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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-12-14 03:33, Lawrence O wrote: Sir, Your post is appreciated and for the most part I agree. However there has been an attitude prevalent in magic that in my opinion is somewhat like a cancer-- slowly destroying it from within. Here it is, in a nutshell: Magicians constantly make the mistake of assuming that a critique on their work is an attack on themselves. We, as performers, need to be able to distinguish between the two. Simply because someone dislikes (or even HATES) a piece of your work DOES NOT mean they hate (or even dislike) you. In my experience, the people that can distinguish between the two are the magicians who accomplish the most. It took me a long time to learn this, but once I did my development as a Sleight of Hand Artist went exponentially faster. Now when I ask for critiques from a fellow performer I will always preface it with something like this: "Don't tell me what you liked. I want to hear what you hated." This has the advantage of bringing things that need to be fixed to my immediate attention, rather than building my ego. It has been my experience that the mistake I defined above is even more prevalent on the internet and it's becoming increasingly obvious that the magicians who know of the above error and have overcome it are starting to point out the people making it. The internet has, for too long, been a place where people can build their egos instead of their skills. (in terms of magic) If we, as a community continue to ask "What'd you think?" as a way to serve our own egos rather than "Tell me what you hated" as a way to improve, then magic will be overrun with people who are more interested in building their egos instead of their skills in the Art. Finally, one way you can tell if someone is making that mistake is to listen to their reaction when they get negative criticism. Another way is the frequency of the videos they post-- people who know they're going to get honest critiques will post less material because they will spend more time making sure what they post is the best they have to offer. To be sure, some of the comments on this thread were rather harsh, but they were also magnified by defensive, "You don't know what you're talking about" statements by Vinny. I would hope that the people reading this message understand that it is written because I felt that this particular thread perfectly illustrates the above points-- which I have been thinking about for years. It was not written because I have anything against any of the posters. Steven Youell |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
I agree with Steven.
It's sometimes hard to separate the two (person versus the work) because for those that take magic seriously (I'm sure that's most of the people on this forum...) our work is like our babies, or an extension of ourselves. No one likes to hear their work is shoddy. But it's necessary. I've mentioned this before but I sometimes asks magic buddies to come to shows with me and make notes as I perform. If it's a restaurant, which it usually is, then I tell them for every bad thing they write down I will give them more cash for food. Let me tell you, when it's phrased like that people find some NASTY stuff to point out. Premises that aren't good, poor material selection, bad hair, don't like what I'm wearing, etc EVERYTHING gets torn down. But it's necessary. Happy Holidays! Ben
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts |
My youngest son is a music major and he just finished up with finals. One of his pieces was selected for a recital and he called to tell me that he got rave reviews! I asked if it was all raves or did anyone have any less than glowing comments?!?! He said that he had one bad review from a fellow student that he has no respect for so he blew it off but also had a minor critique from a professor he greatly admires that he took to heart! I suggested he take BOTH pieces of advise and to at least consider what the student said!
Nothing worse for advancement than having sunshine blown up your arse at ever turn! Ben, There are some awesome restaurants in the Bay area that I'd be happy to coat tail you in during the next GGG! Mick |
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
Since my name was brought up again by the same people I will answer . it all depends who is making the critique.
\ I am not a performer I like to think of myself as a creator of magic . If you do not like what I had to offer so be it. But do not knock something withoput first trying or expermenting with it. YThe video was bad I agree but it was not about the video or the trick it was the slights I used . this was only a example there are many wasy of utilizing these slights, I am not the main stream or do I follow what others who came befor me had to say. this was there train of thought not mine in magic. what I share is for free, I do not charge one penny or ask for any money to enter my web site it is free free free free and if you do not like what I have to offer it did not cost you one cent.,. if marlo was alive to critique my work then I would certainly listen . |
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Zhang Special user 515 Posts |
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On 2008-12-14 16:07, Steven Youell wrote: I could not agree more. |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
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On 2008-12-14 17:04, vinsmagic wrote: I'm kind of surprised by this comment. For a man who was so upset about him and his work not being shown respect you certainly aim low... But, I guess it's nice to know you don't value our opinions. Unless I missunderstood. Ben
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
Vinny,
When you post a video on the internet, then you are putting yourself in a position to be critiqued by anyone with a computer. If you only want to be critiqued by people you know, respect or will only give positive feedback, then send it to them in a private e-mail. But making the video available on the internet and then being outraged when some people don't like it only makes you look bad. So, as I said before: Let it go. Just...let it go. Steven Youell |
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Chessmann Inner circle 4242 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-12-14 17:26, Steven Youell wrote: I didn't think that the point was simply about someone disliking the video. More to it than just that.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Just one point
I was sent a PM underlining that I had read the blog too fast. After rechecking, it turns out that the person who PMd me was right: I read phrases instead of phases. Sorry for the mistake which means that, even if my post underlines valid points IMHO, it doesn't do it in a pertinent context. Sorry
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
Listen the people on this site are familiar with me and my work the people on the internet are not. this I understand.
