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wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts 
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On 2006-03-15 09:12, citizenc wrote: I think you should read my book Tribute. |
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Christopher Williams Inner circle Portsmouth, UK 4464 Posts
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Ive only read the first post, but my thoughts are that the ACR is a structured routine. It has a beginning, a middle and an end. A flourish with cards to me is a fancy move, sleight etc, that isn't structured, and couldn't entertain an audience in the class of magic
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molsen Special user Copenhagen 552 Posts
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As for the magical quality of the ACR, I think it has a lot of potential.
If it is structured correctly (I am not saying I can accomplish that) it will allow the spectator to form a mental (wrong, usually) idea of how it is done, only to have the next step rule that out. The spectator can mentally exhaust all the possible explanations, and are then mentally open for the big finish that blows their minds. A few other tricks build up in the same way, like Card to Pocket for example. Perhaps this doesn't make sense at all, but I am hoping you get my drift. Michael |
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Talarspeed New user 77 Posts
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I agree with Barry on this. The ACR offers a contradiction. The illusion is that "I obviously saw the card go in the middle of the deck" ; yet "How is it possible that it is now on top?" It is a puzzle for your mind to solve.
A flourish is a physical phenomenon that can offer a visual aesthetic appeal. |
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Magic and Drums New user Germany 46 Posts
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Quote:
Nordatrax wrote: Nordatrax, let me ask you another question: Is there anything magical about card magic itself? Let's have a look to the tricks/routines citizenc mentioned: Quote:
On 2006-03-15 10:31, citizenc wrote: "Twilight Angels": You can take the image/ink/whatever off and on a card using a pocket mirror. Why would you do that? What is its porpose? "Immaculate Connection": You tear the centers out of your cards and can link the cards à la "Linking Rings". Why would anyone want to do that? What can you gain from doing this? "Torn and Restored": A playing card is torn into pieces and magically restored to its "original" condition. Actually, most versions can't accomplish this. Most of the time the creases in the card remain. Ok, if I imagine a Torn and Restored Bill Routine, that would make sense, but a playing card? Come on, who cares? All I say is this: Card magic has no porpose, no meaning, so I don't know about any "magical" card trick. Ok, we could argue about gambling demonstrations, but this is my opinion. If you talk about lacking magical experiences in magic, I ask the question: Why should anyone with special powers tell you what card you choose? Best wishes, Daniel |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts
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Let me clarify.
No rational person seeing card magic thinks it's real magic. They know its a trick, and I'm not upset about that. My issue with the ambitious card is this: When triumph occurs or a card changes, although the audience knows its not real magic it is supposed to simulate real magic. The ambitious card is supposed to simulate the card coming to the top? I've never seen anyone do the trick where it didn't look like they were demonstrating a move (whether or not the were presenting it that way or not). It's almost always some form of sucker/masturbatory trick. But again, I'm not trying to change anyones veiws on it. I end it in diffrent ways, either changing the colour of the deck making the deck vanish, or having the card apear folded in a little box. Whats the motivation? That the trick ends with some magic... ;)
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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Howdydoodat New user Nick Brown 26 Posts
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No rational person believes that any of the tricks that magicians do is real magic. I thought the main point was to entertain creating wonder at the same time, AC is definately not just a flourish, done properly it does exactly that. Fancy shuffles and fans will get the response that was good, now do a trick. AC has never got that response in my experience.
I like Bill Malone's 'I don't even have a pocket' routine. |
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ajb6864 Special user Greece 637 Posts
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Going back to the original post. I think that there is nothing wrong with using the ACR as a show of skill with cards, if that is what you want the effect to be perceived as. Be aware though, that this will influence how people view your other efforts with cards.
