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cubreporter New user Las Vegas 69 Posts |
I you have some real money, all issues for HO work (the real deal) can be found at BobKohler magic. This has been in R&D for 20+years, and is a thing of beauty. The PH is great, but if is to be compared to the Kohler/Fitch HO, then I would have to say it is the difference between riding a motorized scooter and driving a Rolls Royce. Just something to consider!
I am whatever I am to you.
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Dan LeFay Inner circle Holland 1371 Posts |
By the way, is anyone already really using the FK Hold-out?
"Things need not have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths, that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." Neil Gaiman |
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Ashkenazi the Pretty Good Veteran user Northern California 366 Posts |
btw, the new site for this effect is http://www.tallerdemagia.com
Are there any downloadable videos demonstrating it anywhere? ATPG
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We could have been practicing! |
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Hmmm I just clicked on the FK Holdout banner ad on the main page of this forum, and it now has a FAQ and stuff that wasn't there before, and a button to actually purchase the holdout lease now.
When I saw Kohler at LVMI, I asked him how his project was going, he said that the DVDs were at the replicators and due back at the end of this month. So I don't think anyone is using it yet Dan, but I would assume people will be pretty soon. Ashkenazi, if you email Antonio Romero (I am pretty sure his email is on his website), I think he will email you back a video clip of him demo'ing his holdout. |
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cubreporter New user Las Vegas 69 Posts |
There are a few of us who have it and are using it right now. The DVD's will be an astounding addition to the learning phase, as I believe it comes with 5 of them (There is allot of material covered). The real beauty of the FKHO is not what is currently done with it, but how it will alter magic in the future. (Mark my words!)
I am whatever I am to you.
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M Pitcher Elite user Around the block 432 Posts |
I received my Fitch Kohler Proffessional Holdout System yesterday , it is very well made , like all the Porper stuff , it comes in a very nice leather wallet ,5 DVD's with almost 6 hours of exercises , , tons of information , tricks
etc . , that is all I can say for now ...awesome |
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Chris S Veteran user 393 Posts |
The Perfect Holdout is absolutely incredible. I have been working with it for about a month and a half now. The applications for it are virtually endless. The quality of the prop is extremely high and will last a lifetime (much higher than I expected for the price actually). This is not puffery - the design is such that there really isn't anything that could go wrong that couldn't be fixed with ease. If you use this for nothing more than the easiest multiple coin vanish you'll ever do, then I can tell you that you won't be disappointed (though I think this would be doing such an amazing tool an incredible disservice!).
Antonio Romero has given the magic community a wonderful utility item. Use a little creativity and you will not only begin to form new routines that simply weren't possibly before, but you will also be able to "clean up" routines that you currently do. This last benefit, for me, is actually the best aspect of the holdout. I cannot praise it highly enough, and considering that you could buy almost 9 Perfect Holdouts for one base-model F/K model, it is an incredible bargain.
May your moral compass guide you true - South West is where the honourable man fare. Pity those who lose their way...
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Of course for even a better bargain you can buy a spool of fishing line, a metal hook, a weight, a small magnet, some felt, and electrical tape, considering you could make 20 or so holdouts for the price of one Romero one. That is unless of course, spending extra money buys extra value...
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Chris S Veteran user 393 Posts |
I am not sure I understand your point, Dan. Other than the fact that you forgot to factor in the main component of the Perfect holdout in your cost analysis, it seems that while it is okay for people to sing highly the praises of the F/K holdout due to its enhanced functionality (which I would never begin to dispute), woe betide anyone who presents another option that compensates for less bells and whistles by being cheaper (actually, vastly cheaper) than the F/K system. They are immediately assailed by people with claims of "yes, but can it do this..." and "but think of the workmanship".
Ultimately, saying that spending extra money confers additional value is a truism in this case - it simply cannot be argued when considered in light of the F/K wonder. Does the additional value add up to the $1600 spread between the items? I can't say. I hazard to suggest that we will never know for sure, since the buyers of the two different models occupy a different socioeconomic class (and even then, a good dose of post-purchase cognitive dissonance would undubtedly play a role). My final contention is this - The Romero holdout offers much more functionality than anything that could be made from the list of ingredients you mentioned (unless you have a machine lathe and intimate knowledge of the ingenius concept by Antonio that affords a "little motion= big motion" response). The F/K holdout in turn offers greater attributes than the Romero holdout. Both offer the potential for marvelous miracles. Sing the praises of the F/K holdout all you will, but please don't refute the fact that just as you can hold the greater functions of the F/K holdout up as a great selling point (and should not be condemned for doing so), so too should those supporting Antonio's not be challenged for presenting the functional ingenuity and remarkably reasonable price of his system as a selling point. Then there's Riser's system...
May your moral compass guide you true - South West is where the honourable man fare. Pity those who lose their way...
