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jondark445 Special user 716 Posts |
I'm skimming this thread because I have to run out the door...but I read the original post by Justin and I have to agree with it whole heartedly. I love this thread, and can't wait to read more of it.
Now...if we could just get those inexperienced, doltish adults who insist that they're accomplished enough to release lecture notes and dvds to stop...well...then we'd actually be getting somewhere.... <big grin> --Jon |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Calvin is a magician.....they all tell lies.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Blah blah blah 16 year olds
ha ha ha probably has beens 12 year olds rule! (the stories about eight year old flourishers are just rumors, that kid was 12 but real short - ringer!) as you can see, getting ageist about the issue is not the answer.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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michaelmystic2003 Inner circle 3062 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-10-29 16:10, Magic_Steve wrote: Oh yeah! And, by the looks of the demo, people will not be happy with this effect.
Learn more about my upcoming book of close up magic and theory SYNTHESIS & SECRETS: A Magic Book in Four Acts: https://www.michaelkrasworks.com/synthesis-secrets
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kosmoshiva Loyal user Canada 255 Posts |
You're only young once ... but you can be immature for ever
;)
Don't forget to breathe.
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JRob Veteran user Central South Carolina 395 Posts |
Some people are just gluttons for punishment. Then again, no publicity is bad publicity.
"Jim Roberts, AKA: Professor Jay Rob "<br>
The Professor's Facebook Page |
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jimbowmanjr Veteran user Inside the Bottle 320 Posts |
Sweet....always feels good to hang a young teenage kid out to dry. Can we take turns punching him in the gut and stealing his lunch money throughout the week too?
I struggled with this all day and my heart tells me that it was a pretty poor choice to use Calvin as an example for any of this discussion. I have talked to him frequently since we met at Twin City and every single bone in my body tells me the last thing this kid wants is fame and fortune. If anything he wants the respect of his peers and those whom he looks up to in this art. Seems there are two extremes at work here. The one side releasing everything and anything under the sun and the other side screaming with torches and pitchforks to keep the kids out of the pool during adult swim. While I might agree that seasoned pro's might have more to offer on average, I am more likely to err on the side of the argument showing the great child prodigies that might be overlooked by such sweeping statements that alienate a particular demographic. Right train....wrong track. --Jim |
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Steven Leung Inner circle found the Magic Rainbow after 1614 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-10-29 16:10, Magic_Steve wrote: Defintely, he is a liar... such garbage even damage the overheads of all bricks and mortar shop (on-line shops too!) I had enough loss on buying garbage props for my magic shop, I will pass this one! Wosrt of all, he flashed at the end of the preview performance... LOL!
Most memorable moment - with Maestro Juan Tamariz & Consuelo Lorgia in FISM Busan 2018.
"Being fooled by a trick doesn't always mean they are having a good time" - Homer Liwag https://hhpresents.com/ https://www.glitchstudiohk.com/ |
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
Don't buy **** unless I know it's good.... If you don't buy crap, one day they may decide to not sell crap. Don't buy anything from old guys or young guys you've never gotten a review about, perhaps ask the poor sucker who did buy it.
I wouldn't be bustin Calvins balls over this though, he's doing what we pay him to do after all. Even if we whine about it afterwards. I wouldn't point at the young folk, except that (Around here at least) they do seem to be the loudest promoters and developers of garbage... Regardless, don't buy anything that is hot, new, fresh, novel, original, new, inventive, innovative, creative etcetera. Problem solved.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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MDew Regular user Sydney, Australia 125 Posts |
This is just my two cents.
