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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » "Kayfabe" Pro Wrestling and the Prestige (14 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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CAROLINI
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Don't understand the connection with pro wrestling but I can assure you that in addition to being in superb physical condition and being excellent athletes and actors (notice how mant have gone directly in to movie stardom) pro wrestlers are excellent performers as evidenced by the fact that they "play" to a full house virtually 7 nights a week. Would that all mentalists could say the same for their performances.
Terry Holley
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I think I just figured it out!

I had been thinking H.O.A.X. instead of the way it is really spelled on Jim's avatar (H.O.A-X)

I did a little more thinking and believe that I finally came up with what it means.

Hands
Off
Aqua-Keet
Xavier

If you need to be refreshed or you don't understand, see

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=23

It looks like Jim/Jack added the H.O.A-X after that episode, so that helps me feel pretty secure in my conclusion.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Slim King
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Quote:
On 2007-11-24 15:07, CAROLINI wrote:
Don't understand the connection with pro wrestling but I can assure you that in addition to being in superb physical condition and being excellent athletes and actors (notice how mant have gone directly in to movie stardom) pro wrestlers are excellent performers as evidenced by the fact that they "play" to a full house virtually 7 nights a week. Would that all mentalists could say the same for their performances.


That is exactly my POINT!!!!!!
Mentalist should pattern their careers after these guys..They are doing it RIGHT....That's what I'm saying!
If some one calis them fake..LOOK OUT!!!!!!
And see what they have in return? Success!
They have a huge following.......Kayfabe..A lesson to be learned by many and a lesson already in practice by others Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
modernmindreader
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As I was watching a $40 wrestling pay per view that a friend bought, I was thinking the same thing Slim!

While I don't consider myself to be a "fan" in the traditional sense... I have gotten a kick out of the storylines and fake drama since I was a young boy.

I was sitting there wondering how many thousands of PPV purchases that they had sold that night.. I was admiring the crowd in the auditorium that was so massively packed you could not see one empty seat in the house. All excited about the bloody "H3ll in a cell" match.

I even thought about that character in the Prestige you mentioned Slim. How he lives his act... just like these wrestlers. Dare I say similar practices are used in Nascar??? ahaha

Kayfabe... A lesson all modern mystery workers could learn from. Imagine for a moment if the Undertaker came on and said "what you are about to see is just choreographed and prestaged drama designed to replicate a modern day gladiator match."

They don't do that do they? Real people still know daggum well that it is fake. These guys have enough respect for their fans to keep the illusion going to make the most of the entertainment value. People are not as stupid as many magicians and skeptics think they are...

But look at those packed houses guys... show after show after show after show... These people know the value of BEING their character. Living the character is the key to the whole entertainment empire. They have no "wrestlers guilt" built into themselves like many magicians suffer from the "magicians guilt." They LIVE their character and consistently sellout nearly every auditorium they perform in.

Here is a Wiki for those who think this term and concept are made up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayfabe

Thankfully I don't have to resort to such silly things as I really can read minds, demonstrate PK, rip holes in thunderstorms with my thoughts, get true glimpses into the future and sense the presence of the deceased.

Seriously guys... people don't want you to rub in their faces how much smarter you are then they are with your tricks an pompous attitude. Give them what they want... entertainment and wonder... mystery... a truly involved dramatic moment they can remember and cherish for the rest of their lives. Do NOT insult them by explaining that you really can't saw a lady in half and that it is just an illusion. No $hi7 sherlock...Give them the gift of deciding for themselves what they have witnessed.

Kudos to Slim for bringing this term to light. While I was aware of the structure I did not know there was a name for it.

I think it is time for a turning point in the mystery arts. The magician today is so out of touch with their audience they have almost become an exclusive club among themselves. Living to flaunt their superior trickery, self righteous morality and impress other magi.

Is this the basis of the Callahan Vs. Angel stink?

Has Randi been knowingly practicing Kayfabe for as long as Geller?

Something to think about! Smile
~Jason Profit
Make up your OWN mind...
psychicturtle
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It's a very interesting point that Slim makes, and it does apply to various wrestlers, but it must be said that the majority of Pro-wrestlers do not remain in character outside of the show arena.
The Sandman may have done (during the ECW 'sabu blinding' incident'), but Undertaker, in the street, is called Mark. He doesn't wear a black fedora, and he doesn't have his eyes rolling in to the back of his head. He's actually a really nice friendly guy. He is not in chracter when he is not in the arena. This applies to 90% of pro-wrestlers that have a 'gimmick'.