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Hey Chris,
My post only addressed your final "bargain" statement, nothing else. Since you ended your post with the statement of a bargain on price, I was singing the praises of the ultimate bargain, that’s all. But then I recounted my statement with, though there may be reason to spend more, if you get some type of value. I chose to use less than the Romero price as a base line to determine "bargain". You used less than the F/K system as your base line to determine "bargain". What is the price of a bargain is relative. I never contended that one could make anything but a rudimentary bargain holdout with those materials. I never inferred that one could make a Romero unit with that list of items, nor inferred one could make a F/K system, or Riser for that matter. I would be forgetting to factor a great laundry list of main components of any of the more expensive holdouts. You obviously do get more value for the Romero unit, thus the price. I said nothing about the F/K unit at all in my previous post or about the difference in price between Romero's unit and the F/K system. That was said by you in your post. I didn't assail you with any claims of bells whistles workmanship of the F/K system either. To be honest, I support your praises of the Romero unit, I have seen one myself and I know for a fact that it is better than using the items I mentioned in my post. I will never condemn you or anyone for using it. I am not a condemning person. I consider myself to be a very reasonable, helpful person and all around "nice guy". I hope my Café posts attest to that, maybe I am delusional, who knows. If you read back through this thread, you will see posts where I point people to Romero's website, and advise people to email him for video clips of his performances. Nothing disparaging. Please read my post again it was very straight forward. It only two points: 1. The “better bargain on price”. 2. Bargain may not always be best. (Which actually supports your post). Nothing more, nothing less. |
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M Pitcher Elite user Around the block 432 Posts |
I wrote some days ago :
"I received my Fitch Kohler Proffessional Holdout System yesterday , it is very well made , like all the Porper stuff , it comes in a very nice leather wallet..." Thomas wrote me this message Peter, I'm pleased that you like the holsout system; it was a long time in the making. FYI, Joe porper DOES make the case for the system. However, the entire system is manufactured by me; in fact, I even DESIGNED the case that Porper makes for us. Again, thanks for the kind words about the system. Along with several "beta testers" I've been working with it for over a year now and it has brought my own magic up to an entirely new level. You currently have an advantage over me, though, since I haven't received the DVDs yet (soon, I expect). Regards, Thomas Wayne Sorry Thomas , keep on going with the good work !!! |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Now that a long time has passed since the newness has had a chance to wear off, does anyone that has actually used it care to share their experiences?
Maybe discribe an effect you have actually used with the hold out and how it has made you performance better. Anyone wear it every day like the originator? Bill Addition: I can't believe with all the hype in this string, noone is still using this. I guess everyone moved onto the next new thing. Bill |
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mdspark Special user 784 Posts |
Bill,
If you are referring to the F/K Holdout, I too am curious about the same issues as you are. But, perhaps, the new owners are afraid of being sued if even a peep comes out of their mouth about it.. The impression was given that as long as they were totally silent about it....NO ONE would know they were even using it!!! If we hear nothing more about it...I am incline to agree with you. Just my opinion. |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
There you go trying to inflame the holdout issue.
I know of at least 12 people who use the holdout regularly and all are happy to talk about it, but most have better things to do than talk about it to a bunch of stangers on the internet. After all what good comes of talking about it to people who cannot help them improve. Unless you have the device, you really have nothing to add to the discussion. As I understand it, mdspark, you do not have the device. The idea of being sued is just ridiculous and I can see no reason for your making it other than as a thinly veiled insult to Kohler and his desire to try to protect at least one product out there in the world. Microsoft will not sue you for talking about using windows, and in both cases you lease the product. However you cannot reverse engineer windoes and sell it as your own, likewise with the Kohler product. So, to solve your paradox, why would owners want to talk about it? If we did we might encourage others to get it and why would we want others to have the same tools we have. Most of us covet our magical resources and are happy not everyone has the same tools at their disposal. Another reason is that the people who have made that investment, by and large, are not those that frequent this forum. Many of them in fact find this open forum to be the opposite of that which magic strives for. Also, many are working professionals who simply do not care what others think. I feel the need to come on here and correct downright untruthful statements that get bandied around carelessly and try to clear up the negative aspersions those with other agendas feel required to make. It's a thankless job, but as long as stupid things are said, I will be here to clear things up for the rest of us. |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Mdspark & truthteller,
Sorry to disappoint you, but this thread is about the Perfect Holdout, I really don't care about a $2000 module holdout. I have no interest in F/K holdout. It may be great, but I am just not interested. I want a working mans holdout, like perfect. He used and developed it. I am interested in $200 egg vanisher not a $2000 one. I use to own the original Jack Miller/Tannen sold in the late 1960's and early 1970's. I also looked at the $50 version of the perfect HO by the same inventor. I wanted to know if it was the same thing, only you get a tape to assist you in the development. Also, I really wanted to know if everyone just put it in a drawer and forgot about it, or are as Jack Miller did, actually wear and use it on a regular basis. Any care to share a story about using this third hand? Bill |
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Wmhegbli
Unless you are working every day and are wearing a jacket, you are not going to use it all the time. If you are not performing regularly, or don't wear a jacket regularly, I would assume any HO will end up in a drawer more than in use. As for what the Romero Holdout is, he fully details it at http://www.tallerdemagia.com I do not think the Romero holdout has ever been available for $50 (but then again the first time I was ever made aware of it was with its recent release) - Vernet's "Invisible Hand" which is a modified Miller holdout is avialable for that $50 price tag. The above website also shows a drawing of the Vernet holdout as well. After visiting that page you will know if that is what you have already or not. If you used to use one in the 60's and 70's, did you regularly use it, or did it end up in a drawer? If it did end up in a drawer, ask yourself why, has anything changed now that will keep it in your jacket? That is probably a more important question then asking others if it ended up in their drawer. Everyone is different and have different circumstances. Since your profile says that your occupation is a Magician and you like stage magic and manipulation, I would assume you wear a jacket often, and would make use of such a device. So that answer is probably answered already. BTW - You can't vanish an egg with the Romero holdout unless you modify the egg to make it stick to a magnet, or make some time of egg holder to attach to a magnet. |
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mdspark Special user 784 Posts |
I thought my remarks might liven up this thread again......