I largely agree with Justin Miller on his point about ego, inexperience, arrogance and how it can really blur your perception of what is the reality of the market for magic lectures and DVDs today. But the age factor is where Justin had gone amiss, and IMO this was the reason why. The real issue here is not about age, it is about experience. Coincidentally, it was so very convenient to talk about age groups because IMO there is a very very high correlation between age and experience. I could just feel all that anger let out in his words that had boiled up inside him for months, if not years. IMO when Justin was pouring his heart and soul and anger into this rather passionate article, the concept that young age = lack in experience = poor quality magic material had overcome him and, out of his passion, failed to recognise the distinction. But there is also the issue about the influences behind young people releasing apparently 'ground-breaking' stuff. I think back to Ellusionist and how their marketing schemes had presented an image that magic is easy-to-master and easy to make money from. Ellusionist gave the opportunity for their consumers (and it just so happens to be young people) to 'create' their own magic, send it to Ellusionist and make some money out of it. Think back to Mercury, Revolution, King Rising, Axis Change (*vomits*) - The combining factors of "I enjoy performing magic" PLUS "Hey, if this kid has created this cool trick, why can't I?" PLUS "Wow! I can make money from what I enjoy doing?" is simply overwhelming for a lot of teenagers. I simply cannot remember the number of times on various magic forums of posts that said something along the lines of, "I've created a new trick! I think its so kool? Should I send it to E?". THAT is what really really bugs me, and that is IMO the crux of what Justin is trying to hammer through to us, through all the frenzy. I'm simply saying that this frenzy of 'I'm young and I want to sell my effects' is a consequence of the marketing scams of Ellusionist, Penguin, and and exploiting the entire concept of making magic = business. It's a real shame, but we have to deal with it somehow. I wouldn't necessarily say its the young people's fault. In light of this, It is BECAUSE teenagers are ON AVERAGE less mature than adults are that such consequences like comes to no surprise, even to the extend that such consequences are expected. But then again, it is up to the magic community to respond to such things, otherwise magic as a whole cannot improve. Although some of what Justin said was a little bit uncalled for (IMO because of his unbridled passion and anger), I give him full credit for issuing this article and expressing his heart-felt feelings in the first place. Someone had to cast the first stone. And for that, I give Justin my full respect. Justin, thank you for bringing up this topic. Yes, this has started this controversy, but it will serve as the platform for further debate and discussion on how to deal with the plight that faces the magic lecture and DVD market today. Quote:
On 2007-10-30 00:54, Josh Riel wrote: In works very nicely in theory, but as a self-working mechanism that operates under the theory of market forces, IMO it is very unwieldy. It assumes that consumers are willing to critique all their products and that there is no lack of information flows between all parties involved. But this doesn't always conform to reality. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-10-29 23:02, jimbowmanjr wrote:...Seems there are two extremes at work here. The one side releasing everything and anything under the sun and the other side screaming with torches and pitchforks to keep the kids out of the pool during adult swim.... It's not about "adult swim" so much as offering time tested material to those who are looking to modularly add things to their shows. But when the market has many who seek shortcuts and who wish to do some version of the latest trick - and would buy items of questionable provenance - that we get a storefront filled with packages offering more style than substance. While style is a matter of personal taste, IMHO substance, the "how do you know that/when/who/where" is a matter of practical necessity. If you really want to have a chance of using a work, learning from it and integrating it into your shows you probably do need to the section of the market which offers works by those who have put in the effort.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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matthew leatherbarrow Loyal user 240 Posts |
This is taken from a recent post to my blog (http://in-magic.livejournal.com/).
