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Greg Arce
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On 2008-06-12 07:50, Slim King wrote:
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On 2008-06-12 00:47, Philemon Vanderbeck wrote:
Slim,

I suspect you can go ahead and perform the simultaneous games of chess swindle and most of your audience will never have seen DB explain how it was done.


If you have a barrel of sewage and drop in a glass on fine wine, you still have a barrel of sewage.
If you have a barrel of fine wine and drop in a glass of sewage, you now have a barrel of sewage.

That's how I see performances.... If one person walks out blabbing the "I know how he did it" bragery... I'm sunk!
Ruins the whole thing.


Slim, that kind of thinking will not let you perform anywhere. In any show there's always a few stick in the muds. In any show there's a few know-it-alls. And, the worst of all, many shows have amateur magicians seated amongst the crowd... talk about know-it-alls.

Just perform and let the chips fall wherever they will fall.

Do you think that in all the shows you've done there hasn't been that type of person you are afraid of? Keep performing and don't worry about it.

Greg
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markjens
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I would not consider the glass eating clip to be anything like exposure. He persuaded someone to eat glass, and encouraged them along the way. Anyone could assume that he possessed great powers of persuasion by this. I didn't see exposure. If you do (have done) glass eating in your act, you'd do no differently than we saw this gentleman do, and in no case would your audience assume that they could do likewise. I saw the chess thing and though I am not an accompished chess player, I knew of the ruse. I cannot say whether or not Derren exposes anything since I have seen but the few episodes that a friend showed me. I am not defending anything or anyone, but I will say that if a person will bring magic or mentalism to the public without being a hack and giving the art a bad name, I appreciate it.
Slim King
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On 2008-06-11 19:12, DJM wrote:
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The chess exposure however is a clear case of magic exposure and it seems that Derren is exempt from all criticism around here.

If it were someone else who exposed the chess trick, there would be much more criticism. I’ve been chastised in the past for even directing an inquirer to a marketed effect, yet Derren can blatantly expose magic and few have anything to say about it. I think that’s very telling.


Holly


A clear case of magic exposure? It's not even a magic trick, it's an old and known chess trick that can be found in chess books. So no magic was exposed.

How many magicians/mentalists have you seen do this chess routine, besides Derren? I'd really like to know.


Just spoke with Martin Gardner about the Chess effect. He'd written about it LONG AGO! Not that he performed it.
He was also a bit upset about someone exposing the TT. As in P&T..TT
Why?
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Greg Arce
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On 2008-06-12 17:40, Slim King wrote:

Just spoke with Martin Gardner about the Chess effect. He'd written about it LONG AGO! Not that he performed it.
He was also a bit upset about someone exposing the TT. As in P&T..TT
Why?


Martin Gardner has written many books explaining magic effects. These books are sold through Amazon and Barnes & Nobles. Why? I mean why isn't he mad at that exposure? Why doesn't he make sure that those books are only sold at magic stores where the person entering is interested in that and not just snooping the internet or the bookstore.

Before anyone jumps me here let me say I was being sarcastic. I'm always amazed at some guys that will say someone else is exposing when they themselves have "sold" magic to the open community. Let he who is without exposing throw the first foam rock.

greg

P.S. By the way, I'm sure there are a lot of workers out there that can site effects from Martin's books that they use either in their acts or as a way to make money. So is he taking money out of their pockets too by not policing where his are sold?
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
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Quote:

Just spoke with Martin Gardner about the Chess effect. He'd written about it LONG AGO! Not that he performed it.
He was also a bit upset about someone exposing the TT. As in P&T..TT
Why?


The TT is a magic trick, the chess thing is not much. I don't really see how a magician can even perform it, on a stage show or anywhere else that has an audience . It would take a long time and the audience would be half sleeping by the end of it. I can only see it working on a Derren type of show, with editing.

As for your probem.. do you really think random people at Universal even know who Derren is, or seen that specific video?

If they know chess very well then there's a good chance they already know this trick by now anyway, regardless of Derren. This is the kind of thing that you don't need to be a magician to know how it works. Being a chess player might be enough. Smile
Slim King
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I played chess heavily back in the day and I did NOT know the ruse. The guys Derrten played didn't know. OR.... Were they stooges then?

A HUGE percentage of folks at Universal are from the UK!