On the other hand, I personally think that the ACR is an excellent example of how 'magic' with cards can be presented. If expertly performed it can demonstrate that even though no moves were seen (or suspected) a card mysteriously travels to unexpected places several times, even when a spectator holds the cards. I think the problem, is that the ACR is now seen as a beginners 'trick' (even though it takes a great deal of skill to perform convincingly) and never moves on from there. The newcomers that perform it, have not built up their credibility and therefore is only viewed as a juggling act by their spectators. If the magician performing the effect doesn't view it as magic, don't be surprised when your audience doesn't either !!! |
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scorch Inner circle 1480 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-03-15 09:12, citizenc wrote: It gets a little tiring to keep reading that just because a certain effect (T & R, ACR, whatever) doesn't lend itself to some silly bogus story to "justify" its actions means that "it's not magic." I think a lot of people around here have just read something or heard something at magic camp and are spending a little too much time trying to fit the real world into their theoretical biases. I've got a buddy who performs an entire evening program in absolute silence. No patter whatsoever! His stuff slays people. Now, he's got some heavy duty mime and theater background, so he does tell a story in a certain way. But it's definitely not through patter. What bogus "story" is necessary for twisting the aces? It's not necessary at all! The aces magically turn over, and the closer you focus their attention on that astonishing fact alone, and the less you try to distract them with some cock and bull story, the better. Same with T & R, same with ACR. If you think that the ACR plot as it is without some silly made-up line about elevators or "how they deal in Vegas" or whatever is ineffective, you simply need to get out more and see some true professionals, because I guarantee that magic of the highest level is made all the time all around the world that doesn't use patter to artificially "motivate" the effect. Quote:
At it's core, the ambitious card is nothing more then a series of card-control moves. Pass, DL, breaks, undercuts, palming, forces, vanishes. At its core, Paul Harris' Reflex is only a series of double lifts. At its core, Gray's Spelling Trick is only a key card effect. At its core, a souffle is only eggs and flour and butter, and a couple other things. But so what? You are faulting the effect for the directness of its methods? I think you have some important concepts rather upside down. The ACR plot is the ultimate tabula rasa. The simplicity of the plot allows us to readily come up with our own routines and methods to fit our own styles. That's not a bad thing, it's a good thing, no matter what you might have learned at magic camp. |
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clamon86 Special user 508 Posts
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Nordatrax. I would as you to please read my above post. I am interested in your response to it.
And I know you're not trying to change our views. In fact we are trying to change your views. just kidding |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts
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Are you reffering to your first post on this thread?
if so: I don't think AC is a stand alone effect. It only gets the reaction we want it to get when paired with something (wether logically or not) more impressive (say card to wallet or colour changing deck) Bill Malones routine, while good, isn't a show peice. Its a quick trick. Its fun and a perfect middle piece. I would be very surprised if he ended with it. Though, saying that, he does make the card jump to his pocket which does get a great reaction (does it diviate from the card comin to the top storyline? sure. But you have to end on something stronger) I think the most telling thing is to watch the face of a spec while performing ambitious card. When the card comes to the top with the pop up move, people react and continue to watch teh deck. When the card jumps to the wallet they reat and turnaway/start talking to you/asking you how you did that/are you single/why are you so good looking etc. Why? Because that's an ending. They realize the trick is over. TandR doesn't need a story or motivation. If you had real powers you might logically want/need to fix broken things. Its a fine demenstration of you "power". Making a card come to the top? Only really usefull for a gambler, and even then you woul have to justify and explain WHY controling ONE card is usefull... Does that make sense? so I think its impressive, potentially interesting/ammusing but not a stand alone piece. Posted: Mar 16, 2006 6:57pm ------------------------------------------------ Quote:
On 2006-03-15 21:54, clamon86 wrote: I just found this post and I'm guessing you want me to respond to this. First off, you don't dispute anything I've said. 1) I mentioned it was the perfect example of masturbatory magic. You said: that can be said for a lot of tricks. I agree. So Im saying it about this one. (your example of it being a good trick because it allows you to use your sleights makes it more masturbatory). 2)I said a card coming to the top isn't magic. You said Im half right because it takes an entertainer to make it entertaining. I agree. If you're an entertainer it can be entertaining. Just not magic. 3) Finally, Im not sure how to respond to your rebutal to my statement that no one walks away commenting on how magic the trick is. I perform spong balls and ashes to palm a ton, and they have a much great physical AND emotional hook. But people walk away talking about them. Are you suggesting that AC is so good that people become to drained to talk about it? Because that's the only thing I can surmise. Tamarize does not create a bond with the spectator. Hes fun to watch because hes such a charater. Ive seen him live several times, and I have his videos, and Ive never felt that we were conecting. Tommy Wonder does have a a great routine, but his ending isn't AC. Its card to impossible location... I love you though. Keep thinking. Just my three centovos.
