A can of worms indeed. For my part I don’t believe that tarot, astrology, god etc have any basis in reality beyond the mind of the recipient involved. What I do think they can do is to explore and consolidate one’s own subconscious thoughts/feelings. That is you take from them what resonates within (thus the success of Tim’s “experiment” with astrology, cold reading, etc). These can subsequently be very powerful tools for personal growth (I have been known to throw the tarot myself on occasion). It only becomes fraudulent when people assert their external reality (without reasonable proof) and worse, gain financial advantage through those claims. Especially as Sue-Anne says “those who deceive others KNOWING they are using trickery” (Mar 7, 2006 7:11pm ). The question is what to do about “those who practise these things when their goal is to earnestly help others” (Sue-Anne: Mar 7, 2006 7:11pm ). And to me this includes clairvoyants, astrologers and Christians. No offence meant to anyone, this is my personal view aired for discussion of these points only.

I do a trick with a pole that's got four pom poms on it.

Jordan, thanks for taking the time to explain that. I think Sue-Anne can relate to you much better than you might imagine.

Zamboni, an interesting POV as well.

I believe all humans have an innate desire within them to answer the question "Why are we here?" I agree that everyone needs to be open to listen to the answers that others have found, but at one point or another, you have to be able to answer that question with a definite purpose. There's nothing more depressing than the answer "We're here for no reason whatsoever." (Although, it is possible to accept that and try to create your own purpose in life: making money, finding happiness, helping others etc).

Futureal, your sense of comic timing is impeccable! LOL!!!!

Very interesting discussion, indeed.

I guess it all comes back to that famous quote - "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice."

So true Michael J.

I only encourage people to earnestly seek the truth with an open mind - because they will definitely find it.

:)

Haven't said much on this for a while but I gotta rant again. Jordan, you may believe otherwise but your posts are overtly aggressive and verging on completely insulting, Tim and Sue-Anne have referred to exposing those who deliberately rip other people off. I believe in people finding their own way and have my own very particular beliefs that differ again from the others expressed here. I accept that people can believe what they want, but I also think it wrong for others to deliberately decieve others to sway their belief.

I am not a christian, but I think the comparrison between Christianity and Psycics is fundamentally flawed. Christianity is based on faith, and other that a few extremists believing in miracles like the Virgin Mary on a toasted sandwich it is faith alone that makes christianity. The information and beliefs are there the learn about and to decide if you want to believe it. Psycics on the other hand use blatant trickery to convince you that their belief is right, and use this deception to con others.

If you want to believe that I ching or Tarot or Tea Leaves have some true power then fine, but it seems at odds with your aggressive attitude to other peoples beliefs. Tim and Sue-Anne have never said they lampoon or in any way try to humiliate or embarrass the conned parties, they do however show people that what they are being told is real is not. It is worth mentioning too, that no psycic has every been proved true. With 1 million dollars up for grabs you'd think one of the "real" psycics would have claimed it by now.

Tim and Sue-Anne expose fraudsters, not psycics or Tarot readers not Muslim Clerics or Hindu Monks, in fact I don't believe they attack any other belief system in particular, I think they just hate seeing people being lied to and essentially robbed by people using sleights and deception.

Your list of beliefs seems to me to be more like a list made by someone who has yet to really decide what they believe in and wants to cover all the bases. You are ofcourse welcome to find your own path, but aggressively attacking what other people do believe in, is actually contradictory to what your "beliefs" seem to point towards.

I have found this discussion interesting to read, but your aggression Jordan, is, I believe, un-acceptable, whether it was a concious decision or not, you have essentially placed yourself above everyone else by making out that you are all liberal and open minded, yet you act with a fervour that is akin to religeous fanatics. And remember, fanatics are the ones with the least faith, converting people is how they justify and validate their beliefs, I however, have not heard Tim or Sue-Anne evangalize their religion, just point out the obvious deceptions to those being conned by others.



I can't believe you asked this, you had to be deliberately trying to provoke others with that. It is a stupid question that you already new the answer to, did you actually think they would say yes? Try and show respect for others Jordan, and instead of trying to read things into what others post, perhaps you could think more about what you write, and how it will be received by others.

Brendan

Thank you, Sue-Anne, for answering my original question... lots of other interesting answers/opinions here too!

