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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
I've often heard disparaging remarks about "some kid" or someone's "uncle" buying a magic trick just because they're "curious" about how it worked, or some other ostensibly "unworthy" reason.
I certainly understand that folks in the magic community want to keep secrets secret. But from the layman's point of view, why shouldn't they buy whatever they please from a store that's open to the public? And how many magic store owners, even highly ethical ones, would refuse to sell a trick to someone? My questions: 1) What is the responsibility of magic dealers; store owners, magic book and DVD publishers, and effect manufacturers? The vast majority do not restrict sales to only pros or "serious" magicians, I don't think. Should they have some type of restrictions? 2) Is it unethical for a person with no interest in pursuing magic as a serious endeavor to purchase (legally) any magic book, video, or effect? What if they're "just curious" about how it works, so they go to a magic store and buy it. Unethical? 3) If magic secrets are not for public consumption, why are they put on the open, public market? What's the responsibility of magicians who release videos or books revealing (their own) secrets? Isn't this exposure, since anyone in the world is free to buy these releases (in the vast majority of cases)? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-01 04:53, jimtron wrote:...3) If magic secrets are not for public consumption, why are they put on the open, public market? What's the responsibility of magicians who release videos or books revealing (their own) secrets? Isn't this exposure, since anyone in the world is free to buy these releases (in the vast majority of cases)? Good question. One could argue that anything a muggle can buy is publicly exposed and those involved in the exposure are outside of magicdom. Those who are selling the works of others... have broken all bounds of trust and respect in the artistic community and are entrepreneurs of goods in the muggle market. Not a bad thing, the muggle market, yet it does not have some things we say we want in magicdom. More to the point... where do YOU want to be?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Not sure what you mean by where do I want to be.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
You get to play a part in the world.
What sort of world will you make as you live by your principles and act according to your interests. Gotta start somewere. You get to start with YOU.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Ok, but I'm still curious to hear the views of other Café members in regard to the questions in my first post.
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David Bilan Special user Clarksville, TN 714 Posts |
We aren't talking about nuclear weapon technology. In spite of the magician's oath of secrecy, I've never had a dealer ask to see my IBM membership card or have me perform a double lift before taking my money and selling me the goods.
The people just wanting the secrets aren't the people who pay us to perform. Ethics? If you teach someone unfamiliar with magic an effect, are you mentoring, or exposing? I have a bigger problem with cheap knock-offs being sold than I do with the layperson buying the Tarbell course.
Yes, I am a magician. No I did not make my hare (hair) disappear... it just took early retirement.
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
I'll say it before, I've said it again. Magic is never going to reach a conclusion on any of this stuff. There are too many interests involved. It's like the oil companies, on the one hand they want us to buy their fuel, on the other they want to make a lot of money. Maybe not quite to the point or even relevant, but your ethics are your own, don't expect anyone else to buy into it. Like my mother used to say "no one ever said life was fair" also she said "hope for the best, plan for the worst" sometimes she would say "who are you, and why are you in my house?" She's crazy.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Four or more good ideas there Josh,
All mixed together they don't serve you. What model of economy are you looking at? You do know that ethics is a social thing, right? The good habits of citizens of the polis to be exact. As to whether or not YOU wish to build, support and live in a crack den or a palace, it's your personal choice. YOUR actions make the world. The world is neither fair nor unfair Its just a word we use to ...
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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LostSoul Regular user Dave 148 Posts |
Jonathan,
I don't agree, I think ethics are a very personal thing. As a Christian, converted to Judaism and now, well that's up to me, my ethics are based on my belief system; they can’t be based on what the public wants me to be. I must be true to myself before all others. (Or to quote some great writer “To thy own self be true”) Now, acceptable behavior is a social thing, ethically animal sacrifice maybe fine with me (and before anyone starts telling me it’s wrong, I don’t think it is, but Voodoo believers do), but socially in our country it’s not. Now calling non-magicians muggles, did you know there is a group that would class you as a muggle, after all you don’t do the same sort of magic as Harry Potter does, and most spell that magick (which I never liked, but that’s another rant). Now, as far as selling “secrets” to “non-magicians,” I think it’s fine, because what is a magician except someone who performs illusions. I do think there comes a point where shops need to be cautious. I remember when I used to go to Eagle Magic, they kept me “honest” by showing and selling me tricks in my ability range. We don’t get the attention for the internet stores, which is something I miss and while I’ll always try and get to B&M stores when I can. As far as selling other peoples secrets…Well, if you have their permission, but if you don’t you’re a thief. (Your ethics maybe fine with this, but ethics say you’re a thief!) I think that is one point most of us agree with. Of course once something is published, things are getting into a more “gray” area (or is it grey?). I still don’t think other people should rename it and use it as their own even if they do improve or change the presentation. They need to give credit to the originator always! With the internet, it’s much easier to “research” and use what you find without giving any credit, but even if all you have is a web site, you should give credit. Well, this has gotten much too long for me, sorry… Dave |
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts |
I still believe that the widespread availability and disclosure of magic secrets is not the end-all detriment as many see it. Mark Wilson's Magic Course covers a wide spectrum of commonly-used illusions and effects and is available for as little as $9.00 on most Barnes & Nobles budget shelves.