Again forthe last time the video was not good and I admit this however, it is about the controls I used as my hands were being burned. if youtried or even know what iddid and then said hey this does not work for me so be it, for example I hate the classic palm I think there are only a few that can do this palm and make the hand look natural I am not one of them so I never use it there are other palming techniques that workand look better. |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
<sigh>
OK Vinny. Whatever you say... Steven Youell |
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jstone Inner circle Someday I'll have 1473 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-12-14 17:04, vinsmagic wrote: Are you saying that nobody else is qualified to critique you unless they are of the caliber of Marlo? If that's true, then sports teams would not have coaches. Tiger Woods would not have a coach. Tiger Woods's coach is not a better golfer than Tiger; He's just an objective party that can see things Tiger can't. Don't you think there are things we (people who are not Marlo) can see that you can't? If not, then it is you, my friend, who are in need of growing up, and not those who are younger than you by age alone. |
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Pauldela Special user U.K 882 Posts |
LOL Steven Youell is fed up of Vinnie.
Kammagic has left the convo a long time ago, looking foward to more vids! Ben train is still in here just doing his thing. All sorts has happened... I agree with only one thing though... DANCE OFF!!!! |
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Chessmann Inner circle 4242 Posts |
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On 2008-12-14 19:22, jstone wrote: I think he meant that only as an example.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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jstone Inner circle Someday I'll have 1473 Posts |
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On 2008-12-14 19:44, Chessmann wrote: I understand that, but he is certainly implying that others are not worthy to criticize him. Hence my question to him. |
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Pauldela Special user U.K 882 Posts |
Jstone your the guy from Underground Jam? I didn't know that, sweet.
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Pauldela Special user U.K 882 Posts |
When I look at your avatar I always picture that your playing golf.
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
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On 2008-12-14 19:22, Pauldela wrote: Nope-- it's just that I can see he's not going to take my advice. And I'm OK with that... Steven Youell |
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CharlieC Elite user 488 Posts |
I just got off a very long phone conversation with Vinny. As many of you know, Vinny is one of my closest friends and I visit him on a weekly basis (not necessarily magic-related). I love discussing magic philosophy and we always end up arguing a few hours every week.
I've been following this thread and after today's conversation realized I had to chime in. He did not ask me to post this. In fact, I know he was a bit upset when I didn't jump to his defense early in the thread. I want to clarify a few things that have been said. First, regarding who can and can't criticize his work. Vinny meant to say that he personally only valued the criticisms of people that perform magic in a style similar to his own. Everyone is certainly free to criticize his work. Especially for videos that he has made available to the public. He also feels that some people in this thread have a personal vendetta against him. I assured him that they didn't, but I'm not sure he's convinced. He knows he doesn't take criticism well, especially from those he perceives with a bias towards his work. This leads me to a very important second point. He genuinely didn't believe that random tricks he put out would be criticized. In his mind, he was just filming random train of thought ideas. Obviously, the moves and effects were not polished. In fact, many videos were sloppy, bold, and failed in front of the camera. I've told him this many times, but he never took it to heart. I believe he now finally understands that everything he makes available publicly will be seen by his peers. They will judge his material vocally or subconsciously. I think there will be a shift in the videos we will see from Vinny in the future. The public ones on Youtube will show more polish. I think he will continue to send his "unpolished" ideas and tricks to close friends for feedback. Of course, I have no doubt he will continue to send out HUNDREDS of videos on a weekly basis to complete strangers that ask for his help. That's just the kind of guy he is. I love the guy and don't have a problem telling him things he doesn't want to hear. Heck, I think his wife despises me because I'm always yelling at him. But I think I would only be a true friend if I'm completely honest with him.
"Whenever he gets in a fix he reaches into his bag of tricks.
Felix the cat, the wonderful, wonderful cat..." |
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jstone Inner circle Someday I'll have 1473 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-12-14 20:22, Pauldela wrote: Yep... Underground Jam... that's me. That's funny... it does look like I'm lining up for a shot. Ironically, I've never once set foot on a golf course... That avatar is actually a still shot from This Video Clip Back on topic... CharlieC... I like the way you think. I think being able to take criticism is one of the most valuable tools for one's growth, so Amen to your post brother. |
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