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williamHerrick Regular user Mountain View, CA 140 Posts |
Hi,
I've been interested in card cheating sleights, artifice at the card table, etc., for a long time. When reading threads here about cheating I have read this kind of comment many times: "Of course you better be good at [sleight X, Y, Z], because if you try it in a game and get caught you could have your arms broken, your hands smashed, a bullet put through the head, etc..." I accepted this as reality, but then started thinking, "If I caught someone cheating in a poker game what would I do? Would I say to another player, 'You hold him down while I break his arm!'" I can't see myself ever breaking a guys arm, taking a hammer to his hand a la the movie "Casino", let alone *killing* someone who had cheated me. My question is: in a game played by average people (i.e., not with professional gangsters/drug dealers, etc.) has anybody ever seen, or knows of a reliable witness who has seen, a cheater who was discovered having his arms broken, hands smashed, etc., or was killed. What really happens to cheaters who are caught? Also, a related question: I've read that Vegas casinos, no longer being run by the Mob, don't beat up cheaters anymore but instead call the police. I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge about how many cheats are caught each year in Vegas, how much time they serve, what kind of cheating are they accused of, etc. The bottom line is, I think today the "You'll get your arms broken" thing is a myth -- am I right? William |
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paisa23 Inner circle 7293 Posts |
Quote:
I've read that Vegas casinos, no longer being run by the Mob, don't beat up cheaters anymore but instead call the police I wouldnt trust that. Second I don't know anyone who has had their arms broken. But I do play games and tournament which are to be "Friendly".. Basically its who you are playing with. Is it worth the risk? Some of these card players really take this thing seriously. IMHO... I just wouldnt do it. Money on the table?? Bad news.. I know I didn't answer your question but that's what I think. As far as "You'll get your arms broken" thing is a myth.. I don't believe that the "Mafia" is a myth or "No longer exists".. Do you or any other one of us want to be the ones to find out?
June 22 2012 9:02 AM baby Usnavi was born!
http://twitter.com/paisa233 http://www.facebook.com/people/Wilder-J-Rua/505202382 http://www.myspace.com/wildrua |
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KidCrenshaw Special user USA 537 Posts |
William, I've wondered the same thing myself. I think for the majority of card games in the US, it just doesn't happen.
I play with a group of guys that are pretty rough, and are cops - when we watched Rounders a couple of months ago, first, none of them beleived that card controlling was possible - like dealing a partner hands sitting across from you with 4 other guys. They didn't think about bottom or second dealing, or stacking. Of course I just sat there. Secondly, the comment was made more than once that should they ever catch someone who was cheating, they would tell him to get on down the road - with empty pockets. Now, if he didn't empty his pockets what would happen? I know what I would do. I'd love to hear from some guys that inevitably know better than me though. Surely there are some stories to be told by some of the guys here.
"Put your faith in Providence, but always cut the cards"
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Cain Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 1550 Posts |
I'd speculate the consequences of catching a cheat has a lowest common denominator dynamic. It might be similar to living with roommates: your place is only as clean as the dirtiest dude.
I, too, highly doubt you would get your arms broken. Or anything broken. Or even badly hurt. There was a guy who wrote a poker book over twenty years ago, I think his name was Frank Wallace. He was a former PhD chemist at Du Pont and into the writings of Ayn Rand. He later formed a cult called Neo-Tech, or something. Anyway, in this poker book, which I checked out from the public library as a wide-eyed teen, he taught methods of "catching" cheaters. He encouraged all types of knee-cap card play: "bring the sports section of the day's newspaper to distract others"; "If a mustard stain happens to mark a card, then make a mental note of it to yourself." He wrote about getting into regular games and then just exploiting your so-called "friends" on a weekly basis (business is business) while making them think you're a great guy. I recall reading the reactions from real poker players on the USENET to this type of gaming: such a person, people said, would get badly beat, or worse. It's just not worth it to cheat. Perhaps an exception is made for games run by spindly computer programmers. The film ROUNDERS is supposed to be a relatively realistic depection of the card scene in the mid to late 90s (things have completely changed with the sudden popularization of five card stud). The movie did have flashes of Hollywood nonsense (the KGB guy's tell; Damon thinking he was a poker god because he bluffed Chan for one hand). In the movie they were only caught cheating as strangers. If you play a regular or semi-regular game with the same group of guys over the course of several months, and THEN get caught cheating, they will (plausibly) assume you have been exploiting them for some time.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."
Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!" |
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Andrei Veteran user Romania 353 Posts |
If you're cheating friends, it's reasonable to assume that, if you get caught and don't play it particularly well, they will stop being your friends, which is not cool. Of course, it depends. If I'd catch someone peeking I'd just tell him to stop. I wouldn't wait to see if he does it again or anything, I'd just say "stop." the first time I saw him. If, however, I'd catch him trying to somehow switch cards or whatnot, I'd be more upset. On the other hand, if you're playing with non-friends, everything can change. I have on occasions caught people peeking and did not say anything, essentially because they're not the kind of people I'd want to put 'on the spot'. The above were all for very low stakes.
If, instead, you get caught cheating proffesional sportsmen for several grand a play, you might get pulled to one side by one of them at the end and told that if you don't pay him back everything you'll be in trouble. Finally, I think only desperate people take desperate action and breaking someone's arm, or severely hurting someone in any way, is an act of desperation from most people. Andrei |
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Montethrower Elite user a little town in nowhere 422 Posts |
First of all, don't ever mess around in a Casino. It is untrue that the Mob has completely left Vegas. Yes, in the late 70's many wiseguys were rounded up, but that does not mean you can get off scot-free with a little fine. NO, no, no. The Casino is still a personal business. They can throw out whoever they want, and they still aren't too shy about opening the door with your head if you get caught. So, leave the cheating out of the Casino. But, with friends and untrained eyes, or in a regular game, if you are a truly capable cheater, go for it. The money's green.
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williamHerrick Regular user Mountain View, CA 140 Posts |
Hi all,
Thanks for replying, all. I should make it clear I don't want to cheat in a Casino, private card game, or any kind of card game; I don't even gamble. It just seems many magicians say, "Professional card cheats are often better at sleight of hand because if they get caught they will have their arms broken, get killed, etc." and this just doesn't ring true to me -- but I have never gambled so I could be hopelessly naive here! Paisa23, it occured to me while reading your post that even if the casino didn't beat cheaters up for cheating, they would go to jail in Nevada for several years and get beat up (or worse) every day for several years... Kid Crenshaw wrote: "Secondly, the comment was made more than once that should they [cops watching cheating in "Rounders"] ever catch someone who was cheating, they would tell him to get on down the road - with empty pockets." That's also what I see realistically happening to cheats in private games, but who knows. Cain wrote: "I recall reading the reactions from real poker players on the USENET to this type of gaming: such a person, people said, would get badly beat, or worse." But this seems to be like the posts here on the Magic Café about "If you ever get caught, you'll have your arms broke, etc." I wonder if this really happens, or happens often. Andrei wrote: "If, instead, you get caught cheating proffesional sportsmen for several grand a play, you might get pulled to one side by one of them at the end and told that if you don't pay him back everything you'll be in trouble." Yes, I think that is more realistic than having arms broken, etc. Montethrower wrote: "It is untrue that the Mob has completely left Vegas." I was going to ask about that as well. You read all the time that Vegas has cleaned up, the Mob is no longer there, etc., but I wonder if that is really true too. Again, thanks for your responses. |
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abc Inner circle South African in Taiwan 1081 Posts |
Not many people really gamble for big stakes. I sometimes do and I know of many people that often do. They don't always play cards though. Some play mah Jong. Regarding getting your warms broken if you get caught cheating. In all my time I have never seen it. But I have seen guys getting rough handled and thrown out without their money and sometimes without their jackets or briefcases ir bags or whatever they didn't grab in time.