Martin was a bit upset since it was GIVEN away (Not that P&T don't charge for their shows, and that is why I don't go completely ballistic) but Martin has never GIVEN his stuff away. Even his exposures were SOLD! No one has control over how our publications are handled. Some day Greg, your stuff may be on LIMEWIRE ...Can you control that? (Plus, Martin is not on the internet...I keep asking him to get on and join the Café)
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Greg Arce
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On 2008-06-12 21:01, Slim King wrote:
I. Some day Greg, your stuff may be on LIMEWIRE ...Can you control that? (Plus, Martin is not on the internet...I keep asking him to get on and join the Café)


Dude, my stuff is already everywhere I don't want it to be... that's why I hold back on pointing fingers. If you do a search you'll probably find the experiment I did when the Masked Magician first came out. It kind of proved that the public has a short memory for secrets. We like them, we live in that world... the real world doesn't care that much about it. It would be similar to someone putting out all the secrets of plumbers. As people watched they would go, "oooh, I didn't know that. that's fascinating." Ask them about what they heard a few weeks later and they won't remember most of it and what they remember is kind of mixed up.

Greg

P.S. And my statement still stands: If you think you don't already have people who are trying to guess what you do, or think they know, or just come up with kooky ways it works, then you're in the wrong business because I can guarantee in every show you have a few.
Time to take up needlepoint.
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Slim King
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I don't get your point so I guess I'll have to go get some Yarn and Crochet Hooks!
And COME ON GREG...The first question out of their mouth is "How'd he do that?" ... In fact my first character name was HOWDY DEWITT and then HOWDY NODAT.
Off to Michaels!
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Greg Arce
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On 2008-06-13 08:53, Slim King wrote:
I don't get your point so I guess I'll have to go get some Yarn and Crochet Hooks!
And COME ON GREG...The first question out of their mouth is "How'd he do that?" ... In fact my first character name was HOWDY DEWITT and then HOWDY NODAT.
Off to Michaels!


You're absolutely right and that's why you should stop worrying. Every show you have is filled with people who want to know how it works plus people who know how it works plus people who think they know how it works... but that shouldn't stop you from performing it.

Look, when Marc Salem appeared on the scene in the mid-90s he had a stage show that was mostly out of 13 Steps with some touches here and there. I'm sure a lot of people at that time had read something about how certain effects worked. I'm sure there were people in his audience who thought they knew how it worked. Yet it sold out night after night. He was the toast of the town.

All that and he was doing what some would have said is "old stuff", "who's going to be fooled by that?"... Well, apparently he did.

Slim, let me try to tell you the short version of the experiment I tried when the first Masked Magician did his show. I was living in New York. It was the buzz of the magic community: "Oh, no, there goes our bread winners!", "This is the end of magic." etc.

Okay, so I invited a bunch of friends over to my apartment. All of them knew I performed magic for years and that I kept secrets. I sat them down to watch. They were in shock. They kept turning to me and saying things like, "this must make you mad.", "Oh, man, what are you going to do now." etc.

I urged them to keep watching and pay as much attention as possible.

So the show ends and I let them go about their lives for a few weeks... it's been awhile so it could have been more than a month. Anyway, I started approaching them one by one and asking them what they saw.

Do you think they told me the exact methods and ideas? Nope. They could barely reconstruct a basic premise. It usually went something like, "Yeah, he did a thing where he showed something was hidden or something like that."

Basically, it didn't matter in their lives. It matters in our lives that's why we pay so much attention to it. I have a friend who is a computer whiz. He could tell me the secret of checking out anyone's email or breaking into banks electronically and I would forget what he said within minutes. I'm not a computer person. It's all gibberish to me.

Go do the chess thing with your kid. You'll see that it will all work out in the end. Let's say out of a few hundred people who see you do it that ten or so know how it's done. So? The Svengali deck has been around forever, sold on TV, demonstrated and sold at countless fairs, etc... yet time and time again I fooled new customers coming into the magic shop. You would think with all that exposure more people would know how it worked... they didn't.

Go do the chess thing. You'll be glad you did.

Greg
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Dannydoyle
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On 2008-06-09 09:00, Harley Newman wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't this usually be called "exposure"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCaHXPFAgC0

I need not comment much on the total irresponsibility and lack of professionalism, in teaching this to a non-professional, on TV.


In all honesty thsi is what frustrates me about this guy. First you are accepting the premise that the guy is not a stooge. Man just look at how shattered the light bulb is and such and you see the editing.

Look at the way the guy slips the glass into his mouth EXACTLY the right way. I mean this guy knew how to eat glass for YEARS before he sat down.