Brendan,

Thank you for sharing your opinions. I think it's interesting that you are telling me to, "Try and show respect for others," right after you state that I posed a, "stupid question." I think you are missing my points, and that perhaps you are missing your own points.

I am not someone without beliefs. I have beliefs and I hold them strongly. I also never stated that chance means such as tarot have some mystical power, though they may indeed, and I believe that might be possible, and know people who believe this strongly and base their lives on it. They toss a coin to start the Superbowl(TM) every year y'know and there's a lot of Christians who believe fiercely in that.

While you state that you "don't believe they (Sue-Anne & Tim) attack any other belief system in particular", you may note that Sue-Anne said that what she refers to as "occult practices", "have a meaningfulness of - minus zero, and they are destructive to the core." She said "fraudulent" or "occult" practices, she did not say "fraudulent occult" practices, and there is a significant difference there.

You paint a pretty bright picture of Christianity as something based on "faith," while stating that psychics use, "blatant trickery." Christianity doesn't have such an untainted method of spreading its beliefs. If you'd like to research the destruction of texts written by those who subscribed to opposing viewpoints, or the numbers of people killed because they didn't agree, you may quickly see there are other ways to move people to "belief" in use. Telling people that if they don't believe that they'll burn in hell for all eternity isn't quite the most innocent way to spread "belief," but maybe that's just my silly opinion. Silly me.

I don't believe that you and I will agree, nor do I aim to change your mind.

I don't think it's good to steal people's money, but I think that making brash generalizations about how others live their lives is not so kind either. Again, I state, that that is why I raised my voice in the first place.

Following the protocols,
Jordan

Jordan, we are all expressing our opinions in here, which is great as it helps us to understand each other, the way people think and believe.

Sue-Anne has stated that occult practicses are destructive to the core. That is the conclusion she has come to, and it would be good if you could respect that. We both respect your right to believe that they are not. We feel you are wrong though, just as you feel we are wrong.

However, be careful with statements like "They toss a coin to start the Superbowl(TM) every year y'know and there's a lot of Christians who believe fiercly in that." It really weakens your argument saying things like that.

You are right though, many people have been killed in the "holy wars" etc, but these were not about Christianity, they were about people seeking power but using Christianity as a justification, just as some terrorists claim they are doing Allah's work.

The Bible says we are known by our fruit. If someone claims to be a Christian and yet breaks any of the Commandments and is not truly repentant, it is very likely that they are not a Christian.

Just as I would not like to judge the 'New Age' movement by it's practitioners, I recommend you do not judge Christianity by Christians, but by Christ and his teachings.

Sue-Anne has been seeking the truth for a long time and, just like our minister and friend Adrian Kebbe (Harry Houdidn't), she studied many, many New Age practices intensely. She found them lacking and, in the long run, dangerous.

She is not criticising others and how they live their lives, she is criticising the practices themselves and trying to help people to avoid making the same mistakes she did.

Compare it to a reformed smoker - once you quit, you want to warn others of the dangers. They may only smoke a little each day and get a great deal of pleasure out of it. They may think the reformed smoker should just shut up and let them get on with their lives. They may even take great offence that the reformed smoker says anything bad about smoking at all, no matter how nicely it's phrased. But the reformed smoker has a heart for people who are heading down the same path that they were saved from. To the reformed smoker, saying nothing and just watching these people killing themselves is not an option.

What can I say, it was a stupid question!

It is insulting to think Tim or Sue-Anne would be arrogant enough to say they knew everything so the answer was moot. Asking "If yes, then how did you come to this conclusion?" is just posturing and serves no purpose than for you to try and insinuate that Tim and Sue-Anne would be as arrogant as mentioned. The question was stupid but the follow up question was just inflamatory.

Since we are going to split ridiculous hairs there could be a defining difference between Occult belief and Occult practices.

Sorry my view of christianity seems seemed so pretty, that was not my intent. Consider it this way, I "could" be a christian, follow the good book and commandments and even go to church every sunday without it costing me money, the collection plate donations are actually voluntary. However, if I am made to believe in Tarot or some psycic then I have to continue paying them for my belief. As for the past, yes, christians have done some dreadful things, as have some jews, some muslims and even the odd so called peaceful monk has done equally if not worse things, that is however the past and I don't think T & S's beliefs are based on the old brainwash the "savages" approach or "let's burn the witch". Being a christian or simply living by christian values is most likely to benefit those around us and our communities, I must agree with Sue-Anne however that occultism is essentially worthless - unless of course you are the one collecting your followers pay cheques.

