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Scott Nettles New user Phoenix Az 28 Posts |
Hello everyone. I recently purchased Palms of steel II Fists fo Fury and I'm very pleased. This is a great follow up to POS I and I highly recommend picking up a copy. It's a pleasure to watch 3 verrrrry talented coinmen do their thing. One of the sections of the video is Kanoia Harbottle performing a wonderful routine that utilizes a palm known as Mutobe palm. In his explanation of the effect, Kanoia explains that Mutobe (a Japanese magician) uses a lot of edge grip in his routines and it makes his stuff look really cool. He goes on to say that edge grip is really the way to go nowadays if "you use it the right way and not the David Roth way." Can anyone clarify what this means? I'm relatively new to coin magic(about 2 1/2 years) and I'm incorporating al ot of edge grip into my routines. Seeing as though I learned the edge grip from the Roth videos, I'm sure I'm doing it the Roth way. I just want to be sure that I'm using this wonderful concealment in the best way possible. Thanks, Scott
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Kainoa Elite user NewArk, Delaware 424 Posts |
Hi Scott,
First allow me to apologize for my flippant, late-night, “we’re going to film this now even though it's three in the morning my body time?” comment about Mr. Roth’s use of edge grip. As everyone knows (and as the thread on edge grip on the Genii forum echoes), Roth’s work on edge grip is seminal. Issues of what is the “right” and “wrong” way for using a technique are subjective to the abilities of particular performers and their given venues. My poor word choice was extremely inconsiderate. However, this does not change my basic assertion, which put in a (hopefully) more intelligent and less belligerent question is “what techniques that go beyond Roth’s original sequences have led to more efficient and visually appealing coin magic?” Although I’m not up on the many videos Roth has produced, my knowledge of his work through Kaufman’s Coinmagic and Expert Coin Magic has led me to believe that his use of edge grip is very static: by this I mean 1) he limits the display of the “empty” hand to 90 degree angles where the coin held at the fingertips remains stationary (i.e. doesn’t spin, which is apparently a touch a number of people came up with after his lectures on edge grip), 2) his methods of getting the coin into edge grip rely on direct placement into the palm rather than a technique that surreptitiously levers the coin into the palm (as in the edge grip retention pass techniques shown on Curtis’s earlier video as well as on PoS II--this technique was also apparently developed soon after Roth’s original lecture; I believe Jonathan Townsend comments on this on the Genii thread), and 3) once the coins go into the palm the stack remains where it is (unlike R. Paul Wilson’s delightful hand to hand change over that works out of edge grip or Curtis’s transfer from right hand edge grip to left hand finger palm which I think is featured on the original PoS or the stack transfer from edge grip to Mutobe palm I perform on PoS II). Roth’s “Flash Production” sequence published in Coinmagic does hint at where a number of people have gone with the palm, but is only a hint of what has occured and, I think, of what's to come. All I’m saying is that there was (and is) quite a ways to go with edge grip techniques from the original methods, and I think the work of a number of magicians (including Townsend, Kurtz, Kam and Mutobe) vouch for this opinion. I would only point out that someone needs to get Mutobe-san into the states to lecture and/or tap him for a DVD as a means of making our magic more globally conscious. His use of edge grip is incredibly innovative (from complex stack work to fascinating spellbound techniques) and it’s a shame that so few of us have had the opportunity to see him. I hope that helps to answer your question. Best, Kainoa |
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
Kainoa:
Maybe our Mr. Brooks will consider having Dr. Mutobe for the Café Convention? I'll also mention to Danny Archer that Mutobe might be the guy for the Coinvention, now being considered as an add-on to LVMI. Scott: I think tha above certainly addresses the major part of your question. The short answer is, "Think about other advantages to having coins concealed in edge grip position that have nothing to do with Roth's "Edge Grip Display". BTW, to give Mr. Roth his due, see his Sacramento lecture for one application of EG along these lines, and for some of his ideas about what makes EG work and what doesn't work. See also: Anything Geoff Latta eventually puts out. I don't even know what this stuff is, and I'm dying to see it.
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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Tony Veteran user Los Angeles 303 Posts |
The suspense is killing me. Where is the convention going to be held?
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Kainoa Elite user NewArk, Delaware 424 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-12-11 18:30, Curtis Kam wrote: I think a Coinvention is the only way we're ever going to get him on this side of the Pacific puddle....unless, of course, we do the Dentist Magic Seminar we've always talked about. With Les Au for stage and Mutobe for close-up, it doesn't get much better |
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-12-11 18:30, Curtis Kam wrote: I was just about to mention this - you beat me to it Curtis. Roth definitely does have a way to lever coins up into edge grip, he demonstrates it and also demonstrates Kurtz' technique on the Sacramento tape. |
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Larry Davidson Inner circle Boynton Beach, FL 5270 Posts |
One of Rubenstein's tapes shows the Roth method of levering coins into edge grip as well.