Here’s the dilemma. Since there is enough magic in say, Mark Wilson’s Course in Magic, to last a performer a lifetime; why invent and release more magic? If you throw in J.B. Bobo’s Modern Coin Magic and Royal Road to Card Magic there is quite literally nothing more needed. You could put together a brilliant routine, or just learn a few tricks that would, to borrow and oft-used phrase, be ‘killer’. So I ask again, why release more magic? Let’s deal with the ‘nasties’ first – ego and money. These are the first two explanations people will present for the release of new magic. I’ve personally always found the idea of ‘ego’ perplexing, not least because it is assimilate with words like ‘fame’ or ‘celebrity’. If the accusation was one about wanting people to own your work, or perform your effect I could perhaps understand – it’s quite a privilege to know someone across the world is performing one of my effects, or that something I created at sixteen years old is sold in France. But these things are not automatic; you could release an effect that doesn’t have a market. If you are after fame, well go on TV and have sex with a goat – then you’ll be famous. Releasing a magic trick is not the route to fame; I find it hard to believe anyone considers releasing one for such reasons either. Now the money or ‘quick buck’ as I’ve heard it called. As I’ve document in my first post, there isn’t that much money to be made – at least not on the scale I operate. Once you factor in webhosting, web design, prototypes, booklet printing, prop manufacture and then cost your time – magic creation isn’t the money spinner some would suggest. Since this isn’t my career, it’s what I would call a ‘Project*’, I don’t mind the limited return. I’m not really sure why I decided to try and get my first trick published. I don’t remember having any cynical thoughts “if they can do it, so can I”, I think part of it was ‘just to see if I could’; part of it was for validation ‘how good is my creative ability?’ Some might say that sort of thing should come from joining a magic club, but those places always scared me, and the closest one was too far away. This was all when I was young, before I knew of the dilemma. Now that I do know, why am I still flogging two tricks on a website? If it’s not already obvious, I don’t think there is a dilemma at all – at least not for the vast majority of the magic community. There are so many love songs, war films, police dramas, produced and released every day, week, month, year. The result, choice! Why should magic be any different? The more choice you have the better, surely? Now, I can hear the grumbles from miles away, “how do you know something is new?” This is the last argument held against people (especially younger people) who produce magic. Of course I agree it’s important to know where an effect sits in the greater picture, but this is a problem that magic perpetuates itself. In an industry based on secrets it is hardly surprising that people will create something without realising someone else also had similar thoughts. If the casualty of an insane amount of choice is the odd conflict or grumble – I say it’s worth it. *Some ‘names’ call every bloody trick they release a ‘project’ so I think I can borrow the word for my, um, project. NEXT WEEK: Behind the Scenes of… Customer Copy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-10-30 07:42, Jonathan Townsend wrote: That brings up an interesting point. Are they looking for "performance material"? Or do they just want to be the first person on the block - or in the club that knows the secret? Having been involved with three family magic shops I would have to say that there is a difference in the kind of magic tricks a "performing magician" will buy to add to his act. And the kind of magic a hobby magician might buy. Ken Brooks talked about this once on an audio tape. There is a lot of magic that is made that are not really "performance magic tricks". It is good to know the difference and know what kind of magic that will fit into your program. If you are a performer that is. If you are not a performer - well then enjoy the hobby. If you want to be a performer I suggest you read Tarbell. Just my opinion.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Justin N. Miller Inner circle 2457 Posts |
Most of you guys are missing the entire point of my essay. I NEVER SAID age was a factor in the essay what I said was was this. THE MAJORITY OF "new material" recently has been put out by THAT AGE BRACKETT 11-21 yr olds..and guess what THE MAJORITY HAS BEEN JUNK AND STOLEN ITEMS OR LACK OF PROPER CREDIT! PERIOD! I never said that within that age nobody can create anything just that they should think twice beofre saying "I have lecture notes out now" what could you possibly teach us in a lecture at your age. THAT IS WHERE THE AGE THING COMES IN..WRITING LECTURE NOTES. Face it there are REASONS we have laws that prohibit a certain age group from getting their drivers license. There is a reason that we stop MINORS at the front door of a bar or night club..because "we want to push the younger generation down" or because we are "scarred of this generation and how it could affect us " (that was my favorite)" NO, because THERE IS AN AGE OF ACCOUTABILITY that is in this world. Can young poeple create? Are you kidding me? I was young once to. I would NEVER hinder the creative proccess of our youth.
