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tommy
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Going south

Going South is apparently poker slang for ratholing, that is, taking chips off the table once you've won a big pot (in order to "guarantee a win" by ensuring you cannot lose the money you remove).

In season two of High Stakes Poker, Johnny Chan and Sam Farha joke about Freddy Deeb "going south" when Freddy leaves the table to use the bathroom. Daniel Negreanu seemed to not be paying very much attention until it got a bit loud, and apparently thought that Johnny and Sam might be serious. When Freddy returns, Daniel Negreanu asks Freddy if he went south. Freddy, not believing that anyone could be asking him that, at first laughs it off, but then the realization begins to sink in: one of his fellow players has just asked if he was cheating.

Freddy considers himself a very honorable player (as all high stakes players must), and takes offense at the comment. When no one will seem to own up as being the person who started the accusation, and others say "just laugh it off", Freddy gets angrier and angrier, finally calling a halt to the entire game and demanding that the floorman be brought in to mediate. Eventually, Freddy calms down and the game continues, but no one ever admits to Freddy what exactly was said and who said it.

Freddy strenuously denied ratholing, and since the show was televised, the on-air commentators (Gabe Kaplan and A.J. Benza) made a point of saying they checked the replay and the tape, and Freddy did not take any money off the table. To do so would have been dishonorable and against the rules of the game, and to accuse another player of doing so was quite insulting.

Retrieved from http://poker.wikia.com/wiki/Going_south


The truth is that pros do go South and moreover some even go North, adding it when they have pocket Aces or whatever. I happen to know one pro who is a past master at it. It’s a small ruse but I thought it worth a mention here since it is a common and well known form of cheating among players but I can‘t recall it being mentioned here before.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
rawdawg
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I've been in many games where there are always some players so eager to lean in on a pot, they forget to consider the cash when counting down an opponents chip stack. I'm sure there is a percentage play in that situation somewhere.
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
h2o
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I consider it quite strange that "Going South" be considered as cheating. Is it really an established official poker rule, stating that you can't "put apart" some of your chips? That if you want to cash out some of your chips then you have to cash out all of them and leave the game?
For me it seems more an "etiquette" thing, and if a player happens to do it, I'll see it more as a kind of "weakness" or "cowardliness", but to call it cheating...
magician8
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I thought going south was palming a card.
Ron Conley
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Quote:
On 2008-01-28 08:34, magician8 wrote:
I thought going south was palming a card.


You can go south with a card i.e. palming a card, then taking it under the table. South is the direction, can be cards chips whatever.
DStachowiak
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"Going South" has long been slang among magicians for copping or stealing any object, usually to dispose of it in a pocket etc. It is used in lots of older magic books.
I have always assumed it originated as gambling slang.
Don
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card cheat
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Like most of the terminology in this arena, there is no strict glossary of terms that is adhered to.

As far as "going south" with chips is concerned, this is a no-no. I don't play in casinos, and stick only to home games and illegal card rooms and I can tell you that even in these places this is against the "rules" in every circumstance.

In poker, the chips are played just as the cards are. It's just not accepted practice to sit behind a certain amount and subtract from, or add to, that amount at will.

In the underground joints, the way to go about doing this would be to cash out, take a "break", and buy back in a little later for a lesser amount. Most people won't like this, either, but there's nothing that they can do about it.

CC
silverking
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In private games one of your concerns is to be invited back to play in the next game, and the next, etc.

Ratholing certainly won't get you an invitation back, and unless you travel widely, doing it could leave you looking for a game.

If you're playing for a living, burning games is something you don't want to do.
tommy
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Here is an example from a fella who runs a poker club:

It is known better in the UK as 'Weeding' and there are so many reasons why it is wrong.

There was a guy in the early days of the club who was barred for life who was very good at the art. He used to sit down with £80-£100 in the £50 game, spin it up to £300 or so and then swith off. A round or so would pass and he hasn't played a hand and he is down to £120 in his stack. About 1 round later he would get involved in a pot and obviously have aces pre or the nuts on the flop and by a strange miracle his stack would grow back to £300 or so and manage to get it all in.