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Scott Nettles New user Phoenix Az 28 Posts |
Hello everyone. Thank you very much for your prompt replies. You guys definitely answered my question. Kainoa, I would like to apologize for spelling your name wrong on my first post. I realized it when I turned on POS II and saw your name on the screen. Don't know if you noticed, but sorry. As for the edge grip, I have all the Roth videos (I think) and he shows a few different methods of getting the coins into edge grip. The method I prefer is actually from David Stone's coin magic video Vol 2. It requires a little gesture to cover the small movement of the fingers but done with the correct timing it's undetectable.
I would also be very interested in attending a Coinvention. Curtis, how about having it in Hawaii? We could all crash in your living room and use your kitchen as a workshop. Seriously, Vegas would be perfect. I live in Phoenix so it's only about a 4 1/2 hr drive. Just please post the info and I'm there!!! Thanks everyone, Scott |
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Sneakers Regular user Melbourne, Australia 106 Posts |
I'd like to vote for Hawaii! It's a lot shorter to hop from Melbourne, Australia to Hawaii than it is to go all the way to sin city...! Besides... think about it: women... bikinis... magic... women... magic... (bikinis)!
Chant it with me now... Hawaii... Hawaii... Blue Hawaii Baby...! (Put on your best Elvis voice and give me a "thankyouverymuch") |
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
Sorry guys, but I really want to get "off the rock" for a while. You know how it is, sitting on the beach, doing coin tricks for beautiful girls in thong bikinis, day in and day out, I mean, how much of that can a guy take? I'm looking forward to standing in a $3.99 buffet line behind a bunch of senior citizens.
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Senior citizens in thong bikinis?
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Reed McClintock V.I.P. 772 Posts |
LOL
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Chris S Veteran user 393 Posts |
Scoff all you like, Curtis, but you know you ain't gettin' no prime rib for 99c over in Honalulu (AND you get a comp token for the slots along with it!)
May your moral compass guide you true - South West is where the honourable man fare. Pity those who lose their way...
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Kainoa Elite user NewArk, Delaware 424 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-12-12 13:25, Curtis Kam wrote: The venues in Hawaii must have gotten a lot better since I’ve been around. Did you ever work out that technique for doing the Pentium vanish with a spectator’s thong, Curt? |
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
Hey Kainoa, actually nothing has changed. It's just that when you were around, we never took you to these places.
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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Kainoa Elite user NewArk, Delaware 424 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-12-13 13:23, Curtis Kam wrote: I knew it!....and this from the man whose best line when performing a roll down flourish is "After years of constant practice....and unintentional celibacy"....It was all a ploy! |
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Y. Mutobe New user Japan 5 Posts |
Hi Kainoa-san
Long time no see. How are you doing! I registered with this Café forum on Jan.15, and I discovered this thread. I wish and expect deeply that a coin book of some of my reasoning, ideas, and techniques will be published in the United States soon. However, I think that it is very difficult to get the reader to understand by just the text, especially in the case of coin magic, where delicate motion of the hand and fingers is very, very important. Therefore, although DVD (or video) is required, if an explanation is included in DVD, it will spend considerably more than actual performance time for a long time. Therefore, I think that at least performance only is better. What do you think about that? I'm looking forward to getting together with you in the future, discussing and sharing coin magic with you. BTW, forget the drink! Best Regards Y. Mutobe |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts |
Well, I'm happy some of the coin transfers into and out of edge grip are getting around.
It was something of a goof when the retention-into-edgegrip finally made it into Apocalypse way back when. I recall David Roth asking about this and being less than enthusiastic about the move at the time. And yes it works with more than one coin at a time.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dave Shepherd Regular user Washington, DC 116 Posts |
You guys are digging me deeper into fascination with coins, both here and on Genii.
Are there major print sources for these more dynamic applications of edge grip, or are they mostly on video? I must say that the uses I make of it are based on the Roth applications, from the two big books (CoinMagic and Expert Coin Magic). I'm not an anti-video snob, but I like to live with and dig into print descriptions. The major "moving" sleight that I know of to get into EG is Roth's ring-finger lift up. (I believe this is in CoinMagic, yes?) Having seen others use that great edge concealment while moving/spinning coins at the fingertips makes me very envious. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts |
Dave,
the retention-to-edgegrip and its basic transfer move were published in coin-go-return in Apocalypse. The move you are 'envious' of is Geoff Latta's "nowhere palm", which was somehow used and published in a Kurtz routine. You might check with Curtis Kam about the more recent moves and transfers.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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