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ShawnB
Special user
717 Posts
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Posted: May 4, 2006 10:27pm
Hello all.
I just had a quick question. I did a search but was not able to find the info I
was looking for. Hopefully someone here can help.
I have seen that it is possible to have coins re-milled... And you can have shells
made with remilled edges as well, my assumption is the remilling is done before the coin is made in to a shell.
Do you think it would be at all possible to safely remill a shell after the fact?
I just got a custom Morgan set made... However the shells are very worn on the edge... They are absolutely beautiful and I would not want to compromise them.
I was wondering if anyone had any advice.
Thank you.
Shawn.
Shawn.
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magicxman
Regular user
143 Posts
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Posted: May 4, 2006 10:34pm
You can ask the maker to re-milling them for you.
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25257 Posts
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Posted: May 4, 2006 10:37pm
Shawn, ask one of the two big guys in this field for help.
Their names and emails are on this site.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Magicpitch
Regular user
198 Posts
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Posted: May 4, 2006 10:37pm
I wouldn't recommend doing it once the coins are done, but it can be done.
Trying to do the right thing, one customer at a time!
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Dan Watkins
Inner circle
PA
3014 Posts
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Posted: May 5, 2006 9:42am
When a coin is re-edged a tool is used to cut into a coin to create the edge.
When you are cutting into a coin, you are cutting deeper into the metal.
You really do not want a tool cutting into the edge of a shell, because underneath the edge of the shell is air, not more silver. If you cut a shell edge you will most likely bend the edges horribly as well as pierce right through them.
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Magicpitch
Regular user
198 Posts
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Posted: May 5, 2006 3:49pm
Dan, that's solved by making a fixture that the coin slides up on, which supports the coin while it's being cut. However, by cutting, the distance from the inside diameter of the coin to the diameter of the bottom of the new groove is being cut at is diminishing. So to put the grooves on, you're actually weakening the shell.
It might fit on the fixtures they currently use, it might not, so it's a chance you'll have to pay for fixturing. If not, the amount you'll pay for this special job probably exceeds the price of a new shell with better edges, at which time you'd have one made properly and not cut down any, so the shell will be stronger.
Hope that helps in so way.
Steve
Trying to do the right thing, one customer at a time!
http://www.magicpitch.com/
We weed out the junk so you don't have to!
Visit our Blog at http://magicpitch.blogspot.com/
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Allan
Elite user
406 Posts
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Posted: May 17, 2006 12:24pm
Don't know if it is possible, but why not have the coins (edge) softened to match the shell?
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Tom Bartlett
Special user
Our southern border could use
763 Posts
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Posted: May 18, 2006 1:28am
The original coin edge was not cut, it was for the lack of the proper term, it was knurled. Knurling does not remove metal, just moves it. A good hobby machinist should be able to make a fixture to hold the cion from the inside, so not to deform it’s shape while knurling the edge. This could even be done without a lot of sophisticated machines by the right craftsman.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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John Long
Inner circle
New Jersey
1780 Posts
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Posted: May 20, 2006 6:33pm
Is there anything short of remilling that I can do to the coin to improve my grip on it?
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Tom Bartlett
Special user
Our southern border could use
763 Posts
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Posted: May 21, 2006 1:52am
Yes, Knurling!
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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John Long
Inner circle
New Jersey
1780 Posts
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Posted: May 21, 2006 2:27pm
So how do I do that?
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Sleightly_Done
New user
Orange Park, Florida
76 Posts
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Posted: Jul 2, 2006 12:40am
Quote:
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On 2006-05-21 01:52, Tom Bartlett wrote:
Yes, Knurling!
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I'm pretty sure the edges of a coin are not created by knurling. I would really like to hear the true answer from one of the actual "big coin gaffer guys".
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ShawnB
Special user
717 Posts
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Posted: Jul 7, 2006 10:36am
This is the message I got from Todd.
"well, it depends how thick the edge is. normally the shells I make, I try make the edge at thin as possible and still have pretty good integrity. if we shaved it down after the fact, I am afraid it might be a bit compromised. cheers.
todd"
Shawn.
Shawn.
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paisa23
Inner circle
7 years no smoking. And counting
6385 Posts
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Posted: Jul 10, 2012 1:19pm
Big Coin Little Purse and Hanging Coins are the effects that I want to do but am having a hard time maintaining the grip cause of the worn edges on my coins. How do I fix this?
June 22 2012 9:02 AM baby Usnavi was born!
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bowers
Inner circle
3009 Posts
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Posted: Jul 10, 2012 10:20pm
Instead of changing the coin.
get som camirand spray for the hand.
it gives you extra gripping power
to hold the coin.works wonders for me.
it can be bought at penquin magic for
about 6 or 7 bucks.
todd
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paisa23
Inner circle
7 years no smoking. And counting
6385 Posts
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Posted: Jul 11, 2012 12:17pm
Bowers I like that for a gig or something but since coins are in my pockets at all times or always my go to for Impromtu and practice I need a better fix then if I KNEW I was about to do a show. Im playing with my Kennedys and they Edge/Web Grip fine its my Walking Liberties that are too worn.
June 22 2012 9:02 AM baby Usnavi was born!
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Motor City
Elite user
Home Of Motor City Close-Up Convention
419 Posts
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Posted: Jul 11, 2012 3:54pm
Paisa23,
Try putting violin resin on the edges of your coin. It should be obtainable in a good music store. This lasts for quite a while. A friend showed this to me and I could not believe how much easier it was to grip the coin or shell.
www.johnlukamagic.com
johnlukamagic@gmail.com
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Blacksmith64
New user
56 Posts
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Posted: Jul 11, 2012 10:44pm
Quote:
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On 2006-05-21 14:27, John Long wrote:
So how do I do that?