We watched him closely for about 3-4 days both live and on our CCTV system and worked out he was slipping chips inside his sleave until a point when he needed to get them in play. He left them in his sleave if he wasn't too sure about his hand but wanted to get it all in anyway.

I hate weeders as they are cheating, it is that simple. You are playing for table stakes and if you don't want to have your money on offer you can get up or not play. Poker is a game that has some financial risks attached which make it such a great game and this is why most online sites have a 'sit back down rule' on your stacks in a cash game so you can't leave when sitting on $602 and then sit back down at another $2-$4 game with $150.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
card cheat
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Quote:
On 2008-01-27 22:28, rawdawg wrote:
I've been in many games where there are always some players so eager to lean in on a pot, they forget to consider the cash when counting down an opponents chip stack. I'm sure there is a percentage play in that situation somewhere.


Same thing as sneaking a stack of the high value chips behind stacks of lower ones.

Doesn't work against tougher opponents, but it still goes over from time to time.

CC
h2o
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Thanks Tommy for the nice story. When thinking about "going south" with chips not really being a "cheating move", I was not thinking about that kind of behavior, this way of sneaking in and out chips during a hand. That's indeed not anymore a poor behavior, that's definitively cheating.
tommy
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Yes that was from Barry at Gutshots in London. One the things you see in casino games is guys holding chips in their hand off table. If you pull them about they say oh sorry. It is such a petty form of cheating that it annoys me and I go nuts at them when they do it. Which is hypocritical when I think about it. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
rawdawg
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Quote:
On 2008-01-28 17:52, card cheat wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-01-27 22:28, rawdawg wrote:
I've been in many games where there are always some players so eager to lean in on a pot, they forget to consider the cash when counting down an opponents chip stack. I'm sure there is a percentage play in that situation somewhere.


Same thing as sneaking a stack of the high value chips behind stacks of lower ones.

Doesn't work against tougher opponents, but it still goes over from time to time.

CC


...especially if there is a genuine sounding apology thrown into the mix. I can see offering the person just a call if one's hand is not so strong but keeping quiet and hoping the gentleman's sense of honor drives him to make good on his word against one's nut holdings. In either case, remember to shower afterwards.
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
card cheat
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Maybe I'm dumb, or it's just been one helluva long day, but could you elaborate?

CC
Hansen
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I thought 'going south' meant ... oh, I'm sorry, we're talking about poker cheats!
rawdawg
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Quote:
On 2008-01-28 23:45, card cheat wrote:
Maybe I'm dumb, or it's just been one helluva long day, but could you elaborate?

CC


Long day over here too.... the more I read my response, the more I am assuming things that aren't in the text...forget I said anything... not really important.

Anyways, I remember one game where it was held in a garage. It was open and the winds were blowing. I stacked my chips on my cash to prevent them from flying away. The cash was showing but barely to anybody on the left of me. An elderly gentleman went all in against me when I held a boat to his nut straight. He didn't realize I had him covered. It got yucky for a moment so I offered to null his All In. He knuckled up and honored his bet despite my protests.

Not quite going South, I know, but surely going somewhat east...
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
tommy
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I think Rawdawg is speaking of angling, as in taking advantage of a situation within the rules. A few $20 notes on top of a stack of $50 notes or something like that can create such situations I guess.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
rawdawg
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Yeah, you're right Tommy, it's angle shooting. But I do have a friend that goes South in games. He likes to change out people who bust and require chips. He ratholes part of the cash during all the back and forth.
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
card cheat
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No... I understood what you were saying. I posted something that hinted at this earlier in this thread. I've seen this happen a few different times, and have also seen guys get reprimanded for it.

There were just a couple things in that post that were unclear to me, that's all. I understood the basic aim of the comments. Thanks, though.

But all this talk of "nut holding", and taking a shower afterwards....

What kind of a forum is this?!?!?!

CC
tommy
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Angle shooting is an excellent way for a gentleman cardsharp to lose his reputation as an honest man.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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