I draw the line at lectures and marketing yourself as a magic guru at that young an age. BOTTOM line is you do not have ENOUGH LIFE EXPERIANCE TO LECTURE YET..and here is why (are you ready for this it is a doozy) YOUR NOT OLD ENOUGH YET. So stop trying to sneak in the front door of this wonderful art and acting like your fake id is somewhat more amazing and realistic than anyone elses at your age..bottom line is IT'S STILL FAKE and just do what eveyone else has done wait for your age to catch up with your desire and passion. So to re-cap: Can youth create? YES YES YES Can youth put out material YES( But ONLY with proper research and accountability over a period of yrs..pay your dues) SHOULD YOUTH PUT OUT DVDS AND SUCH at an early age..Only if the above has been followed and accountabbility is in order. CAN YOUTH LECTURE..NO! Becuase all the above should be in a proper place of at least 10-11 yrs BEFORE Any kind of REAL SUBSTANCE takes root. And no one has hung Calvin out to dry. I did averything in his best good. So if you think it was cheap shot I am here to tell you you are WRONG! Justin N. Miller and Alex to answer your question..yes I AM A MASTER at what I do. I am not saying I am better than any one person but concerning my craft and art I am a master and I have worked very hard to make it that way. |
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Bill Thompson Elite user Mississippi 422 Posts |
I agree with you Justin on your original point. Here is where things went off track... here is a quote from your original post:
Quote:
On 2007-10-27 22:07, Justin N. Miller wrote: Then when the kitchen starts getting hot, you act like you weren't expecting it? Let what you originally wrote stand on it's own and let people debate the issue. Ignore the ad hominem attacks, they only show that the poster can't argue the point so he makes personal attacks. Point is you knew when you posted that it would generate these responses.
"To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment.
Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven." - Chuang Tse |
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Al Angello Eternal Order Collegeville, Pa. USA 11045 Posts |
Isn't the SYM where the kids are supposed to play?
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/ "Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone" |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-10-30 08:24, matthew leatherbarrow wrote...Let’s deal with the ‘nasties’ first – ego and money. These are the first two explanations people will present for the release of new magic... Really? How about "that stuff looks awkward and this stuff seems not only to work today but probably will be of use to others" as a first reason. Then we get to the "holy cow this thing actually worked and maybe others would enjoy exploring it too" reasons. Notice the emphasis on things which have worked in performance, proved themselves useful to the person making the offer and vetted by the publisher and peers to ensure the work can function as proffered.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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jimbowmanjr Veteran user Inside the Bottle 320 Posts |
Tommy....sorry man your sarcasm was totally lost on me. Bill filled me in and I am off to get another cup of coffee =)
--Jim |
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KyletheGreat Special user Georgia 560 Posts |
Now, Now Justin...I am 19 ...you might remember me from the Twin City Convention...I was actuallly just called to be an emcee in the next one...anyways...I have been working on lecture notes...but not on "CREATIVE NEW TRICKS". Mine are more about comedy magic and "what is funny" vs "what isn't" and the proper use of audience members in a comedy routine. The notes have a few of my twists and modifications on older tricks...but I only call one actual effect "my own"
Are you saying that since I am 19, that I have no reason to make these notes and continue forming my lecture? You said than anyone under 21 has no reason to make a lecture or notes/dvds simply because they haven't had enough experience... I think you should have said MOST people under the age 21...I believe there are several exceptions. I am usually pretty modest, but I do believe I have enough experience to back up my plans... |
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Jerico New user Las Vegas 54 Posts |
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Hey I am 16 and I am putting out Lecture notes and a DVD...Cool huh? I think although perhaps well meant, the tag line is enough to irritate most even-thinking people. Justin, you made very one sided, attacking remarks and you got attacking remarks back and have retorted just as passionately. You are indeed older and should no better. Stand by your statements and let them speak for themselves. You knew this would happen so just let it happen and don't act like you're a being unfairly attacked. That being said, my point in my post is that while a young magician would have to be pretty amazing to prompt my attendance at a lecture, it is an open market. I doubt that most people even attend these lectures and if they do, then perhaps you should be speaking to them and not the young people giving lectures. In short, who is buying all this young, inexperienced material? I would venture to guess it is mostly those of the same age group. So let them have it. I guess I'd just like to know what you are really arguing. Is it that young people lecturing, releasing DVDs etc. is bad for magic, diluting the market, or just somehow fundamentally wrong? I am not fond of the vast majority of the effects and lectures on the market today, so I don't pay for them. If you think it is all substanceless fluff, don't buy it and it will go away. Why is this such a big deal? I would also like to add that I think many of the young people today are releasing their material in lecture and DVD form because it is one of the few ways we have for establishing creative credit for ideas. They may not be old enough to know how much worth their idea really has, but it's no wonder that they are afraid of not getting credit in the back-stabbing world they find themselves in and think it is the only way not to lose credit for their work. Only time will tell if their ideas are really worth anything or not, but can you really blame them for wanting to try? Jerico |
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