Now to accept the premise that the guy was a complete layman, lends to the "exposure" idea. Heck half the "trick" is the guts to do it in the first place.

It wasn't exposure, it was a new presentation of a VERY old premise. He put on a new hula skirt, on an old hula dancer.
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Alex Linian
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Long Live Derren Brown!!!
Greg Arce
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By the way, Todd Robbins has been doing this stunt for years and I believe he explains exactly what is happening in each show.
I saw him work the Castle and he practically walked the audience through everything that was happening and how it was happening as he ate the bulb.
People were still astounded and I don't think any were about to try it once they got home.
This is like explaining what is happening when you walk on coals or broken glass... do you really think anyone is going to go out and try it once they've heard the "secret"?

Greg
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Dannydoyle
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On 2008-06-13 11:44, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-06-09 09:00, Harley Newman wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't this usually be called "exposure"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCaHXPFAgC0

I need not comment much on the total irresponsibility and lack of professionalism, in teaching this to a non-professional, on TV.


In all honesty thsi is what frustrates me about this guy. First you are accepting the premise that the guy is not a stooge. Man just look at how shattered the light bulb is and such and you see the editing.

Look at the way the guy slips the glass into his mouth EXACTLY the right way. I mean this guy knew how to eat glass for YEARS before he sat down.

Now to accept the premise that the guy was a complete layman, lends to the "exposure" idea. Heck half the "trick" is the guts to do it in the first place.

It wasn't exposure, it was a new presentation of a VERY old premise. He put on a new hula skirt, on an old hula dancer.


And by the way as far as the new hula skirt, GOOD FOR HIM! Bout time someone did that.
Danny Doyle
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Harley Newman
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Todd doesn't explain glass eating to the audience with great detail, and in all the times I've watched and performed with him, I've never seen an audience member leave, with the idea that s/he could go home and try it.

I've known Todd a long time. I only know of two occasions, when he discussed it in detail. One was to students who were taking an advanced-skills class. The other was in personal conversation, when we were discussing technique of a number of different stunts, and no other people were present.

I find it mildly amusing, that so many people here think this DB thing is ok. Is that because this is a stunt, and therefore not technically "magic" as defined by many?

If the guy eating the glass was an old pro, it might be obvious to us, but that doesn't mean an average audience member would see it that way. In my experience, magicians see things very differently than audience members (often to the great detriment of their performance).

Many of you would be screaming bloody murder, if you saw someone showing a center-tear on a show that exposed fortune-tellers.

DB has done a lot of good work, and deserves recognition for it. I shall continue, however, to think that this performance was way out of line.
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Greg Arce
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Harley, I saw him at the Castle. He basically explained it in as much, if not more, detail than Derren did. I didn't feel it was exposure. I think his explanation made the event seem even more real to those watching as it showed that there was no trickery involved.
He talked about chewing it down to powder and how he had to have a diet regime to follow that I believed involved bread.
In this particular case I don't feel that explaining what you are doing is exposure. It would be like a stuntman explaining how to properly do a high fall. It's not a trick and I don't think the audience is going to rush out to try it once they know the "secret".
Anyway, Todd is on the Café from time to time so maybe he'll chime in.

Greg
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I honestly don't understand what's being exposed here? You eat glass. You do exactly what you say you are doing. He told the guy to break it, put a piece in his mouth, chew it up, and swallow. I wouldn't say that's exposure any more than Johnny Fox explaining how sword swallowing involves controlling your gag reflex, lubricating the blade with your tongue, and then sliding it down your throat. Can someone please explain to me what was exposed?
Todd Robbins
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I don't think it is exposure. I think it was incredibly stupid, but not exposure. I don't know if the guy was a stooge or not. That is not important. What is important is that Darren got someone to do something extremely dangerous that could end their life. Admittedly, if it was a stooge, then he knew what he was getting into, but the guy was still risking his life. If it was a layman, then that bit was as irresponsible as it can be.
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I had a friend back in England who actualy died from to much ground class in his stomach it was his weekly bar trick.
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
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I'm sorry to see this performed this way. Kinda chilling really.

"Next...see here Mr. Spectator...just simply take this sword and pop it down your own throat. Mind over Matter pal...I have you covered."

Yikes!
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Regarding Derren's Chess stunt, isn't some facet of genius with regard to any art is doing something that causes everyone else in the field to say, "DOH! I could have done that and now I can't!"

I don't condone exposure, but sometimes teeter totering that line can elevate the art to new heights.
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