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Pal Bodnar Regular user Playa del Carmen, MX 112 Posts |
Hello guys,
One thing I think everybody realized that the stuff you buy on DVD about crooked gambling is ********. I think there are 5 things which is useable, bottom deal, palming cards, false shuffle, shift and cold deck. The others are good for nothing, or maybe not in the game Texas Hold'em. Any other opinions? Other question about stacking, I think this is the hardest part, Richard Turner must have gaffed cards in his show in Mgaic CAstle, becouse I can't belive it he is totaly blind and can deal anything out in any game... I am waiting for opinions! Regards, Paul
Pal Bodnar - In Magic We Trust
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Expertmagician Inner circle 2478 Posts |
I think different hustlers decide to specialize in only certain areas. For example, I am biased in that I feel that riffle stacks, false shuffles and a table pass are best becasue the dirty work is done before the fact and you can deal clean.
Others like flase deals (seconds, punch, bottoms, etc.) I feel that more people heard of things like "dealing from the bottom of the deck" so there is more heat on a deal and less on the shuffle. As far as marked cards are concerned.....I prefer Juice or Luminous which can not only be used in the standard way...but, also may be used to assist with culling to make stacks more subtle...since you don't have to look at the faces of the cards. Of course, this is just my opinion and others may vary
Long Island,
New York |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Another thing you should realise is that most crooked gambling guys doing the DVD are magicians who have never done the moves for money.
So yea the information may not be "golden" in a game situation but consider this. There has been a long standing theory in magicdome that if you get one trick or move from a book, then it was worth the price of the book. You just got 5 from your DVD. Be happy. As for real game stuff, since it is distinctly NON theatrical, why would anyone want to use it at the Castle? Apples and oranges my friend.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Pal Bodnar Regular user Playa del Carmen, MX 112 Posts |
Hi Dannydoyle,
you are absolutly right, on every "crooked gambling DVD" there is the same stuff, anyway you learn these when you are learing magic. I have a lot dvd about crooked gambling and the serious stuff won't be exposed by a real CARD SHARK, everything what you learn from DVDs are good to show off your friends you know this and that or to do a poker demonstartion. In a serious game no chance to execute the moves what you learned from the DVD, there are many other methods, you will finde out what works and what doesn't. The strongest weapon is cold decking, you do it two times at one night and your done, you are the winner. Any other opinion?? Regards, Paul
Pal Bodnar - In Magic We Trust
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jcards01 Inner circle Waterloo, IL 1438 Posts |
I know Richard personally, and whether he used gaffed in the Castle act or not I do not know. Did not witness it. But I do know he does NOT need gaffs to do it!!!!!!
Jimmy 'Cards' Molinari
www.jimmycards.com |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Paul,
I tend to agree with you. However, if you are going to use dvd's and books to learn how to cheat, it's a lot like magic. There is no one source that can teach you how to cheat in every game, at anytime, under any conditions. You pick and choose, mix and match, adapt, improvise, and overcome. It's not true that the moves would never be exposed by a "real CARDSHARK". The fact is that many of the moves that are taught on those DVD's DID come from real sharps. It's just that the moves were exposed a long time ago. But there is no doubt that they are moves that have been used by real cheats. Many of them are not magicians moves, even if it is a magician who is teaching the move. It's just like this forum. There is a lot of good advice. But not one person here can say with any certainty what would work (or not work) in the games that YOU may find yourself in. I honestly believe that there is no right or wrong answers. Just as there are no good or bad moves. If I posted a video clip of a certain move, any move, there would be a hue and cry from the various members saying; "that would never fly" "you get your hands broken if you tried that" "you'd wind up in the morgue if you pulled that move". Maybe, maybe not. Because they have no clue about the games I play in... have never met even ONE of the people I have played with. Have never seen the room or the tables I've played on. Yes, I might get laughed out of the room at a magic convention with a crude move. But that does not mean that same move, at the right time, in the right game can't get money. That's just a fact. Obviously, the better you can perform the moves, the more invisible they become, the more naturally you can do them...the better. The higher the skill level, the faster the company you can run with. When you watch those DVD's you have to view them from the perspective of YOUR OWN game. That's when you can decide what is the real