I am working on card sleights such as peeks, bottoms, seconds, and riffle stacking. I was wondering, if while you were working in a live poker game, have you been caught and what happend or how you got out of the situation. Also maybe if anyone wants to add some thought about how not to get caught, Other than not doing it, or things that you do like certain hands that don't draw attention when you take them down.

BTW, I have not been caught and would like to keep it that way. I also do not play in high stakes only 5, 10 and 20 dollar 10 players or less tourneys or ring games. I also do this for the challenge not for the money. I feel a poker game it the ultimate test for your moves since when doing a magic trick everyone is enjoying your skill and at a table they definitely will not be.


Thanks

Sodman12,

That's illegal. I do not cheat and I don't know how many people you'll find on here that do (or are willing to say they do).

Just a heads up as well that the Café staff will probably delete this post (and rightfully so), since it is soliciting advice that will be used in a very VERY wrong way.

As my good friend and magical teacher once said to me, "I don't cheat for real because with me, it's no longer gambling, it is a certainty."

Ok well I have seen it talked about here before I know I for a fact that a lot of people here do it! Plus it don't like I do it every hand and most of the time I'm on the defense becase someone is using a marked deck! The last game I was in someone had a marked deck. Plus nothing is a certainty in a poker game. It's not like I'm double duking every 5 hands.

"I know I for a fact that a lot of people here do it!"

Can you explain how you know this for a fact? and what constitutes a lot?

Nobody should do it. Nobody should be caught doing it.

I have never done it, but seen what happens when others do it. It is not pretty

Sad, you shouldn't be using this to cheat for money. Un ethical and down right wrong.

Jeff

I don't play cards for money with people I don't know because I'm a magican. If anyone asks why I don't play, I tell them that I'm a magician and if I win, they will think I'm cheating and if I lose, they will think I'm not a good magician.

However, with my good buddies, I don't have a problem playing since they know I would never stoop to cheating.

Craig

Listen you guys act like I've been double duking and setting people up for 10 years and winnning thousands of dollars. I've done it like once I have won like 15 bucks and I would have won anyways becasue I also happen to be very good at poker and the people I play with are very bad. For the record, and this is no lie, I really do it for the challenge and deal everyone at the table good hands most of the time.

Stealing is stealing...

Some may argue that stealing a $50 shirt from a store is different than stealing a $500 shirt from another store, but I say its still stealing either way.


So don't steal or cheat, its illegal and wrong no matter how you try to justify it.

Sodman12 : There is a lot of romantisizing and glorifying of the cheating life , especially with the recent boom in gaming popularity being driven mostly by televised poker, the M.I.T. team story, and movies like Rounders, Shade, etc. I am not suggesting that you are caught up in this but I would like to suggest that you be carefull for your own good. Save the hype and romantisizing for your gambling routines and presentations. Real life cheating is not romantic, and, often by necessity, not particularly pretty. The fact that some pro's may seem to be quite slick characters doesn't translate into cheating being a slick endeavor .

I actally heard a funny comment today from somone who approached me regarding the possibility of working with him in a poker game. When my girlfriend who overheard the conversation reacted to his proposal (which I believe was made as a joke), he told her "It's not cheating, Charlene, because we already have the best hand, we're just driving up the pot." Of course, this is ridiculous and he was making a joke but it reminds me of your comment, "It's not like I do it every hand ..." or the idea that you were defending against a marked deck.

Max Maven used a quote at the beginning of one of his Parralax columns which I do not remember exactly but the gist of it is : no one turns bad immediately, licientousness progresses in degrees. My point here is what you consider fun and games now may lead you to more serious matters.

You can never be sure that the other players will suscribe to the same relaxed moral code as yourself.

If you are already moving in money games but are consulting this forum for advice on how to do so, I am concerned for you. I respectfully suggest you reconsider your path.

Now since you asked for advice other than saying "Don't cheat" I offer you this ...
Do more research and find some of these people that you claim you know are doing it and tell them everything you are doing and ask them what they think. Read Road Hustler. If you get through the entire book without losing your excitement for the prospect of cheating then disregard these remarks.

Dowser

Funny, if I cheated my friends I probably wouldn't have to many.

Jeff

If you want to practice to get your skills confident enough to try in real world situations, and don't want to end up with your guts on the business end of a knife, try doing what Dai Vernon and his buddies did. They held poker games where it was understand that they would cheat. And if they got caught, they had to pay. Of course, you'd need enough friends that share the same interests as you in card sharping.

Ok this is a funny subject to me as I'm a vivid poker player and have been way before it was the "new thing.

You want to challenge yourself then do gambling cheat demo where they know your going to pull something by them. Using sleights in a card game where most are laymen and have no clue even what a double lift is really isn't that much of a challenge.

