On the Café I have heard of different versions of this book. I was wondering which one is the best? or does it even matter?
Thanks
Sodman

Which is best determines what you want.

Every version I've come across has the original text which is, in my opinion, the most valuable part of any of the editions. However, the gambler's book shop reprint of one of the editions has a chapter at the end by professor Hoffman that I found quite valuable. Vernon's revelations has some additional information by Vernon but because it's hard to come by, relatively expensive, and has minimal additional information it might not be the most cost effective version. Mickey Macdougal published card master with the full text of expert at the card table but I found very little additional information that was useful. The Annotated Erdnase by Darwin Ortiz has photographs showing most of the moves in greater detail and the annotations are usually very helpful. Also, there are some modern variations on Erdnase moves. Consequently, I found this more practically useful than Revelations but it's also fairly expensive at $40 vs $7 for any soft bound version.

I would start with a used copy from somewhere for between $3 and $10 and see what you think. As I said, the most valuable part of any edition is the original text which they all include. I have a pdf version on my palm which I use a lot because it's with me everywhere.

I guess the best is the one that you'll read.

Dave

As Dave says, start with a used copy. A new copy won't run you that much money, if you pick up the Dover edition. But I will go on record as saying that the Ortiz annotated version is fantastic. I would personally see no shame in buying that one and working from it. Ortiz provides tips on certain moves and tricks, as well as history and references. He put a lot of work into it and it shows.

So should I go for the 40-50 bucks or just buy the 8 dollar one. I mean is the old one that hard to read?

Not for me but I've been reading it for a long time. It's remarkably clear for a book on sleight of hand. Especially for the time period when it was written. Compared to Marlo, Erdnase is a breeze to learn from. The key is to make sure you pay attention to every detail because the text is quite exact in what it says.

Go for the cheap one and decide if you want to make a further investment after you've read it cover to cover.

Dave

Yeah but if the ortiz version is soo much better(going on others opinions) then why should I not get that instead?

The Dover version is your best bet until you're sure you like the book.

Until Dai Vernon saw the masterpiece that the book really was, magicians avoided it like the plague because none of them could understand any of what Erdnase was trying to teach.

All this really means is that most people buy the Annotated Ortiz or Revelations....AFTER they've been with the cheap Dover book for a while, because with Expert as a whole, you'll either love it forever, or hate it and go buy something else.

You should definitely try to muscle through until you love it though, becasue once you love Expert, there's nothing else like it, and never really can be.

Thanks I just bought the dover hopefuly ill enjoy it

EatCT on his palm? How ironic.

You'll enjoy it for sure. You don't NEED the Ortiz annotations by any means. You can learn everything from the book and it's an enjoyable read.

But one day you'll be in a magic shop. You'll see the Ortiz annotated version. You'll pick it up and start flipping through it. You'll see a move that gave you trouble from the paperback version, and Ortiz will mention some specific touches that'll help you nail the move. Or perhaps you'll read commentary that will give further examples of where to look for similar work on false dealing. And so forth.

Expert at the card table is one of the best books ever written on card magic. Palming, shifts/pass a good bottom deal and second deal. Jog shuffle control, it is all in there. It takes time to learn but anything worth learning takes time.

I started reading the expert at the card table when I was eight years old.

The funny thing about this book is that it is a book that you never out grow. That is if you like card magic. But as you read and grow you may find that the best stuff in Expert at the card table is the theory and the useful advice and bits of business that Erdnase writes about - beside the card moves.

That stuff is what makes this book a classic and above most of the card books that are written.

The one I like is the book Revelations by Erdnase/Dai Vernon. That book to me is the master talking about the master's work!

That's what I did and I'm glad I went directly for the annotated version. I don't (yet) have the Vernon version because I'm so thrilled with Ortiz's book.

The thing is, you have to sort out the historic importance of the Erdnase book (and its nearly mythical status) from its value to you as a resource for learning technique. If you are developing your technique, you'll want to learn the latest work, even on the methods published in Erdnase. There is a certain amount of information in there that is plainly mistaken, and much that is outdated (quite naturally after a hundred years), and a fair number of bonafide improvements to those techniques. One thing that has always frustrated me about learning from older resources is that I'd subsequently learn an improved method from a more recent book and have to unlearn what I learned, when it would have been so much better to learn it the best way available to begin with. I wasted a lot of time trying to master the old school top change that I learned from Royal Road before I learned that a much improved method had been in common practice for nearly a generation! That is why I depart from a lot of guys who recommend learning from the historical texts first, and make your way chronologically up through the more recent books. I think it's much wiser to do the opposite: get your technique from the most cutting edge information available first (Card College, the Ortiz Erdnase, et al), and then work your way back in time to fill out your knowledge of the craft.