work...For you. If it can't work for you, it's junk. That dosen't mean someone else couldn't do something with it. If you are just studying from an academic standpoint. No, I don't believe you are going to find out many absolute truths about "real work" or anything like that. Cheating (stealing money) is more about a mindset than fancy moves. The cheating DVD's can give you some tools, but if you are going to cheat, it's your heart, mind and soul that REALLY needs to be developed. Possibly developed to a level that you really don't want to achieve. Possibly to a level that would keep you from being able to live with yourself. I try to keep it real when we talk about cheating here. And leave no doubt as to what it really is. It's stealing money. You can steal with finesse, like a high degree jewel thief. Or you can steal money by clubbing someone over the head and cleaning out their pockets. Figure out the way you want to steal money and go get the tools you need, if that's what you want to do.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
Hi Paul,
Because hustlers in general don't tip, the "real work" tends to be learned in bits and pieces unless you're in an environment where you might have a true mentor who simply teaches you everything......not something that often happens. A brief piece on a DVD combined with something you might have read in the Café and all of a sudden you've got a move that hustlers traditionally don't tip. A line in an old book like "Sharps and Flats" combined with a picture in a newer book and maybe you figure out how to make N-Strippers. You might actually get to know a hustler and have them show you one or two things. Also, don't presume that folks like Darwin Ortiz, David Malek, Sal Piacente, and Steve Forte don't know the "real work"....they do, but they don't tip it, they sometimes alude to it, but they don't outright tip. If they did, the hustlers would stop talking to them. But their DVD's are FULL of priceless clues to how hustlers really do their work, but in the end you have to put all the pieces together. The key to learning the hustlers secrets, whether for simple academic purposes or because you aspire to be a hustler lies in books. It can take a bit to figure out exactly which books, but they're out there and they're by and large available. Some books like "Road Hustlers" can go for up to $100.00 and can explain the mind set that true hustlers experience, something you couldn't possibly learn unless you were a hustler. This makes "Road Hustlers" priceless if this is your pursuit. Many others (or combinations of them) can teach you the roots of the actual moves and cons. Although not held in the highest regard by true hustlers, there are many of us (I'm one of them) who simply follow the hustlers world out of pure interest. We also tend to attempt to learn as much as we can about how they work and live. If you're a magician, especially if you're a card handler, you have the added enjoyment of learning and perfecting their moves. In the end though, there is still MUCH we don't, and won't know, simply because we're outside looking in, we're NOT real hustlers, just interested magicians who take the time to learn the moves. BUT.....if you want to do this stuff for real, and if you want to execute these moves under fire, it's a very different world and a very different mind set. Actually sitting down and cheating at a table isn't something that is going to "just happen".....it's a BIG difference from most of what gets discussed here on the Café. Real hustlers that visit the Café will talk to you, and they'll tell you when you're wrong, they may even imply that they're tipping you the "real work" but remember this.....regardless of what they say, THEY NEVER TIP THE REAL STUFF! |
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Pal Bodnar Regular user Playa del Carmen, MX 112 Posts |
Hi silverking,
You are absolutly right, I know the feeling when you are executeing the moves under fire, I know it is a different world that's why I can talk about it, but on the other way I think you figured out I am a noob in this business. And you can't be a hustler and a magician, it doesn't fit, I am a magician but I am steal interessted in this topic, but as you can see I am interessted in many topics as pickpocketing, crooked gambling, escapes, close-up card magic, street magic and some mental. So my interesst is very wide as you can see. Becouse these are the cool stuff in the world of magic and I want to know everything (i know I can't but as much as possible) about them and know them and practice them and execute them smoothly and perceftly. To be a Card Shark is a life style and very dangerous. But thank you for your lines, I like to talk with people with same interst. Regards, Paul
Pal Bodnar - In Magic We Trust
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NeoMagic Inner circle I have... 2017 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-14 04:54, Paul Escape wrote: I believe Richard Turner is "legally" blind which doesn't necessarily equate to complete blindness, though admittedly his vision must be extremely poor indeed... and of course this isn't to take anything away from his great skill which is the envy of his peers.