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts
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I would guess the key is in the title "Ambitious card ROUTINE". Denoting it as a routine and not a sequence of single card moves mushed into some form.
If you cant flourish it just limits the amount of types of production and display of the card you can achieve. No more, no less. You can do all the same tricks as Jo Flourish but he will present them better.
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
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BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts
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I've performed my ambitious card routine many thousands of times over the last ten years. I encountered many different problems with the routine, and I've spent a considerable amount of time solving these problems. After a lot of thinking and experimentation, I have an Ambitous Card routine that is very strong. One of the reasons that the routine is strong is because it doesn't use a bunch of flourishes; everything looks very fair at every stage of the routine. Take a look at this post for an overview of the most typical problems and some pointers to some solutions:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/searc......=3821167 Bill Duncan has done some good thinking about this effect. Perhaps you should check out his book Tribute found here: http://home.comcast.net/~wsduncaniv/Webs......0003.htm Finally, if the Ambitious Card isn't magical when you perform it, you need to take a look in the mirror if you want to see who's responsible for your problems.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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clamon86 Special user 508 Posts
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Nordatrax,
First of all, I wasnt disputing any of your arguments. I am saying that you should think more about waht your saying. You have an interesting point of view. You said: 2)I said a card coming to the top isn't magic. You said Im half right because it takes an entertainer to make it entertaining. I agree. If you're an entertainer it can be entertaining. Just not magic. So if that's what you think, when does card tricks become magic. Is it ever magic, or just a bunch of weird card tricks that are supposed to fool people. With Tamariz and Wonder. Yeah its not easy to connect with your spectator through a camera. Its hard enough to do that with your reall life audience, but through the camera is even harder, almost impossible. In terms of creating a physical and emotional bond with the effect and magician. To Partizans comment. Most effects are routines. A routine is a series of tricks or changes. I feel that if a trick has two or more magical effects, which applies to a lot of magic, its a routine. This is all very debatable, and I may have more to say tommorow, I'm tired lol. just my two centavos (AND NORDATRAX, HOW DARE YOU STEAL MY LINE. YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED). Just joking, but not really. later |
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James Harrison Special user Ontario, Canada 762 Posts
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Quote:
It gets a little tiring to keep reading that just because a certain effect (T & R, ACR, whatever) doesn't lend itself to some silly bogus story to "justify" its actions means that "it's not magic." I think a lot of people around here have just read something or heard something at magic camp and are spending a little too much time trying to fit the real world into their theoretical biases. If there is not justification for doing the trick, then why the heck should you do it? Because you can? That's a lazy excuse. Torn and restored is easily justified, because many people have torn up things and then changed their minds about it. (Ah, hours spent trying to line up ripped bills with scotch tape) You can make the card jump up to the top, cool. Now what? Oh, that's it? That's nice. It's like being shown a cool toy that a small child owns, he's more excited about showing it to you, then you wanting to see it. Hence, the classification of Mastibutory magic. You are doing it because you want to, and because everyone else does it when they perform at cocktail parties and restaurants. Quote:
I've got a buddy who performs an entire evening program in absolute silence. No patter whatsoever! His stuff slays people. Now, he's got some heavy duty mime and theater background, so he does tell a story in a certain way. But it's definitely not through patter. But he is telling a story. Through a physical script, not a verbal one. He still telling a story, like any good piece of theatre should. Quote:
What bogus "story" is necessary for twisting the aces? It's not necessary at all! The aces magically turn over, and the closer you focus their attention on that astonishing fact alone, and the less you try to distract them with some cock and bull story, the better. Same with T & R, same with ACR. Twisting the aces is a horrible example of a trick that is magicial. "Let me show you something I do with my spare time. I try to figure out how to turn over a card in between cards." Man, people must think magicians have no lives. You turn cards over without them seeing. Big whoop. Try and close a 100,000 dollar deal. Try and do open heart surgery. In the big scheme of things, being able to turn a card upside down in between two other cards is not an exciting thing. Torn and restored is an excellent effect, but it should really be done with money instead of cards. It would defiantly have more meaning. Quote:
If you think that the ACR plot as it is without some silly made-up line about elevators or "how they deal in Vegas" or whatever is ineffective, you simply need to get out more and see some true professionals, because I guarantee that magic of the highest level is made all the time all around the world that doesn't use patter to artificially "motivate" the effect. Again, I go back to the kid showing me his cool new toy. Its cool, but so what? Daryl won FISM with it. Congratulations to him. He won a competition judged by magicians, performing for magicians. Do you think laypeople will sit there and watch you tie up a deck of cards unless they actually paid to see you at a show? If you are hired to entertain people at a cocktail party, or a restaurant, or any strolling situation tying up the deck is a good excuse for people to find the buffet. Posted: Mar 16, 2006 10:02pm ----------------------------------------------- Quote:
2)I said a card coming to the top isn't magic. You said Im half right because it takes an entertainer to make it entertaining. I agree. If you're an entertainer it can be entertaining. Just not magic. Um, yes. Quote:
With Tamariz and Wonder. Yeah its not easy to connect with your spectator through a camera. Its hard enough to do that with your reall life audience, but through the camera is even harder, almost impossible. In terms of creating a physical and emotional bond with the effect and magician. I think you missed what Nordatrax just said. He mentioned he watched Tamariz live on several occasions. So he's going on actual experience, not just watching him on tape. Posted: Mar 16, 2006 10:12pm ---------------------------------------- Quote:
On 2006-03-16 21:05, BarryFernelius wrote: Barry, that's great. I'm sure it looks like you do absolutely nothing when that card comes to the top. But when you perform it, are you saying you are doing it with magicial powers? Or is your presentation one of gambling, or talking about trying to rise to the top of the class, or maybe its a card you can't get rid of. But if you 'are' using magicial powers, why are you wasting your time at TGIFridays showing them this trick, why aren't you using this power to win in Vegas? Hence the reason why trying to use ambitious card as a stand alone effect is the like the kid with new toy. Perhaps instead of watching the professional doing the trick by itself as a stand alone effect, maybe you should try to ease drop on their conversation after the magician has left the table. You might be surprised. Quote: zz
Finally, if the Ambitious Card isn't magical when you perform it, you need to take a look in the mirror if you want to see who's responsible for your problems. Nordatrax does perform the ambitious card, better than some so called pros in the area, but his opinion of it is what he's discussing, not if he can perform it or not. |
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Noel D Regular user 197 Posts
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For the most part, a lot of arguments here make no sense. Let me just point out a few illogical ones.
1. ACR is not magical. How is it not magical? the argument is that it's just a bunch of moves. True, but so is a good coins across. isn't that magic? Actually, Everything besides self workign effects are a bunch of moves, so that options out. 2. ACR is an example of masturbatory magic. That may or may not be true depending on the performer, but does that mean anything? The magician is allowed to enjoy the trick along with the spectator, aren't they? 3. Lack of patter Everyone is really divided in this issue, but quite frankly, it doesn;t matter very much in this instance. Presentation is everything, but presentation DOES NOT mean patter. Too many people make that mistake, and that's wha't's happening here. This trick can be given patter or not, either way, it's still very effective. Patter lines can go on and on, and overall, give the trick a it more of an outline rather than "I put it in the middle, and it's on top" as many ACR presentations have. I actually do my ACR with a story about the inlaw that would not die. Quite entertainign. 