him, and I see that the door is huge, heavy, red wood, and there's a great diamond engraved on it. I push it open, and I'm in a narrow corridor. On the walls there are 3 swords on my left and 3 on my right shining at the soft light of torches...
If you now close your eyes and try to remember my little story, you will see how easy is remember the main elements of the story (the knight, the apples, the engraved diamond, the swords) and how fast you can reassociate them to their original cards.
So, you only have to imagine your travel in the castle, using the 4 kings as the main steps of your story. I find useful associate different environment to them: the king of clubs is in a dark room full of swords shattered everywhere on the floor, the king of diamonds sit on a huge pile of shining diamonds, and so on...(these are only examples, they work well for me but cannot be effective for u... create your own environments)
Begin memorizing the first part of your travel: from the main door to the first king. Then, imagine yourself changing direction, and taking another corridor, perpendiculare to your first path, and follow it until you reach the second king. Change direction again, and go to the 3rd, and so on.
I also think it's very strong changing level. In my travel, I take two elevators, one goes down to a sort of cellar, one goes up in a dark tower. If you imagine yourself moving in different directions, you will remember more easily your steps.
And here is another tip: imagine associations between an item and the next one. I mean something like this: the king of hearts sit over a big red apple, his fellow friend lean bored against the apple. Both of them are watching a nice looking woman, all dressed in black leathery, who is juggling with 9 swords (this is part of my stack: KH, JH, QS, 9S).
I find useful remembering many details of the scene: the leather dress of the woman, the bored face of the knight, etc... They are not used to directly remember the card, but they relate you to the main items of the scene.

Other various useful tips:
- alternate animated items to still ones
- be the director of the movie you are running in your head: use camera rollings, change your point of view to have dramatic sights of certain areas, do close ups, zooms...
- sometimes, use the very card as an item. I have a big series of 5 of hearts making a dangerous bridge over a dark cave canyon. And the 10 of hearts is a small door in one of my rooms
- the Aces are special, imagine something really special for them
- This is a nice one. Scientific lesson. Your mind can recognize at first sight a group of 1 to 6 items, without counting them. Try to think to it. If you see a group of 5 apples, you know they are 5 without counting. If you see 6 eggs, you know they are 6. The same for 4,3,2,1 items. But if you see 7 items, your brain do (really fast, but it does it!) an addition (4+3, or 5+2, it depends how they are arranged in the group). Almost nobody can recognize at first sight a group of more than 7 elements without actually dividing them in 2 or more groups and adding them. Use this knowledge to place your objects in the rooms of your castle. Place the elements of your 2,3,4,5,6 so you can remember their number at first sight. Simply imaging the items positioned as they related pips on the card (6 apples in 2 rows of 3 are easy to remember, 6 apples shattered on the floor are difficult to remember)
- the 8 has a nice visual shape. Just imagine a big 8 somewhere in your room. I have a couple of nice soft fluffy sofa shaped as eights. Two round wheels one on top of the other make an 8. A guitar has the shape of an eight. A school chalkboard with a very 8 drawn on it. And so on...
- Remember the 9s as matrixes of 3x3
- the 10 is the highest number of each pip. U don't need to remember exactly 10 diamonds. Imagine "many" diamonds, and you know you have a 10, because it's the higest number
- The jacks, queens and king are easy... they are the main characters of your movie, make them act!
- imagine feelings in your movie. A feeling is a nail in your memory. U remember the main events of your life because of the strong feelings you had in those moments. I think that Fear is a strong feeling. Use it to change something in your story so you can go scared from a scene to another one. In my castle, at a certain point, 4 huge dark voodoo flowers rise from the 4 corners of a room, destroying the floor. Everything shake, the ceiling break and a big sword drop and almost kill me. I have to run away, and in the running 2 pictures (my diamonds, remember?) fall down near me.... See what I mean? Is this easier to remember this sequence than a boring pale blue room where everyone is happy and everything is quiet, isn't it?
- let your fantasy run: everything is ok, nobody judges you for your imagination, so don't feel shame if you are imagining a sensual naked girl eating an apple, or strange illogical things. The more you feel them part of your story, the more you will remember them.
- Yes, I have the naked girl at the end of my story Smile
- I don't know if this is different from people minds, but I don't have problems imagining in technicolor. Much much better than black and white. Color your dreams.
- I don't know why, but my movie is mute. I think it's different from person to person. If you have a more musical mind, add music and sound effects to the scenes, I guess they could be helpful.