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I suggest you find someone who's good with a lathe and a milling machine. They'll certainly be able to help you.
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Double J
Veteran user
305 Posts
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Posted: Jul 12, 2012 2:37pm
Quote:
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On 2006-05-18 01:28, Tom Bartlett wrote:
The original coin edge was not cut, it was for the lack of the proper term, it was knurled. Knurling does not remove metal, just moves it. A good hobby machinist should be able to make a fixture to hold the cion from the inside, so not to deform it’s shape while knurling the edge. This could even be done without a lot of sophisticated machines by the right craftsman.
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Coins have a 'reeded' edge. This is not done by using a Knurling tool. In fact, contrary to what you say, There is both 'Pressure knurls' and 'Cutting knurls' You should not be giving advice on something you do not know.
There is an easy solution to the problem.
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TWOCAN
Special user
PORT RICHEY FLORIDA
671 Posts
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Posted: Jul 12, 2012 3:56pm
PREV ARTICLE NEXT ARTICLE FULL ISSUE PREV FULL ISSUE
V11 2008 INDEX E-SYLUM ARCHIVE
The E-Sylum: Volume 11, Number 35, August 31, 2008, Article 11
DICK JOHNSON ON COIN REEDING TECHNOLOGY
Dick Johnson forwarded this detailed report on minting technology surrounding edge reeds. -Editor
Let's define some terms. A reed is the wave from the top of one raised ridge to the top of the next ridge. Reeding is the collective term for all the reeds. The ridge has its own term knurl and collectively known as knurling . The indentation is known as a flute. A reed is one knurl and one flute. Reeds are created by the collar when struck in a coining press. The collar is a large flat ring with a center aperture nearly the exact size as the coin being struck. Both dies have to enter this aperture and retract. The clearance between dies and the collar wall is thousands of an inch. (If the clearance is too great this is an area where metal will escape as flash this is how wire rims are formed.)
The collar has grooves cut on the inside wall of the aperture these form the knurls on a coin. The grooves are cut by a tool-and-diemaker . The shape of the knurl depends upon the cutting tool he uses.
When a coin is struck the metal in the blank expands to fill all the modulated relief in the obverse and reverse die, all the design devices and all the lettering. At the same instant the blank expands up against the collar. All things being right like the correct mass of the blank and the correct pressure of the press metal flows into all the openings in the collar to fill and form all the coin's knurls. That's the reeding. If there is not enough metal to completely flow into the grooves the tops of some of the knurls are incorrectly formed. Usually increasing the pressure of the strike will remedy this problem.
At this point in the press cycle the coin is frozen in its chamber. It must be removed ejected by one die pushing it out. There is a mechanism built into the press, an eccentric wheel with a kickout pin pushes the die past the edge of the collar so the struck piece is freed.
A coin with reeding must easily slide out during ejection. Other than a blank wall aperture forming a smooth edge coin reeding is the only edge treatment where this can occur. Obviously, lettering or any edge ornamentation, or even diagonal lines cannot be ejected in a coining press. (Edge lettering is an entirely different subject, completely different from our discussion here of reeding.)
We should also mention interrupted reeding. This is the technology to place a smooth area on a reeded edge piece. A smooth area is useful for placing hallmarks, edge lettering and such, in contrast to the entire circumference with reeding, which numismatists call fully reeded. It is created by leaving the inner aperture wall blank where a smooth area is desired.
In 1965 the Franklin Mint used this concept for a great commercial use. They were striking gambling tokens of similar size for many casinos in Las Vegas. They learned that patrons were carrying these tokens to other casinos. They needed a quick way to identify host tokens from those of other casinos. By using a different collar with unique pairs of reeded and blank areas for each casino the tokens would stand out when laid in rows. Joseph Segel, as president of Franklin Mint, received U.S. patent 3350802 in 1967 for this invention.
As mentioned in last week's E-Sylum, reed counting can be a diagnostic to distinguish two different coins. U.S. Assay gold coins were mentioned. A more modern example is the 1968 Canadian dime . The Canadian Royal Mint could not supply a large order for the 10-cent coin that year. In addition to what it produced it asked the Philadelphia Mint to strike the Canadian dime as well. The Ottawa Mint supplied obverse and reverse dies to the Philadelphia Mint, but did not furnish an accompanying collar. Philadelphia pressmen grabbed a collar off the rack intended for a U.S. dime, since both were of the same dimensions. That collar had a different reed count and this is the only diagnostic to differentiate which mint struck any 1968 Canadian dime.
Reeding has some beneficial advantages. It aids the blind (a reeded quarter is thus different from a smooth edge nickel of similar size), and it aids everyone in picking up and holding on to the coin. There are also some advantages in coin sorting and counting machines as well.
Placing reeding on coins is almost as old as the use of the collar in coining itself. The collar was first used by Aubin Olivier using a screw press at the Paris Mint in 1555. But we don't know which was the first coin with a reeded edge. It might have been influenced by Sir Isaac Newton who was a strong opponent of coin clipping. As Mintmaster at Britains Royal Mint he sought ways to combat shaving or clipping the edges of coins. The reeded edge was created to halt scraping or filling off metal from coin edges to melt the filings.
Dick Johnson adds:
QUERY: For knowledgeable E-Sylum readers, I would like to ask: What was the first coin with a reeded edge? It would probably date late 1500s or early in the 17th century. (And don't tell me ancient coins were reeded those serrations are something else.) I would like to know the first diestruck coin with reeding.
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