4. Is it entertaining? If you make it entertaining. This applies to everyhitng thgouh, so using it specifically for this is pointless. I don't care how good the script is, if the acotra are horrible, the movie will probably do bad. Same here. If you go on and on for about seventy seven phases of "Look, the card oes here. Now it's here!" of course someones goign to get bored. But if you can make it entertaining, then you can keep on going. It's more than the card rising, it's the card refusing to give up! That's why its ambitious. Too many people forget that. In my ACR, a lot more goes on than just the card continously rising. The card rises, but it also transposes with other cards, travels from the top to the bottom, at any number called for, and for the grand finale, the entire deck vanishes! It mgith not be your typical ACR, since although the inspiration is the same, my routine is different. The card is AMBITIOUS, but that doesn't mean it has to go to the top. Anyway, back to my main point, which is that an ACR is entertaining if you make it entertaining. 5. ACR has no definite ending. It does. it ends when you want it to. Sadly, magic is a populist art. Unlike art, where you can goon and on about styles and forms and shadings and such, the only thignt hat really matters in magic is what the spectators think. and quite frankly, they don't really care when it ends. The problem wiht ACR is that most endings don't stay true to the plot. "Your card came to the top a billion times, now its in my wallet!" Not very effective. In my ACR, the idea of the card ebing ambitious, rather than just coming to the top continously, is established already. This means when the deck vanishes, the ending is suprising, but it MAKES SENSE! The reason most people don't have an ending is because they don't stay true to the logic of the routine, or because they just re-re-repeat what they ahve done a thousand times in a more visual fashion. But even then, it's over when it's over. You can go on and on abotu the ethics of magic, but in truth, this it pointless! It matters to a certain degree, but not nearly as high up as we hold it. Also, there's one quote I want to point out But if you 'are' using magicial powers, why are you wasting your time at TGIFridays showing them this trick, why aren't you using this power to win in Vegas? I feel this is a silly question. I'll be honest, besides very small children and the incredibly religious, ahve you ever convinced anyone of your "magic powers"? I think my magic is, for the most part, firmly tongue in cheek when the whole aspect of magic comes to it. I make it clear that this isn't REAL MAGIC, for two reasons. The first one is that I had a very bad situation once where someone genuinely believed in my "powers", and I never want somethign like that to happen again. Second, I value my spectator's intellignece more than to blatantly say this is magic. However, the theatrical sense of magic is still there. I feel this is the most important part of a magic performance. There's is a little hint that maybe, just maybe, this might be the real thign. I am mostly comedic, but never during the climax. Right then, in that small silence before the applause, that is when the sense of magic really sinks into someone. Well, I'm done (except for the occasional defending of viewpoints part that comes later) with my mini rant for now. |
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BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-03-16 22:12, James Harrison wrote: Fortunately, I've never had to work at TGIFridays. Most of my close-up work has been done for corporate clients and dinner theatres. Interestingly enough, it was by listening to my audiences that I became aware of the problems with my early versions of the Ambitious Card. I've linked to a previous post that discusses some of the most important problems. I've spent significant time and effort to solve the problems, and I don't care to give away my hard earned knowledge for free. Maybe someday, I'll put my routine and presentation in print. Bill Duncan has also done some great work on the Ambitious Card. He isn't sharing his solutions for free either, but if you're interested in learning some great stuff, I've linked to his website. Daryl has extensive knowledge about the Ambitious Card. You can't get Daryl's knowledge for free, but you can find a copy of his Ambitious Card Omnibus. This contains a lot of great material and a reference section that's a veritable goldmine of information. In any case, the way to solve the problems with the Ambitious Card is clear. Listen to your audiences, do the research, and try new ideas, including new presentations. Eventually, you'll be able to come up with a solution that fits you. Or not; it's entirely up to you. Whining is easy, but creating a good magic routine is hard work. Maybe that's for the best.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts
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This thread is getting interesting.