Ok, now you know everything. With this system I memorized my deck in an hour or less. Memorize the 5 blocks of cards one after the other and repeat them in your head while you travel the castle, without looking at the cards. When you arrive to a new king, repeat in your mind the path from the previous one to this one, and then from the beggining to this point. While you are creating your story, take a look at the cards you have in hand, in the current group you are memorizing. Change their order if you need it. For example, I changed place to some of them to create a more logical sequence, because I had no idea how to put together King of Spades, 9 of Diamonds, 7 of clubs and 7 of spades. I simply imagined the 4 elements in a conceivable way, and moved them in this order KS, 7S, 7C, 9D: "the king of spades is mad, and he's sitted in a room full of swords. He's counting them, and for every sword he counts, he put a flower in another group near the swords. Now he's counting the 7th sword of his crazy collection. Now he's putting down the 7th black flower. I raise my head and I see that on the front wall there's a matrix of 3x3 pictures..." Got it?

When you have your whole story in your mind, go throught it many times, *don't change the items* if you think they are too strange, or you will only confuse yourself! The first idea you had is the good one and it's the only one you will remember! Above all, don't change the first elements of the story if you have already memorized the next ones, or this will ruin everything. Add details if you want (but not confusing ones, do it only if you feel it's helpful). And when you are sure you can go from the beginning to the end, try doing it in reverse. It's not easy and flowless as doing it in normal order, but if you have done good associations, you will do it without effort.

A useful exercise I did today to better my memory and that will be very useful in your tricks: open the deck at random, look at the card you have cut, and tell the next one and the previous one. Do it many times. It will help you going faster forward and backward in your story to the exact moment marked by that card.

4. Position numbers
To remember the position of the cards in the deck, just use your kings and red queen (and your first card) as key numbers. If you are asked about the 37° card, and you know that the king of diamonds is the 40, go back 3 steps and you have the 37. If I ask you what's the position of the 2 of clubs, you remember that it's 4 steps away from the king of hearts, who's 20, and you have 24.
This is just a bit more difficult than memorizing the story, but I kept doing it all day long while driving and now I can remember the position of lot of cards only by their name. I find useful using post-its for the more difficult ones. I added a yellow post-it to the items which's position number I have more difficult to remember. And I wrote their number on the post it with a big black marker. Very visual and good, in my opinion, but don't abuse or you will have too many numbers hanging on your castle's items and you will confuse and mess everything.

Im not sure yet if it will work, because I memorized my deck only yesterday, but I think that you can remember several stacks with this method, and don't forget any of them. Next week I will try with the next one. I will just change the environment, so I will have a big difference with the actual story, and don't risk to confuse myself. My next story will be in a wood, or in a modern palace, or in a north-pole ice palace... As a magician you shouldn't have problems remembering a story, is like remembering the patter for an effect.

5. The end
Ok, I'm sorry if this is a long big boring post, but it has been useful for me to put down the main notes I had in my mind. I will save it and keep it for the future Smile
I hope it is useful for you too, and I'm sorry if some these ideas are not original. Im not the author of the most part of these thecniques, I know it. Just I don't know who the authors are because I learned them by different sources and many memory tricks arrive by my school days.
If you have more memory tips to share, I will be glad to know them, they will improve our memorizing line!

Ok, now I have to go. It's late, and today I forgot to take my memory pills... if I only could remember where I put them!!!

Dave
Yiannis
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That's a very nice way using the room system. I liked your story Smile
scorch
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Dave,

Before you devote a lot of time into working with the random stack that you memorized, you should probably spend the time memorizing one of the more popular stacks that have powerful effects built into them, and a lot of repertoire already figured out. Otherwise you will never be able to do more than a small subset of the effects that are possible with a good memdeck stack.

Usually in discussions of memdeck it comes down to the Aronson or the Tamariz Mnemonica stack. The Tamariz stack has more powerful effects built into it than the Aronson, but the Aronson has been around longer and there are more total routines published for it. Personally I went with the Tamariz stack because you can do 95% of memdeck effects with any memorized stack, and I figured that I wanted to have the most up-to-date stack at my disposal. I'm glad I did.

Memdeck effects are truly stunning, but for a long time were often limited to mentalism, divination, and gambling demonstrations. But in Mnemonica Tamariz pretty much blew the roof off of what you can do with memdeck to include just about any plot in card magic that you would want. I'd definitely recommend getting a a copy of Mnemonica.
Larry Davidson
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Quote:
On 2005-10-05 18:23, scorch wrote:
Dave,

"...you should probably spend the time memorizing one of the more popular stacks that have powerful effects built into them...."


I agree IF those types of effects (gambling, spelling) appeal to you, and they do to most magicians, but they don't to me so I learned Martin Joyal's Six-Hour Memorized Deck solely because I thought it would be easier to learn than other memorized systems I knew of at the time (including Aronson's, and Joyal's did turn out to be much easier for me).
acehigher
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You can get Aronson stact for free from his site.