Now on the ethics as siad cheating is cheating whether your making 2 cents of cheating or 1000 bucks. cheating people out of 5 buck is no better or worse then cheating someone out 1000 bucks the amount doesn't matter.

Peace rambling from a mad man!

I got my *** kicked and my reputation among my friends ruined. Have fun!

Thanks for the advice guys. I really do appreciate it. I am not stupid and would never even dream of becoming entangled in the hustling world. I learned the methods at first for defense since I just got to college and would be playing with people I didn't know. So I made a few moves to see if I was any good. I know its big deal but the people I play with are not fast company and I don't want to brag but I am decent at running up hands. I have had offers to play in big games where the the take was more than 1500 bucks but I don't really want to play in a big game and never will. BTW thanks dowser for your mature response I'm sure everyone that has talk down to me has never done anything wrong in there life and are perfect angles

Just a thought (and something I've done in the past), if you really just want to "challege" yourself in real condition, do the moves without cheating.

Here are some of the things I'm talking about:

-False Shuffle the cards but give them a real shuffle or two right before you deal

-Really shuffle the cards and have them cut, and reverse the cut (but since its shuffleed it wont affect play).

-When you are dealing but out of the hand, peek the top couple cards so you know what is coming.

-When dealing and have not peeked, second or Greek (you are using cut cards, right?) the burn card.

-Cold Deck with a shuffle deck.

-Cull 3 of something and then right before handing to be cut, really shuffle twice and have it cut.

-(this is stupid but just for fun)- Get the jokers from the deck, and then palm them into the deck at some point only to palm and holdout later on, and then switch out your cards twice (jokers in, jokers out)... Stupid but fun.


Some may argue that is a shaky line when you are second/bottom the burns as it affects the game, but my view is that if the cards are actually shuffled and cut, then every card has the same percentage of coming out whether you affect the order for not, so its acceptable to me.(as long as I don't know which cards I'm switching in and out).

I'm not debating that its a rush to pull off moves "under fire", but you can do that without actually cheating people and stealing their money.......

Now that you have these idea's on how to do it under fire and still as a "challege", please don't use those as an excuse for your cheating.....

If you cheat its because you want to cheat, not because of a "challege" or whatnot.

-Daegs
P.S. I havent been caught, but again I think as far as switching/palm work goes you should use jokers since A: it doesn't affect the game and B: if you get caught holding out, the fact that they are jokers should save you from getting beat up as it wouldnt help if you had them in game.

Another thing, Don't do these thinking you can talk your way out of things if you are caught, I take no responsibility of you getting beat up or worse due to pulling out some cheating moves but not in a cheating context... often whoever you are playing with will see no difference than that's your behind, I only do it this way for my personal ethics and morals and not as a safeguard from getting beat up.

I agree with what Craig said above. I have had several people ask me to play cards (poker or Euchre), even though they knew I do magic, and every time I turn them down. Even when they beg me, I still don't play, and I tell them I can do things with cards that they could never imagine (even though I am not a super sleight-of-hand artist). Just think how easy it would be to stack using a couple of Faros and/or Quine's Keeper.

I have played cards and cheated with my friends from high school and college, but only because each of us knew methods to cheat and we never played for money. In fact, they knew more about cheating with cards than I did (and they weren't magicians), but I rapidly surpassed them, mostly because of my increasing knowledge of magic. If I do play any cards with other people, I either make sure they don't know I do magic, or I perform a few effects at the beginning, then promise them that I won't do stuff like that in the game.

Anyway, I agree with those that find it ok to cheat, but only with your friends and the fact that everyone knows that everyone would be trying to cheat, like the way Dai Vernon would do with his friends. I personally wouldn't cheat if there was any amount of money involved. I value my hands and fingers too much...

I did like that suggestion about presenting a cheating demonstration. That would be a good test for you and your cheating skills. Announce up front that you will be demonstrating methods of cheating and see if people can catch you, or something.

Just my opinion.

That's a good point, sort of along the same lines of practicing your classic force even when you don't need to force a card.

The only problem with that idea, however, is what if you practice culling and stacking, or whatever, and somebody notices you doing something, and then you shuffle for real, and yet still end up with four of a kind by chance! Just because you're not officially cheating doesn't mean you won't end up with a suspiciously good hand.

I've never played card games for money, not so much for the gambling aspect of it, but because I am a magician. The people I would play with known I'm a magician, they have seen me manipulate cards, do card tricks, control cards, etc. Now in a for money game, if I won, they would presume I was cheating, and that would not be good. If I lost, well they would know I'm honest, but would think I was stupid for not doing what I could do. You loose both ways. Better not to play even for pennies.

Thanks for everyones advice I think it will help me in the long run. I don't think I will run up hands and then cut the deck since I don't want to get caught but I might in a friendly game.

I do have another question
Why is cheating in a poker game immoral when gambling in itself is considered immoral?