In truth, the word 'kayfabe' only really refers to in-arena situations. 'Breaking kayfabe' is something that only ever happens when a wrestler breaks character during a show (like when Terry Funk ran into the cell after Mankind got thrown through it. They were supposed to be enemies, but it was such a serious situation that Terry broke character to see if he was ok).

I discussed this with some of the more well known guys, we got into Jeff McBrides whole 'magician 24/7' theory. We decided that it wasn't for us, and by that, we meant that it is ok to say 'no, I am not performing tonight' if you don't feel like doing anything. Jeff will ALWAYS say yes. He never breaks character in public.

Also, pro-wrestling is NOT as 'fake' as you may think it is. THAT is why wrestlers get very angry when someone calls it fake. These guys are fitter, stronger, and tougher than you may think. When they bleed, the blood is real. Those chairs they hit each other with? Real. Being picked up and slammed onto your back from 6 feet up is real. It hurts - alot. That mat is not foam, you know. It's wood.
There are broken bones, torn muscles, concussions, stitches and the like all the time. It is a very dangerous activity. It may be staged, yes, but that is different to being 'fake'.

As for the storylines, they are a strange mix of reality and fiction. Feuds are more often real as opposed to just story.

And we can not get into that whole 'they don't announce that it is all a drama show before they start, so why should we?' argument as it makes no sense.
If you watch a movie, you know the parts are 'played' by actors, as it tells you in the credits. That is the disclaimer in a movie (it's on the poster, and the dvd box too). Same with a play. There is a cast list. The WWE is never advertised as real, we know it's drama. Vince McMahon even recently reffered to 'my character Mr.McMahon' when they had to drop a story recently. MOST people know it is mostly an act.

If you do a show advertised with 'mindreader played by ...........' then you need no disclaimer, and can pretend you are real, talking to the dead, whatever you want - and it is OK, as everyone knows or has been told at least, that you are playing a part.

If you do not say that you are playing a part, and especially if you use your real name, you are in the realms of people not knowing if what they are watching is real or not. Personally I like people to know that I am not a psychic, and that I use other means to achieve the results I get. People still think I am psychic (who knows what would happen if I didn't tell them I was not psychic!!!), so letting them decide for themselves isn't always the best thing...but my conscience can rest easy knowing that I have told the truth about who and what I am.

If they want to believe I am psychic after I have specifically told them that I am not, there is nothing I can do about that.
Hoff Man
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Say what you will about Pro Wrestling, but as a production of sport, spectacle and theatre, few forms of entertainment can match the track record of consistently delivering what it promises it will … both in and out of the ring.

I think that’s unique.

Steve
Slim King
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Quote:
On 2007-11-24 18:57, modernmindreader wrote:
As I was watching a $40 wrestling pay per view that a friend bought, I was thinking the same thing Slim!

While I don't consider myself to be a "fan" in the traditional sense... I have gotten a kick out of the storylines and fake drama since I was a young boy.

I was sitting there wondering how many thousands of PPV purchases that they had sold that night.. I was admiring the crowd in the auditorium that was so massively packed you could not see one empty seat in the house. All excited about the bloody "H3ll in a cell" match.

I even thought about that character in the Prestige you mentioned Slim. How he lives his act... just like these wrestlers. Dare I say similar practices are used in Nascar??? ahaha

Kayfabe... A lesson all modern mystery workers could learn from. Imagine for a moment if the Undertaker came on and said "what you are about to see is just choreographed and prestaged drama designed to replicate a modern day gladiator match."

They don't do that do they? Real people still know daggum well that it is fake. These guys have enough respect for their fans to keep the illusion going to make the most of the entertainment value. People are not as stupid as many magicians and skeptics think they are...

But look at those packed houses guys... show after show after show after show... These people know the value of BEING their character. Living the character is the key to the whole entertainment empire. They have no "wrestlers guilt" built into themselves like many magicians suffer from the "magicians guilt." They LIVE their character and consistently sellout nearly every auditorium they perform in.

Here is a Wiki for those who think this term and concept are made up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayfabe

Thankfully I don't have to resort to such silly things as I really can read minds, demonstrate PK, rip holes in thunderstorms with my thoughts, get true glimpses into the future and sense the presence of the deceased.

Seriously guys... people don't want you to rub in their faces how much smarter you are then they are with your tricks an pompous attitude. Give them what they want... entertainment and wonder... mystery... a truly involved dramatic moment they can remember and cherish for the rest of their lives. Do NOT insult them by explaining that you really can't saw a lady in half and that it is just an illusion. No $hi7 sherlock...Give them the gift of deciding for themselves what they have witnessed.

Kudos to Slim for bringing this term to light. While I was aware of the structure I did not know there was a name for it.