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Dan,
I read a bit of "attitude" in your write up. What is your problem! But to answer you question, yes I wear a jacket all the time, sport and casual. If it get to 90 plus degrees I take it off. That is the problem today is poor dress with people. Back in the 60's I was in banking and did attempt to use the original regularly and many others that I enjoyed to carry with me. Thanks for the info, so to pose my question. Is the Invisible hand the same as the Perfect Holdout with only added feature like the tape and a magnet gimmick? Having a magnet around computers is not good you know, I am sure. And yes people get "Hooked" on certain things, the last person to re-vive and old "tool" was Michael Ammar with "Topit". Sewing it in all his jackets. I have the original of this from England, Davenports. Lastly, I did go to your suggested site and found nothing but some things that were copied to this string. I would like to hear from anyone who is mastering this utility device. Relating any experiences they have encoutered where they feel the holdout created something unusual for them. Bill |
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-02-05 05:40, wmhegbli wrote: Bill, I was honestly trying to answer your questions. I just re-read my post and I don't see how you can infer I have a bit of attitude - I truly do not, other than an attitude of sincerely trying to help. I really try to be a helpful person, I have a website that's primary goal is helping people with coin magic... but I digress... Let my try to quickly paraphrase the intent of my posts: 1. People who don't perform regularly or wear jackets typically won't use it. (I also agree with your below assessment of poor dress of people) this is probably the biggest hindrance to those who's performance wear is a T-shirt and jeans worn down at the knees. 2. The second paragraph was intended to help you ascertain the difference between the Romero holdout and the Vernet one. Your original post as written seemed to indicate that Romero also had a $50 version. I just took a guess you meant the Vernet version. Your subsequent post seems to clarify that. As for the web page – read this one specifically. It shows pictures and fully explains the Romero holdout. Also read specifically this one. This page shows the history of the holdouts leading up to Romero’s. After viewing both of those pages (which have pictures as well so you can see the differences) you will be able to see the exact differences. Answering your question directly, the major difference with the Romero unit is the addition of a differential pulley to change the ratio of opposite arm movement needed to move the business end of the holdout. The other major difference is that his end is a magnet in a little bag, not a clothespin type gripper with a fishing weight. 3. I am honest in asking my question regarding your prior usage and if you stopped using it. If you did use one, and then stopped using it, I was sincerely asking why. This would provide insights into if you would use the Romero version. In your above subsequent post you said that in the 60’s you used it regularly and enjoyed carrying it. I am still curious as to why you stopped using it, if that is the case. 4. I then looked at your profile and it provided me some context to your probable usage. To me this means, you wear a jacket, and could benefit from such a device. In my mind this information is more valuable than the opinion of someone else who may not wear jackets or perform regularly. 5. My last paragraph was honestly to let you know you can’t vanish an egg with the Romero unit as is. Your prior post seemed to suggest that was your intended use in looking for an egg vanisher. As for hearing from someone who is mastering the Romero holdout, here I have to bail out. I am not one who is experienced in the actual usage of the device. I hope I have continued to help, that is my honest reason for posting. Very Sincerely, Dan |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Dan,
Thanks for your comments, I was under the understand that Romero and Vernet were partners and assumed (maybe wrongly) that as business partners they would share the sale of merchandise. That is why I was wondering if the Perfect Holdout was an improvement over the Invisible Hand that also included a book by Romero. The book is really worthless, that is included with the Invisible Hand, but it does come with 2 gimmicks. Why did I discontinue the use of the original? Not that it is matter with this topic, but life moves on. Now, I still would like to hear any stories that someone has after using the Invisible Hand for a year. Bill |
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