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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The March 2006 entrée: Tim Ellis & Sue-Anne Webster » » Exposing fraudsters » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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magicalaurie
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Quote:
On 2006-03-09 17:38, JordanMalfreed wrote:
I believe that people too often focus on what makes their beliefs different rather than what makes their beliefs the same, and that it would be better if they reversed that.


Good point. I agree.
Tim Ellis
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Yet "sameness" is the very reason that "magic is dead" ... Smile

John 14:6
Katterfel22
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Throughout this thread I have noticed that debunking frauds is continually mentioned as a criticism of new age practices. This doesn't seem to fit with the original point or idea. That idea being that there are people out there who use magical illusion to present themselves as something they are not in order to take hard earned money from people in vulnerable mental states. This is not a practice that is limited to new age religious practices. There are a number of fake christian faith healers out there as well who are no less insidious in their deeds. It is a good thing that someone is out there with the knowlege to expose this kind of charlatan. To be more specific I am not talking about a wiccan, or voodoo practitioner who truly believes in what they are doing but the fakir who is looking to make money off another sucker.
Cave ab homine unius libri - Latin epigram
Tim Ellis
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You're absolutely right.

The original post was about Sue-Anne and her desire to expose frauds, people who use magic techniques but claim supernatural powers, and there are frauds out their infesting EVERY belief system including Christianity.

As far as talking about our personal beliefs and Sue-Anne's experience with the New Age, it would probably have been better in a separate thread. The two topics may appear similar, but they are very different.
Corona Smith
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Quote:
On 2006-03-12 16:00, magicalaurie wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-03-09 17:38, JordanMalfreed wrote:
I believe that people too often focus on what makes their beliefs different rather than what makes their beliefs the same, and that it would be better if they reversed that.


Good point. I agree.


me too.
Sue-Anne Webster
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Aaahh dear...

Let's get back to exposing frauds, shall we...
Elly May Drudge
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I got done in a few times by shysters when I was a young lass. ****ed me right off, it did. Bloody waste of money, if you ask me. It wasn't the SLIGHTEST bit entertaining.

I'd rather pay through the nose to see a poorly executed Elmsley Count, rather than some two bit, hard hearted fraud take my hard earned cleaning wages!

I say, EXPOSE the ***s!
Tim Ellis
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Jordan said:

"I believe that people too often focus on what makes their beliefs different rather than what makes their beliefs the same, and that it would be better if they reversed that."

But note that he also said:

"I believe that working to see things from a variety of perspectives can aid understanding, and that includes trying to view things from random or chance means such as tarot, coin flipping, I-Ching, whim or others as well as trying to view things from a specific fixed point of view. Shifting perspective is important. I believe that when people limit the way they view the world to one particular way that it criples their ability to see things clearly."


Can you see the difficulty here?

He believes we should focus on the aspects of our belief systems that are the same, yet he also feels we should try to see things from different perspectives as well.


Even if we should all focus on sharing common beliefs, while exploring each others different beliefs, what common beliefs are universal?


AFTERLIFE - Some believe in heaven & hell, others just heaven without hell, others reincarnation, others no afterlife at all.

TEND OUR OWN GARDENS - If we all did this, who would look after the poor? Whose garden are they in?

EVEN MURDER - Most people believe it is immoral, many believe it is acceptable in certain circumstances.




I'm not trying to attack anyone here or to undermine anyone's belief system, but I really would like to challenge Jordan to think a little further about the area of belief.


Even if I believe in A, B, C, D & E and Jordan believed in D, E, F, G, & H. If we both focus on our similar beliefs, D & E, what happens to all of A, B, C, F, G, & H? Do we simply ignore them?



Jordan, you also state:

"I believe that most people define themselves by their limitations rather than their possibilities, and that is quite a shame."

and a few sentences later:

"Also, I usually question as much as possible of most everything as much as I am able, but I am aware that I am limited in my ability to do this."



You seem to believe that people should not limit themselves, then you do exactly that.

The apparent contradiction is not surprising, because if you do accept that every belief, every path, even every system of non-belief could be right, then life can be a very confusing place indeed, full of contradictions.

There comes a time in everyone's life when they need to stop wandering in the wilderness and find the true path.

You were upset because Sue-Anne said that, based on her experiences, New Age practices had "a meaningfulness of - minus zero, and they are destructive to the core". Remember my analogy of the 'reformed smoker'. Whenever someone is warning you from their own experiences, even if they say it in a way that sounds severe, you don't have to accept what they say at face value, but it is wise not to dismiss it immediately. Maybe they care enough that they don't want to see you fall into the same trap that they did.

All the best Jordan.
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On 2006-03-12 22:18, Tim Ellis wrote:

There comes a time in everyone's life when they need to stop wandering in the wilderness and find the true path.


Aye, there's the rub. Smile
Tim Ellis
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We attended a talk by renowned photographer Ken Duncan on Saturday night and he spoke of his friend Mel Gibson's experience. Apparently Mel, at the height of his fame, was so miserable he was sitting on a ledge seriously considering the option of suicide. Suddenly it hit him, "If this heaven & hell thing turns out to be real, and I think I'm having a bad day now....."
IT Magic
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Well summarised Tim, the one thing from my beliefs I wil share is that I believe everyone needs to believe in something, it is in our nature, in my opinion perhaps to help us cope with the fact that we will never know everything. In my travels (and there have been many and varied) I have met all sorts of people, I never found any group of believers any happier than groups who had differing or even contradictory beliefs. What I did notice was that those who had faith in something were "very" often the happier people. Some had god, some buddah, some had a tarot reader down the road and others believed in science, some worshipped nature as a goddess and others still believed in fairies, they were all very different, but the commonality was that they all believed in something and weren't struggling to accept and understand everybody else. They didn't describe their beliefs in terms chosen not to offend others or to try and encompass all other beliefs, they simply answered questions if asked and live their lives happy in the knowledge that they know the "truth".

We all need something to believe in, some of us take longer to decide what it is than others.

Brendan
Magic, Illusion and Data Management
www.stardockmagi.blogspot.com

I picture a world of love and peace, a world without war where people live together in harmony.
I also picture us attacking that world 'cause they just wouldn't expect it
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The March 2006 entrée: Tim Ellis & Sue-Anne Webster » » Exposing fraudsters » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (1 Likes)
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