See and download my latest free card-suits-themed desktop wallpaper | HERE
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Paul H Inner circle UK South Coast 1135 Posts |
I sort of agree with Silverking and sort of don't. So what on earth does that mean? It means that the hustling field is complex and multi-layered. There are many hustlers who are using techniques to cheat that are common knowledge and well known in books and DVD's. Some hustlers move in an embarrassing and obvious way and belong to a less skilled class of cheat, others specialise in one or two moves that they use in highly deceptive ways all the time in specific gaming environments. There is a range of skill levels out there and much of it is not the idealised bionic card handling we imagine. I suspect that many of the moves such as cold deck switches, false deals, stacking, peeking etc are all well known and well used. If they get the money for a particular hustler, they will be gainfully employed... it is as practical and utilitarian as that. Also, I believe many cheats work in teams of one sort or another. Where I agree with Silverking is with a small group of hustlers/gamblers at the top of their game who specialise in collusion and invent gaffs that are often simple, less risky than sleight of hand and profitable to employ. They combine these techniques with true skill at cards for an unbeatable edge. The gaffs will often remain secret for many years and by the time they surface, will be replaced by other secret innovations. 'Playing the flex' for information purposes recently tipped in Steve Forte's Casino Gaming Protection book and explained in more detail by Sal Piacente in his Poker Cheats DVD's is sort of a case in point but is also merely the tip of the iceberg.
This leads to an interesting area of debate around cheating methods that are effective but carry less risk such as collusion play, the use of specialized gaffs for information etc and cheating methods that are more risky and rely on sleight of hand. There is quite a debate to be had about the value of one verses the other and the interaction between the two. Its a fascinating area and one that you can never easily generalise about. Regards, Paul H |
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Paul H Inner circle UK South Coast 1135 Posts |
Looking back over this thread, I guess I am also saying quite firmly that Paul's original staement
'One thing I think everybody realized that the stuff you buy on DVD about crooked gambling is ********. I think there are 5 things which is useable, bottom deal, palming cards, false shuffle, shift and cold deck. The others are good for nothing' is incorrect. If you look carefully at a number of DVD's most notable among them the Piacente Poker Cheats DVD's and the first three vol's of Steve Forte's GPS, there is much information from these sources still in use by hustlers today. The techniques depicted go well beyond the narrow band imposed by the above staement. Regards, Paul H |
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brownitus Loyal user 237 Posts |
This idea of magician vs. real cheat/hustler or ponderance of whether or not the moves are usable in the "real world" isn't that complex IMO. It should be obvious that there are always specialized moves/methods that the real hustlers out there will have for themselves, while certain common ones are tipped and made available to learn. You don't see Copperfield putting out a "YOU TOO CAN VANISH THE STATUE OF LIBERTY VOLUME 1." There's always gotta be something a level above what's commonly available...
And as for the abundance of material and interest in said material for learning this field of moves, well, it's a "cool" thing to know and be able to do in most (especially young males) minds. And if you're a magician with other magician friends, you all know the ACR, twisting the aces, etc. but which of you can pull off silky smoove false deals and bingo bango shuffles and cuts? It's a neat rep to have, and unfortunately easily attainable from laymen who have no idea buddy sucks at the moves, and so the bar is set that those moves performed are what the "real" hustlers do... I myself love gambling sleight of hand and thoroughly enjoy the practice, but I am a very motivated guy in general and enjoy proving to myself I can accomplish something, and the difficulty (and enjoyable effect) of false deals and deck switches and etc. are a good pick for me to work on... to each his own...
"Everything that can be invented has been invented." - Charles H. Duell, US Commissioner of Patents, 1899
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
It is my viewpoint that all of the above post are accurate everyone depending on the situation and should be taken into consideration.