I have also found that depending on what game you play there is a certain amount of skill required without cheating that can get you to win more often than not. I am not saying I never peek at cards or remeber odd markings on a card to give me an advantage. I ussually play a game called Da Lao Er or a variation of Deuces for money and according to the rules here the loser deals and I don't have that option very often, As for the Mafia in Taiwan, they very much exist and they gamble and they get very angry if they lose whether you cheated or not. So from a safety point of view I do not want to stick around to see if guys really get beat up. |
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card cheat Elite user 426 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-11-23 05:35, Cain wrote: Cain, I would be delighted if you could let me know exactly why you believe that 5 Card Stud has recently boomed in popularity. I will tell you that, in NYC, getting a game of 5 Card Stud going is like starting a fire by rubbing two short sticks together. In other words, good luck. It would be great if this game made a comeback, but most "Poker Players" (note the sarcasm) only know what they see on TV. Hence, the mass popularity of Texas Hold 'Em. So, again: Where do you get your info? |
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MagicDan21 New user California 51 Posts |
I saw a travel channel special on Vegas Cheaters and this one guy cheated in everything (all card games ect.) Needless to say, he is behind bars for the remainder of his life.
But if your going to play with friends, I don't see the point in cheating...unless your down that much |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
I didn't read everything.
I'll give you some stories though: Tackled by a guy into a pool, where punches were thrown and I was almost drowned... Punched in the face after getting doused in booze... Shoe thrown at face... Those are the three worst. And those were house games... Would I try playing in casinos? Not a freaking chance. I cheat for fun. The money is inconsequesntial. I push the limit, just to see what I can get away with. Is this the right approach? Obviously not. Look at the above examples.
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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MagicDan21 New user California 51 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-11-23 16:46, Nordatrax wrote: I've never cheated but...don't you feel any remorse for stealing your 'friends' money? I'm sorry those things happened to you but at the same time I understand their frustration for cheating (neither of which I would do). |
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halcon Loyal user 251 Posts |
Magicdan21
People cheat for different reasons, some for the money others for the adrenaline rush. It is like asking why do people skydive, swim with sharks, bungee jump, go to church, have a job etc. Their are those where it really is a necessity in order to survive. There are those that do it for the sheer adrenaline, the adrenaline junkies. Halcon |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
I would just add that cheating in America in a casino is a felony and if they catch you cheating and prove it in court the person will get a record.
People that play cards and cheat do so at their own risk. If a person plays cards and is caught cheating in a game I suppose what would happen depends on who they are playing with and where they are playing. Why people cheat - to beat the odds. Erdnase talked about the rush in expert at the card table when he talked about the sensations experienced in the front of the book. I think that the subject of card cheating is interesting and some of the moves are useful in magic. And I feel that if someone were to cheat they do so at their own risk! Just a few thoughts.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
Do I feel bad? no.
Not at all. :) I've sat down with guys and done a little show before we started playing (not often, but if I don't think it'll bite me in the *** later...). If those morons decide to play me after, they deserve to lose their money. Am I trying to justify whether its right or wrong? Nope. I already know the answer. My suggestion? Do what you feel is right.
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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Amir Loyal user New York. 296 Posts |
There's a very simple thing you can do to avoid this whole situation:
Don't get caught. |
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williamHerrick Regular user Mountain View, CA 140 Posts |
Even simpler -- Don't cheat!
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Cain Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 1550 Posts |
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Cain, I'm sorry, I misspoke. I meant Texas Hold'em. As we all know, that blasted star appears on the newer Bicycle card boxes!
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."
Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!" |
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mickey.w Veteran user HK 313 Posts |
I don't know abt it in America, but I can assume the situtation, since I can ensure you william, next to HK is a place called Macau, and if you are to come in this place a few years ago, cheat there and got caught, you are history. Literally. note that I say a few years ago. Things have improved now, indeed; but it does not mean they are over. In fact they are not. It would be very ambigious and ignorant to say that this won't happen, even for now. And yes, the community in HK and China have heard of cases of disappearance of some cheats throughout the years.
Think about it. 1.Have a quick check over the population of missing citizens every year. Why have so many people die and disappear every year, without anyone having a clue about it? 2.You read news of the Mafia from time to time. Why can the cops never clear all underground activities? The fact is, if someone wants to keep something underground, they can hide it for life. Same goes to cheating and internal punishments. The US troops claim they never torture the arrested terrorists. Even the government can be as underground as you want it. Casinos of great power and profits? Don't leave a chance. |
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rnr New user 10 Posts |
I work security in a casino in canada and for cheating if its the first offence you get a fine and trespassed for one year. Second time you go to jail.
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