You can also download deck testers which are really helpful.
Scott Cram
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Roland, you can find an extensive list of where to find memory-related effects, over at Grey Matters, including many card effects that can be done with any memorized deck.

Thanks for sharing your approach, Roland. It's great!
scorch
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Quote:
On 2005-10-05 20:04, Larry Davidson wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-10-05 18:23, scorch wrote:
"...you should probably spend the time memorizing one of the more popular stacks that have powerful effects built into them...."


I agree IF those types of effects (gambling, spelling) appeal to you, and they do to most magicians, but they don't to me so I learned Martin Joyal's Six-Hour Memorized Deck solely because I thought it would be easier to learn than other memorized systems I knew of at the time (including Aronson's, and Joyal's did turn out to be much easier for me).


There are a couple errors in your thinking here. First of all, you don't know for sure that the Joyal stack would have been significantly easier for you, unless you had done the work to memorize both systems and therefore had a basis for comparison. Isn't it a real possibility that memorizing Aronson or Mnemonica might not have been as difficult as you had imagined?

And with the publication of Mnemonica, Juan Tamariz pretty much blew away the old archetypes of what is possible with a memorized deck. It is simply incorrect to say that the Mnemonica stack can only be used for the standard memdeck gambling, spelling, and divination type effects. How would you like to end your routine by doing a few faros and ending up in new deck order? There aren't too many people who wouldn't find that appealing in itself.

Also, using Tamariz' techniques for memorization, it is quite possible to do the memorization work in an afternoon (albeit an afternoon of hard work and total concentration). His claim is that anybody can memorize his stack using his methods in about four hours, which is about what it took me. Given the real possibility of learning Mnemonica in four hours, it is sort of ironic that you opted to memorize a stack called the Six-Hour Memdeck, on the assumption that it would be quicker.

In any case, I still don't think it's a smart trade-off to go with a less powerful stack just to save a little bit on the memorization work. If you're going to commit to memorizing a stack and learning the memdeck routines, why limit your options? Go with the stack that has the most powerful stuff inherent to it.
Dennis Loomis
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Guys, let's clarify something here for people that have not yet memorized a full deck stack. The order or the cards in one thing. The METHOD used to memorize it is something else. I learned the Aronson stack using Simons methods explained in Bound To Please. They are just basic mnemonics, the same as the Lorayne System, and the multitude of mnemonic based systems which came before. It's been used for centuries and can be used to memorize ANY full deck stack, not just Simon's.

I have not used the "revolutionary" Tamariz method (actually a combination of several methods or procedures) and so I can't comment on whether it's faster or not. It may very well be fast. But, you can use Juan's method(s) to memorize the Aronson stack, or any other full deck stack, too.

You can also use brute force memory. This may be harder and take longer, but it absolutely will get you there.

Once you memorize your stack, the method you used no longer matters. You do not continue to do the mnemonice associations, you just KNOW.

The main point is this: before you decide to memorize a stack, the method you're going to use seems to be very important. IT IS NOT. Most magicians will be able to memorize any stack by any method with some regular practice. What IS important is which stack you choose. If you're going to memorize one, think carefully on what you are going to use it for. Larry Davidson did just that. He could have chosen the Aronson stack, but on finding out what routines it can accomplish, he felt that most of them are not his cup of tea. Remember, a great many of Simon's routines can be done with any memorized deck. There are a few which require that the deck be in Simon's order. As Larry says, these are heavy on gambline routines, primarily poker. But there is a nice Bridge Deal built in, and a blackjack routine as well. There are also some special spelling situations built into the deck. I personally like some of these. I routinely do the complete three phase poker deal. I don't normally do the Bridge deal, but when I happen to run across a bridge player in my audience, it's there and ready.

On the other hand, if you do a lot of Faro work, the Tamiriz Stack is probably more your cup of tea. Being able to get a deck into new deck order does make a wonderful effect, and one that you can't do with the Aronson stack.

I do hope that this is useful to you.

If you decide to memorize a deck, I've got some twenty articles I've written for the Smoke and Mirrors Ezine collected on my web site. Come on in and browse, there's no charge for the information. The URL is in my sig file below.

Denny Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
Parson Smith
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I really like Doug Dyment's stack.
It works for me.
Peace,
Parson
Here kitty, kitty,kitty. Smile
+++a posse ad esse+++
Larry Davidson
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Denny gets it.

Quote:
On 2005-10-06 13:16, scorch wrote:

"...(Larry Davidson)...There are a couple errors in your thinking here. First of all, you don't know for sure that the Joyal stack would have been significantly easier for you, unless you had done the work to memorize both systems and therefore had a basis for comparison. Isn't it a real possibility that memorizing Aronson or Mnemonica might not have been as difficult as you had imagined?