Regarding the statement "One thing I think everybody realized that the stuff you buy on DVD about crooked gambling is *******" is totally wrong. You've seen so much of the stuff that's out there that the stuff doesn't impress you any longer therefore you believe that there's more when actually it's not. Yes there are a few other things that has not been tip but for the most part there is no more. What I believe is going on is that you're looking for the magic in gamblng and we're looking for the money. If a bad or good magician does a show, doesn't he still get paid? Likewise, if a bad or good cheat does what he's suppose to do, shouldn't he get paid? Getting paid is all we're interested in and since our world is a mystery to you magicians, you're giving us more credit than we deserve just like we give ya'll more credit than ya'll deserve. The Secret Is This All the gambling moves that's on the videos are your arsenal and what you can't use to get the money you don't practice nor learn. Now what you need in that arsenal you take for yourself and practice it and learn how to apply it according to the game that you're interested in winning and make you some money. Examples: The Cold Deck is one of the most powerfullest moves in gambling but doesn't mean a thing for a Rummy/Tonk game. Why? Because when they pick up that deck and shuffle it you're playing the next hand regular. The Second Deal The second deal is a great move but what's the exception to the rule? You're always suppose to give the sucker the first card. Why?......... Because the deck could be marked and from that point on you can't cheat the sucker. In gambling the psychology behind the move is the most important but you magicians fail to see that because you're always looking for the spectacular. Ya'll talk about Sal's DVD (which is pretty good) but dismiss Dave Malek's when his has all the psychology behind the moves which are more important to us hustlers than Sal's pretty moves. (I'm a fan of Sal's too) I post controlled dice shots which wins the money but how many of you cared about it, not many: that's why I took the videos down. I guess it wasn't spectacular enough for you....I"ll bet one thing though....take two dice and try to control them making double sixes and see how long you take to do it. No one spoke about my friend who controlled one die but guess what...he came to New York City and won about $80,000 with that technique. I bet no magic show that any of you ever done grossed you that much money in a couple of hours. If you're a magician I understand what you're talking about, but now if you're a hustler, pick out the moves that you need and get the money. Respectfully, Doc P.S. Spectacular to me is coming home with the money.....no matter how sloppy the moves were done. |
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Paul H Inner circle UK South Coast 1135 Posts |
Hi Doc,
Its always great to debate these issues with you. I too am a fan of David Malek. He is an exceptional card handler and his riffle stacking abilites are legendary. I also agree the sections on inter-related scams and splash moves are short but important motivational and choreographic considerations missing from Sal's DVD's. On the other hand Sal covers a much wider area than David Malek and introduces moves that have never been disclosed before. I'm thinking here of the marked and gaffed cards section including 'the flex', 'corner rounding' and his disclosure of 'in strippers' which are actually 'N Strippers' There is also stuff like falsifying the box and scramble and a number of his revelations regarding location play. As an aside I've been using some of Sal's ideas to produce a falsified version of David Malek's shuffling protection recommendations. Its good fun. But coming back to main point, I think you summerise the endevour very clearly, for the hustler it basically comes down to whatever gets the money...period. Regards, Paul H |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
I think that it comes down to the situation more then the ability. A card sharp in a situation while playing cards where he can make cheating happen. Having the ability and then putting yourself into the situation to use that ability are two different things.
Also the card sharp has the NEED to cheat because they have the NEED to eat and make money. Card sharp moves are like learning any other move. That is that a move is useless unless you have a need to do the move. Or for a magician a need to do a move to get that magic effect. That is to use a move or technique in a game or in a show to make something happen that will get an advantage in a game or for the magician entertain an audience. As I said a card sharp may move at the table and get the money and the magician moves in a show and entertains the audience to get the money. Each to his or her own. The rest is publicity and gossip.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
Hey Paul H thanks for writing. Talking about this gets the readers to learn what is not normally taught by magicians when learning a gambling sleight. Make no doubt about it Sal is good in his own right, I can't take anything from that but don't forget Dave was suppose to put out a 3 part series of which he may not do and being to me that his 1st DVD was so informative imagine what would have been on the other two...that's all I was actually saying.
Doc |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
My favorite part of any "crooked gambling" DVD is each guys claim on how he made a 100 year old or older move his OWN.
Yea I keep my pinkey here instead of there so this is my variation. Happens a lot. ONe difference in the magician and gambler is what happens when they miss a move. Personally I played in a LOT of games where you could cheat if you had the nerve. I never ever did. Heck I never thought of it. Not enough guts as I know what would happen in those particular games if I had. I am not nearly as spooked by an audience who at the most may boo or walk out! To me it puts a sense of "urgency" to get it right on the gambler who is in this cricumstance. I personally know few hustlers and many are advantage players. Some like to make sure they have a small advantage all night and grind that advantage away. Others like to make a few or one move for big money. As Glenn has pointed out it is a matter of style, and need. I have never met anyone who can riffle stack during a legit game I was in. BUT I am sure these guys exist. The only guys I have seen riffle stack are the magicians pretending to do gambling moves and we all know what that mess looks like. It would be fun to see it done right for a change.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
I think hustlers understand magicians far better than magicians understand hustlers.