And the million is still there for the taking by any psycic or tarot type person who can't be proved a fraud.

Brendan

Good point. I agree.

Yet "sameness" is the very reason that "magic is dead" ...

John 14:6

Throughout this thread I have noticed that debunking frauds is continually mentioned as a criticism of new age practices. This doesn't seem to fit with the original point or idea. That idea being that there are people out there who use magical illusion to present themselves as something they are not in order to take hard earned money from people in vulnerable mental states. This is not a practice that is limited to new age religious practices. There are a number of fake christian faith healers out there as well who are no less insidious in their deeds. It is a good thing that someone is out there with the knowlege to expose this kind of charlatan. To be more specific I am not talking about a wiccan, or voodoo practitioner who truly believes in what they are doing but the fakir who is looking to make money off another sucker.

You're absolutely right.

The original post was about Sue-Anne and her desire to expose frauds, people who use magic techniques but claim supernatural powers, and there are frauds out their infesting EVERY belief system including Christianity.

As far as talking about our personal beliefs and Sue-Anne's experience with the New Age, it would probably have been better in a separate thread. The two topics may appear similar, but they are very different.

me too.

Aaahh dear...

Let's get back to exposing frauds, shall we...

I got done in a few times by shysters when I was a young lass. ****ed me right off, it did. Bloody waste of money, if you ask me. It wasn't the SLIGHTEST bit entertaining.

I'd rather pay through the nose to see a poorly executed Elmsley Count, rather than some two bit, hard hearted fraud take my hard earned cleaning wages!

I say, EXPOSE the ***s!

Jordan said:

"I believe that people too often focus on what makes their beliefs different rather than what makes their beliefs the same, and that it would be better if they reversed that."

But note that he also said:

"I believe that working to see things from a variety of perspectives can aid understanding, and that includes trying to view things from random or chance means such as tarot, coin flipping, I-Ching, whim or others as well as trying to view things from a specific fixed point of view. Shifting perspective is important. I believe that when people limit the way they view the world to one particular way that it criples their ability to see things clearly."


Can you see the difficulty here?

He believes we should focus on the aspects of our belief systems that are the same, yet he also feels we should try to see things from different perspectives as well.


Even if we should all focus on sharing common beliefs, while exploring each others different beliefs, what common beliefs are universal?


AFTERLIFE - Some believe in heaven & hell, others just heaven without hell, others reincarnation, others no afterlife at all.

TEND OUR OWN GARDENS - If we all did this, who would look after the poor? Whose garden are they in?

EVEN MURDER - Most people believe it is immoral, many believe it is acceptable in certain circumstances.




I'm not trying to attack anyone here or to undermine anyone's belief system, but I really would like to challenge Jordan to think a little further about the area of belief.


Even if I believe in A, B, C, D & E and Jordan believed in D, E, F, G, & H. If we both focus on our similar beliefs, D & E, what happens to all of A, B, C, F, G, & H? Do we simply ignore them?



Jordan, you also state:

"I believe that most people define themselves by their limitations rather than their possibilities, and that is quite a shame."

and a few sentences later:

"Also, I usually question as much as possible of most everything as much as I am able, but I am aware that I am limited in my ability to do this."



You seem to believe that people should not limit themselves, then you do exactly that.

The apparent contradiction is not surprising, because if you do accept that every belief, every path, even every system of non-belief could be right, then life can be a very confusing place indeed, full of contradictions.

There comes a time in everyone's life when they need to stop wandering in the wilderness and find the true path.

You were upset because Sue-Anne said that, based on her experiences, New Age practices had "a meaningfulness of - minus zero, and they are destructive to the core". Remember my analogy of the 'reformed smoker'. Whenever someone is warning you from their own experiences, even if they say it in a way that sounds severe, you don't have to accept what they say at face value, but it is wise not to dismiss it immediately. Maybe they care enough that they don't want to see you fall into the same trap that they did.

All the best Jordan.

Aye, there's the rub.

We attended a talk by renowned photographer Ken Duncan on Saturday night and he spoke of his friend Mel Gibson's experience. Apparently Mel, at the height of his fame, was so miserable he was sitting on a ledge seriously considering the option of suicide. Suddenly it hit him, "If this heaven & hell thing turns out to be real, and I think I'm having a bad day now....."