I think it is time for a turning point in the mystery arts. The magician today is so out of touch with their audience they have almost become an exclusive club among themselves. Living to flaunt their superior trickery, self righteous morality and impress other magi.

Is this the basis of the Callahan Vs. Angel stink?

Has Randi been knowingly practicing Kayfabe for as long as Geller?

Something to think about! Smile


I love your post!
If we adapted their techniques of advertising and performance, the mentalism community might be much stronger. So a Mental Wizard competition might be a GOOD IDEA if presented properly...Not as Phenomenon, but as something more akin to Sports Entertainment.

Of course, in responce to the last post, wrestlers may not carry coffins around with them or put on heavy makeup but they DO stick with the storyline of wrestling being real...And that's what's made them great. The old timers in wrestling don't like it if the new dudes break with Kayfabe. I understand why.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
DT3
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The origin of "kayfabe" is from carny lingo and is thought to perhaps be a derivative of the pig Latin word for fake.

Another theory is that it came from the name Kay Fabian. Travelling carnies would use this name this way: in order to let the folks back home know that they safely made it to the next town, they would call home collect, giving the name Kay Fabian as a signal. The family member on the other end would deny the call, as the message had been received.

Slim I really freaked out when I saw this topic. Despite being a big wrestling fan in my childhood, I have never heard of this word until last night. I read everything I could find about it, happy that I had a new vocab word. Then this morning I come onto the Café to see you have incorporated the word into a topic title...WILD MAN! WILD!

D.
psychicturtle
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Hey Slim, I agree with what you say there, the story lines are usually acted beyond the arenas (as in feuding wrestlers not being seen having lunch together). But the being in character thing isn't that big a deal these days with it.

For those that haven't already read it, here is what Max Maven said about our audiences and pro-wrestling audiences:
We have the same audience make up. Some believe it is all real, some believe it is all fake, and some think it's a bit of both.
Slim King
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Quote:
On 2007-11-25 13:46, Don Theo III wrote:
The origin of "kayfabe" is from carny lingo and is thought to perhaps be a derivative of the pig Latin word for fake.

Another theory is that it came from the name Kay Fabian. Travelling carnies would use this name this way: in order to let the folks back home know that they safely made it to the next town, they would call home collect, giving the name Kay Fabian as a signal. The family member on the other end would deny the call, as the message had been received.

Slim I really freaked out when I saw this topic. Despite being a big wrestling fan in my childhood, I have never heard of this word until last night. I read everything I could find about it, happy that I had a new vocab word. Then this morning I come onto the Café to see you have incorporated the word into a topic title...WILD MAN! WILD!

D.


Cosmic!!!!! Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
erlandish
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Aw jeez. After being reminded of this from browsing tvtropes.org, I brought this up in another mentalism-related discussion elsewhere a couple of days ago and I thought I'd come up with a profound parallel. Turns out I got beaten by slim. Shoot.
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Slim King
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Just means it's time for a change..if it's not too late. Smile
great Minds.... Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Hoff Man
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Slim,

Roshambo performed as a cage match might work.

Blindfolded mentalists wielding chainsaws and nail guns would be a hit with the ladies.

Steve
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I have to say that when I think on my fav conversations with Max Maven, they were more often about Pro Wrestling than magic.
Slim King
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I'm hoping to get some wrestler to talk to me about this tomorrow before the TNA taping. (Might not happen with the wrestlers themselves since they may be practicing it, KAFABE,, but there are others around who may be in the know) I may be a week off but if not I'll try to gain some insight into why Wrestling is a billion dollar industry and we Mentalists can't quite figure it out Smile
There is a great interview with Al Mann on things like this and I think you can get it as a downloadable MP3 from Lybrary. After getting bashed by the Disclaimer Crowd I always try to re-focus with his thoughts.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Tony Iacoviello
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Slim

Ignore they disclaimer crowd, they don't pay your bills. Smile

Good luck with the KAFABE, but the secret is clear, people like to see the action. No thinking involved, just eyecandy.

Tony
DT3
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I know Hulk.

Let's talk.

ROSHAMBO Hogan!

D
Slim King
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I'll do it!!!!!
He does come to Universal quite a bit Smile
Have you heard the Al Mann interview?
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Doug Higley
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Disclaimers are for -J-E-R-X- who know better than to require one in the performance of -J-O-E-X-






-D-O-U-G-X-
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psychicturtle
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Hey Slim, I have it on good authority that if you go nuts at the TNA taping, really marking out for the wrestlers and making a bit of a spectacle of yourself by shouting, jeering and cheering, you get to go to a meet-and-greet with the wrestlers.
They always have spare seats available at the tapings. Which I find odd, as TNA is so good.
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