Magicians in general like to think they understand hustling and hustlers, but their real motivation is always to get information from hustlers. Dai Vernon is the perfect example of that drive. I've never really understood why hustlers chat over beers and in forums with magicians. I have a half-baked theory that, because the hustler world is so insulated, a hustler just likes to talk to others interested in the life and times of hustling, all the while not tipping anything they don't want you to know. A typical magician who's interested in hustling will sit for hours listening to hustlers stories. I sat once and had a hustler show me his strike second. I couldn't believe it, my second was 10 times better than his was, I had obviously put years more practice into my strike second. My second is completely invisible, and his was obvious (to me). What was the difference? He could use his crummy second at a card table without flinching, whereas I'd crap my pants at a table at the very thought of using my second to get the money. Somewhere in there lies a lot of truth about the difference between magicians and hustlers. Even though magicians and hustlers hang around each other for completely different reasons, both have proven for decades now that they're really quite taken with each other! |
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Mr. Z Special user 818 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-15 10:28, Dannydoyle wrote: Got a specific example? Quote:
I have never met anyone who can riffle stack during a legit game I was in. BUT I am sure these guys exist. The only guys I have seen riffle stack are the magicians pretending to do gambling moves and we all know what that mess looks like. It would be fun to see it done right for a change. Heh.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
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Paul H Inner circle UK South Coast 1135 Posts |
Hi Doc,
Its a funny thing but as I was writing I began to think about the other two proposed DVD's by David Malek. You are right. If he can follow through with these two projects it will be a pretty amazing series. We will be spoilt for choice. Davids second deal is one of the best I have seen for steering the marked cards when dealing the round and his stud second is just awesome. Let me tell you a story about dealing the round. Recently, I bought a lovely solid oak three in one gaming table, 48" in diameter. It has eight places inlaid in oak round the edge and a spacious baise area for dealing. The actual table is featured here. http://www.luxurygaming.co.uk/gaming/table.jsp I purchased the tiger claw version. The thing is that my practice table has become cluttered with the practice mirror, books, DVD's etc. I admit it, I'm a messy guy and the dealing area has become restricted to the practice mat. In other words, I have become used to dealing down onto the mat and out towards the mirror. When I sat down to this grand poker table with a self satisfied cheesy grin and started dealing the punch....well.. for heavens sake!!! Many cards either flew off the table edge or got stuck half way across, the seconds got stuck half way out of the deck and the sound increased as I struggled for control. It was horrible. I thought I'd forgotten how to feel the punch and I felt like a bad stumble-bum. And that was about three weeks ago. Since then I have been practicing like a ninja to acquire the abiltiy to deal the round accurately and with a good fast paced rhythm. Its going to be a long hard winter this year!! The point here is that false dealing in the round across a largish area is completely and I mean completely different to exhibition dealing down to a small space. I think, as a magician it is sometimes easy to forget this kind of detail even when you have been told as much on the forum. It has certainly been a nasty wakeup call for me and it makes David Maleks mastery of this way of dealing and steering all the more admirable. Its a darned long road is all I can say. Hi Danny, I agree that Glenn's point about need/hunger and style are very important. It is also true that there are a few hustlers who are motivated by ...as Erdnase puts it..'the hazard'. Risk taking can be as attractive to some as it is toxic to others a point Silverking was making so vividly earlier. With regard to riffle stacking, if the requirement is for two cards, say a pair in Texas Hold'em then it is possible to stack in two smooth riffle actions. This application is not so hard to pull off deceptively. Often it is all that is needed to give a profitable edge. Recruit a partner to nullify the cut and receive the stacked hand and the hustle becomes very hard to detect. You never know, you may have been on the recieving end of such moves already without detecting them. Regards, Paul H |
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