First off: 1) I never said AC wasnt entertaining. If you're a good performer, you can make almost anything entertaining. 2) I never said AC wasnt inherently entertaining. I think an average performer can make this routine watchable as well. 3) I never said it didn't have a definite ending. I said to make it a succesful SHOW piece you NEED and ending. What Im saying is it isn't a stand alone trick. It tends to be most succesful when tied together with another trick, one that has a definite ending (read point three again before you jump on this statement...) Let me clarify once again: The reason AC isn't magic is that it doesn't simulate real magic. Making something appear or disapear simulates magic. (think about its applications in everyday life) Making some restore or change simulates real magic (again, think about it' applications in everyday life). Making a card come to the top? Not really. So there are two schools of thought (its seems) 1) Justifying it "my little brother and I were walking in a farm feild and he fell down an abondonded well. I knew I had to help him. Concentrating all my powers I caused him to rise out of the well! I was so amazed that it worked I had to try again. So I pushed him back in. Made him rise out again. Pushed him in. Here, you try. At this point he had enough, so he jumped to my wallet....") Ive never seen a good justification for this to occur using magic... gambling yes. Magic no. 2) No justification, and just going for it. Im not saying this is bad. In fact, I think this is often the strongest version of the trick (malone for instance does it this way. And for most people that seems to be enough reason to do it that way as well...) All Im saying is if you do it this way its mastibitory magic. Is that bad? NO. Theres a time and place for it. Shout outs Mark C, one of the studs in my stable (I love that phrase) for doing AC his way, despite my whining. James Harrison, for complementing me like a mofo. I love you. (That AC will be on the vid by the way 
Bill Malone, because anytime you seem to drop his name people listen more. clamon86 for being so generous with his centovos. (when you say I should think more about what Im saying, are you insinuating that it wasnt well thought out? I still lvoe you regardless) quick notes: I don't think my ablity to perform AC has anything to do with what I'm writing. Listen to what I'm saying, then decide whether or not if you agree with the statement, rather then the person. I love bill Malone (thats three times in this post alone) but I don't do everything he says. Some of it works for me, some doesn't. I pick and choose. that's why I get the ladies. The patter about abusing your little brother and commiting neglegent and possibly homocidle acts of violence with him as a patter for AC is my gift you. Use it wisely. I have for many years. Lets be hounest, rebooking is for sucks and losers.
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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James Harrison Special user Ontario, Canada 762 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-03-16 23:23, BarryFernelius wrote: Using TGIFridays was just an example. The two places that you site that you do magic in are places that will advertise you, so people expect you. I table hop. Most of the time people don't know I'm there, even with the big poster at the entrance saying what days I'm working. So my view point may be a little jaded verus yours. Quote:
I've linked to a previous post that discusses some of the most important problems. I've spent significant time and effort to solve the problems, and I don't care to give away my hard earned knowledge for free. Maybe someday, I'll put my routine and presentation in print. I'm sure you have spent time. Nor do I care to 'steal' your knowledge. But when one says they have 'solved' problems with dais trick, one should provide examples, instead of trying to take ones word for it. Quote:
Bill Duncan has also done some great work on the Ambitious Card. He isn't sharing his solutions for free either, but if you're interested in learning some great stuff, I've linked to his website. I don't want to buy his book, nor was I interested in looking for that. I was just trying to discuss this topic at hand. Quote:
Daryl has extensive knowledge about the Ambitious Card. You can't get Daryl's knowledge for free, but you can find a copy of his Ambitious Card Omnibus. This contains a lot of great material and a reference section that's a veritable goldmine of information. That's great, but little off topic. Daryl has a wealth of info on this trick. But doesn't delve anywhere close to what we are discussing. Quote:
In any case, the way to solve the problems with the Ambitious Card is clear. Listen to your audiences, do the research, and try new ideas, including new presentations. Eventually, you'll be able to come up with a solution that fits you. Or not; it's entirely up to you. I have my own presentation of the Ambitous card, and I've put years into it, put the trick on a shelf, then took it back down to wipe the dust off. I have put more than 15 minutes into my display of this trick. But then, we aren't discussing whether my presentation is up to snuff Quote:
Whining is easy, but creating a good magic routine is hard work. Maybe that's for the best. *sigh* why is it when one goes online, and have a different opinion than someone elses, they think you are whining. I'm discussing my view points, not whining that I can't get the trick to work. Any time you are in the Toronto area, let me know. I'll show you the venues I work. See how well it works for you. |
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Magic and Drums New user Germany 46 Posts
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James, tell them what we are thinking. Your English is (of course) much better than mine. Since nobody noticed I told the same, YOU have to accomplish this mission! Tell them the difference between Entertainment and Magic!
Best wishes, Daniel |
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Posted: Mar 16, 2006 03:19 am 
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