My first magic book was a little $2.00 red hardbound tome written by Walter Gibson called "The Secrets of Magic" bought from a little bookshop in Sandusky, Ohio in 1963. It's framed and hanging on my wall today...and that book revealed some pretty interesting and professional level stuff to my 10-year-old mind. I also don't recall any special requirements necessary for the general public to mail order the original early century Tarbell series...and many of us still rely on these volumes for our current work. Talk about professional content! While the exposure of magical secrets affects us all...it's the entertainment value connected with these effects that keeps us all in business. I know how thousands of effects are done...and yet I still enjoy the artistry of a really good magic act. Laymen are no different. If you're just doing "tricks" then you're bound to hear "I know how that's done" frequently. If you're truely entertaining, however, those words should vanish as surely as that kerchief in your fist...because it doesn't matter! You're entertaining! From a professional level, the disclosure of one technique drives the true professional to develop new and even more startling techniques. We all know the ZigZag - and yet I was completely blown away when a friend performed a version of the ZigZag that uses a completely new technique...and just when I thought he was going to expose the secret...well...it looked like real magic because I was expecting something else! That's power! As long as this professional drive to improve, amuse and confound with ever new styles and techniques survives...the true value of magic will always thrive! Skip
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-02 08:58, LostSoul wrote: Ethics<-Ethos, ancient Greek word for the good habits for living in a particular city-state. We get the words "morals" and "mores" from a bit later, in Rome, where it was even more important to recognize some common "good habits" as one traveled between cities and met people from other cities with different norms. David, Perhaps a you are thinking of a different word? If you will permit, I will offer a short clarification on the term "muggles"... I see that term as a way, HERE AMONG MAGICIANS, to remind us that what we do and offer our audiences involves things which are alien to their world, and exist only in stories. As far as they are concerned, during a show, WE do live in that Harry Potter type world and are inviting them in for a look. I use the term a way to respect the frame of reference in which non-magicians live and from which we are offering a diversion. As to tolerance of those who take... up to you. If you are seen hanging with and supporting those who take, don't expect to see much new stuff.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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LostSoul Regular user Dave 148 Posts |
Hi Jonathan,
No, we have the same word, just different dictionaries ...My work dictionary is very small. It just states that ethics are moral standard, ethos is characteristic attitudes, beliefs, etc. and morals of or dealing with right and wrong. But I believe that you set your own moral standards and not society, now what’s good and what’s bad, that’s also a choice, I believe when a Bible Thumper tells my son he’s going to H**L because he’s not a Christian, that’s not only wrong, that’s immoral and not ethically sound, but the BT doesn’t see it that way, so who’s right and who’s wrong (I say neither of us, we just happen to disagree.) Now society may say one of us is wrong, depending on where you live, but in the end…(I was going to put only death will tell, but). Now as far as hanging out with thieves, you and I are in complete agreement (I think). You hang around with thieves, even if you’re not one, you get judged to be one. I think it comes down to, we agree on our moral standards when it comes to using other’s goods as your own (weather it be magic or my car) without permission, but we have 2 different definitions of ethics. As far as muggles go, I just thought it was funny that I have a group of friends who call non-magick users muggles and then another group who call non-magic users muggles. (Magick with a “k” in this case denotes natural magic, ie: witchcraft). As always, I hope I make my point clearly enough, I can never tell when I write, because I always know what I mean, but emotions (laughter mostly) don't come through. Dave (please not David, that’s my father-in-law ) (Boy this was a hard one to post, I kept going back and adding things, and then taking them out, adding them...) |
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
Mr. Townsend,
What I was saying in an odd sort of way, is that ethics are personal and social, you make a decision of right and wrong, society makes a decision of right and wrong, society is just individuals who disagree, how can they come to a decision? They can't, which is why there are new laws daily, war, murder, high gas prices....What makes magic different, especially now with the advent of the new "Street Magic", not bad, but a typically younger group, and society has not gotten better ethically with each new generation, at least not in all respects. My own person certainly does have ethical values, I have strong opinions of right and wrong. As far as the ethics in magic and what they SHOULD be, I think you and I do not disagree. However while I do have ethos, I cannot change the pattern of behavior of those who will not change. Hence "Life is not always fair". Everyone has been damaged and can usually point it out, generally with disapproval. It is less likely that everyone can point out the ways they damage others, and when they can it usually comes with an excuse.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Dave, I think it's great you have friends in wicca and conjuring. The NLP folks may not have adopted the term "muggles" yet... but it seems likely too.