Scorch, I did briefly attempt the Aronson stack, and did not find it easy. I thought Joyal's would be easier, I tried it, and I found it very easy. I did not attempt Tamariz's approach because it wasn't published at the time I learned memorized deck work which was years ago when Joyal's work was first published.

Quote:
On 2005-10-06 13:16, scorch wrote:

"...with the publication of Mnemonica, Juan Tamariz pretty much blew away the old archetypes of what is possible with a memorized deck. It is simply incorrect to say that the Mnemonica stack can only be used for the standard memdeck gambling, spelling, and divination type effects...."


Scorch, I created my own effects using Joyal's memorized stack, and none of my effects are gambling, spelling, or typical divination type effects, so I didn't have to wait for anyone else to "blow away any archetypes." To this day I perform only my original effects using a memorized deck. Note that in my original posting I didn't say anything about Memonica one way or the other. If I hadn't learned Joyal's stack years ago and I was just starting out today, of course I'd look into and consider Mneumonica.

Quote:
On 2005-10-06 13:16, scorch wrote:

How would you like to end your routine by doing a few faros and ending up in new deck order? There aren't too many people who wouldn't find that appealing in itself.


I'm one of those people. That idea doesn't appeal to me, nor would any idea that shows a deck in any order after using a memorized deck. Different strokes for different folks.

Quote:
On 2005-10-06 13:16, scorch wrote:

"...Given the real possibility of learning Mnemonica in four hours, it is sort of ironic that you opted to memorize a stack called the Six-Hour Memdeck, on the assumption that it would be quicker...."


Given that you didn't know when I learned memorized deck work, and given that Mnemonica wasn't published at the time, I guess it wasn't me who was making assumptions. Ironic, isn't it? Smile

Larry
Phaedrus
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To anyone who is still on the fence about learning a full memdeck stack, I can offer my experience.

I first became interested in the Aronson stack, because I really liked many of the effects that Michael Close does using that stack (actually, many of those effects can be done with any memorized stack, but since that was the stack he used, I decided to start there). Unfortunately, I was absolutely convinced that memorizing an entire deck of cards was some kind of monumental undertaking, and I kept putting off the work necessary to do it because of how hard I assumed it was.

I had tried many of the memorization techniques taught by Lorayne and others, including the procedure Simon Aronson gives in Bound to Please, but one thing that always bothered me was the notion that the associations that one makes were only temporary; after the stack was learned, the associations were supposed to drop away, and you would just know the card at any number or vice versa. To me, this seemed like a lot of wasted effort if the idea was to just memorize the cards and their numbers, so I came up with my own way of memorizing (or rather, adopted the brute force approach).

I made up a little card with the cards and their numbers, and used it as a prompter. I live in Mexico City, and spend a significant portion of my day on public transportation, so I had a lot of time both before and after work to devote to the memorization procedure. I started by memorizing five cards, and would recite them in order. When I felt comfortable with this (a few minutes), I would refer to my little card and memorize the next card, adding it to my mental list. By running the list in strict order, I was able to memorize the entire deck in about four hours.

Now, when I say memorize, I mean only that I could run through the list and name each card and its number. This, however, is not sufficient to actually perform with the deck, so once I had the "raw" memorization down, I developed a series of exercises to help cement the associations, and allow me to name card from number or number from card. Some examples:

Name cards from 1-52
Name cards from 52-1
Name odd cards forward
Name odd cards backward
Name even cards forward
Name even cards backward
Name cards in pattern: 1, 11, 21, 31, 41, 51, 2, 12, 22, 32, 42, etc.
Give number from card in ascending order A-K in CHSD order
Give number from card in descending order A-2 in CHSD order
Give number of card from new deck order
Give number of all Aces, 2s, 3s, etc. in CHSD order
Give number of card from Si Stebbins cycle

Obviously, there are lots more combinations; the point is that you can do this anytime you have a little "dead time" without even needing a deck or any other reference (provided you have the raw memorization down cold: if you get stuck, you can always run your mental checklist to find the info you need).

Now, I don't believe that this approach is the right one for everybody; this is just what worked for me. The important point is that memorizing a deck is certainly within the abilities of anyone who really wants to learn it; I don't have any special mental powers, so if I can do it, anyone can.

One last note: it's tempting to try to find some kind of system that will allow you to avoid the work of memorizing a deck, but there are some effects that can only be performed with a fully memorized deck, not a cyclical system like Si Stebbins. If you don't believe me, pick up any book by Simon Aronson; every one of them has killer effects that make the effort worthwhile.
Amir
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Stebbins with a shuffled top stock for me.
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