For me, The Annotated Erdnase represents the best of both worlds. It elucidates the useful techniques by including more recent improvements, and it gives a lot of great historical information and context to aid a fuller appreciation of this fascinating book. So yeah, if you're a serious student of card magic, I agree. Why just get the Dover when you know with reasonable certainty that the Ortiz and/or the Vernon annotated versions would be more valuable to you overall?

I just had to delete a long post because I didn't ask this question up front......With reference to The Expert at the Card Table published by the Wehman Bros in New Jersey with the published date the original 1902 in the same broken type.

Is this book typeset exactly as the original book was?

If it is identical, I have some interesting notes about the typesetting.

I'm currently typesetting the Wehman Bros version in QuarkExpress, and I'm noticing some large variances in the typesetting that either indicate the book was typeset by more than one person, or that it was typeset over a long period of time.

My observations only have merit if the typesetting of the later book is identical to the original.

I bought my book in 1970, so it's definitely of an older vintage, but It's been difficult for me to actually figure out which one this is, and when it was published.

I need somebody with knowledge of the original book, and how the books that were published after compared from a typesetting point of view.

If the typesetting is the same, I'll elaborate further......it's actually quite interesting from a typesetting point of view, and could be of interest to students of the history of the book and its author.

This is interesting.

I've not heard of anyone doing a serious study on the typesetting.

However, I would like to point out that the small caps actually begins much earlier. I found it on p. 28, and it's used as headings all through the blind cuts and shuffles sections.

Jason

Hi Jason, those are just small capital letters, small caps in typesetting have a large capital first letter, which is followed by smaller capital letters in the rest of the word. Take a look, you'll see the difference.
He only uses actual small caps from page 85 to page 102, then he goes back to his various italic styles.

What page 28 does have though is that it's the last of four pages of the only bold text in the actual body of the book. He never uses it again.

Another oddity is his inconsistant use of roman numerals in the book. He uses them from page 30 to page 51 and then he stops, never to use them again, even though he has similar lists throughout the book. But take a look in the index, he lists the roman numerals exactly as he uses them. Almost like an editor went through the book to assemble the index based on the writing.
Another example of this is the only use of letters as sub-headings in the book, on pages 166 and 167.

But for all of that, the use of periods and em-dash'es (or are they en-dash'es, I forget) are consistant throughout the book. He puts periods at the end of almost everything, including most all chapter titles, sub-titles, and sub-sub titles.
And he uses both periods and em-dash'es pretty much the same way throughout.

Interesting stuff.

Silverking,

I'll ask Richard Hatch if he's noticed any similar typesetting issues with other books from the same printer (McKinney) during that time period. That might at least narrow it down to the printer vice the author.

Also, I have a first edition (along with about 30 other variant publishers and years), and would be happy to look up any specifics for you.

You can look here: http://www.nls.physics.ucsb.edu/~nathanb/cards/ to figure out which edition you're working from. That list is almost complete.

Click the Powner to gain access to the Erdnase section.

Jason

^ great list of editions... thanks for that!

I find the typesetting angle facinating. I'm such a nerd.

Because most people buy Expert but don't ever actually read it. So spending the money on a Dover edtion will allow you to see if it's something you're actually going to use.

Expert is a book that requires STUDY. You won't get much out of it by browsing the pages and looking for "the five best tricks".

If, on the other hand, the book really grabs you you'll want a cheap copy to keep in your backpack, car, locker, etc. and a really nice copy like the Vernon or Ortiz edtions just for reading at home, and probably (like Dave and I) a copy for your PDA.

I have done a little typsetting and plate making the old way using letter press.

In my humble opinion and despite what the artist said I think the blocks for the illustrations originated from photographs:
Photo, Ink line traced and then bleached. From that the blocks were etched. The blocks might still exist somewhere.