As a sort of public service, and so we can avoid discussions of newspeak dictionaries and similar, here is a link to the terms in question earlier from a neutral and almost authoritative source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morals Josh, you might like the lyrics to a song by The Cure, "Where the Birds Always Sing". As people, we influence the world with our actions. I suggest we act in ways that make the sort of difference we can be proud of.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Frank Tougas Inner circle Minneapolis, MN 1712 Posts |
The best way to hide something is to keep it out in the open. I'm not exactly sure what the real meaning of that phrase is but I do know there is truth to it. Counterintuitive as it seems that statement and the following; the best way to keep a trick a secret is to publish it, seems to have some truth to it.
Downtown Minneapolis has the oldest magic store in the United States, started in 1900. Saint Paul has a huge store in the busiest part of a main street; The Mall of America has two magic themed stores and is the largest Mall in the U.S. Having said that, I could shoot cannon into the largest assembled crowd in Minnesota - at the height of the State Fair (also one of the largest in the country) and not hit a single person who’s heard of any of those magic stores. I don't think we need worry too much about secrets being sold to plain folks. Most shop owners would rather the repeat business and would sell something fairly easy and doable than sell a major secret one time. Frank Tougas Twin Cities chamber of Commerce can mail me my check now.
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
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LostSoul Regular user Dave 148 Posts |
Hi Jonathan,
Thanks for the great link, for some reason I always forget about wikipedia (maybe because I can never spell it!). But reading that I can make my case that ethics are personal, because right or wrong, at the lowest level, is a personal decision. It's funny, at lunch I was thinking about this, and the abortion issue came to mind as a perfect example. Some people thing it's very unethical, while others say it is (a personal choice), no matter what they think, it is legal at this point of time. Now, some people who think abortion is wrong, think killing abortionists is ethically OK, again this is a personal choice, one that is shared by a minority (and yes, this is illegal). I guess what it comes down to, is that I believe deep down every person has to choose what is ethically correct for them and we cannot force our ethics on to anyone, just like we cannot force our morals on to anyone. We can try and base our laws on our morals, but that doesn’t work very often. For example, abortion used to be illegal in most states; it didn’t stop them from going on. At the same time, in other states it was legal to have an abortion. Now was it ethical for the doctor’s to perform abortions on women who came from out of state? You learn your ethics from your parents, your communities, your social interactions and they will evolve. But, two people raised the same with the same environment can have two different sets of ethics. Here I’m thinking of my brother and sister, while we all three were brought up basically the same, our ethics are all different. My brother is a devote Christian whose ethics appear to follow the New Testament of the Bible, my sister is a non-practicing Christian whose ethics would run pretty central to what society, and me, I’m the black-sheep of the family whose ethics, while not completely out of the norm, I see nothing wrong worshiping in a church one day, a synagogue the next and then finally partaking in a pagan celebration to round out the week. I think what I’m trying to say is that you have the obligation to society to live by your own standards as best you can. Your life will be much easier if your standards (and ethics) are in line with societies. But when you get to the basics, you can only be who you are. I think you will find your ethics formed the most by your religious believes and what you believe your religion says is right and wrong. Again this got long, sorry, Dave |
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LostSoul Regular user Dave 148 Posts |
Frank,
I can remember when Eagle was only the second oldest magic store in the US. I still haven't seen the St. Paul one yet, I'm hoping to get there over the holidays when I'm in town. After WCCO did the story on Eagle, do still think you could fire a canon at the State Fair and not hit anyone? How about the Renaissance Fair (Also one of the counties largest and according to some people who work lots of them, one of the best!)? Dave |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Maybe someone should start a new thread to discuss ethics and morality in general terms, and how to define those terms. I'd appreciate it if we could try to stick the topic; I had some very specific questions and issues in the first post.
Thanks, Jim |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Jim, if a cannibal comes into the magic shop looking for lunch, is he unethical to treat the salesman as dinner? Certainly he is not being an unethical cannibal, so something about group norms has to come into play here.
Just as Aristotle did to began his book Ethics, we have to ask: What is the good for our community and for us as members? Agreed that we can get into Locke and Rousseau and the notion social contract under a different thread. For now, let's ponder what it means to US, to THEM, to our larger society as we consider Jim's questions.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-02 14:51, Frank Tougas wrote: Frank, what about online magic stores? Also, if the best way to keep something secret is to put it out in the open, or publish it, why are there so many complaints at the Caf� about exposure? I hear lots of exposure complaints here at the Caf�, but rarely if ever do I hear people blame magic stores or book and DVD publishers (although I do hear complaints about direputable dealers who sell knockoffs and do other clearly unethical things). The reason I ask is that I wonder if legitimate sales of effects, books, and DVDs might be responsible for more exposure than Wikipedia and other vehicles of exposure that are commonly complained about. |
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