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J.G. the magnificent
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I have been working on a multiplying billiard balls routine. Only instead of regular balls, they are flame retardant balls of cotton on fire. In order to hold them without burning my hand, I need to have a formula on my hands. I checked out some stuff in Ricky Jay's Learned Pigs And Fireproof Women and Jim Rose's Snake Oil. The stuff is outdated, and I don't understand what most of the ingredients are. Does anyone have any formulas that I could make that I could understand? I don't know a lot of Chemical knowledge.

Another thing I was having trouble with was instead of using a bucket for the balls, I could use my pockets, but I would have to have some sort of liner in them to keep the balls from burning them. Plus, something to reignite them as they protruded back out. Any thought on this?
Jeremy Gates
trashmanf
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That sounds like a pretty extreme take on the multiplying balls! I've no idea how practical you'll be able to pull it all together, but please keep us updated if you manage it!
Kyle^Ravin
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Actually, there's another idea, look at fire juggling balls. It's basically a spiral ball of Kevlar with a wick in the middle. The center is fueled, and you can hold the balls w/o any special gels. All you need to do is make your own, just smaller. For the pockets, line it with Kevlar. You can get loads of Kevlar from http://www.dube.com
Darkwing
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Jeremy, you are asking for big trouble.

If you have no experience in the safe handling and processing of chemicals, the question is not if you will have a catastrophic accident but when.

Here is what happens when a magician plays with fire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw9IAr9VzlU

Duhhh, he gets burned. Hey, y'all, watch this!!!!

If you listen to folks like this guy that is telling you to use Kevlar, you will get burned. It is Nomex, not Kevlar, that is fire resistant; and you noticed I said fire resistant, not fire proof. Nomex has its limits.

How do I know? My full time real job is selling valves and instrumentation to the chemical processing industry. I work with customers daily that are trained to handle dangerous chemicals 24 / 7. They use barriers and firesafe valves in their processes. Even with all the safeguards and safety training and safety checks, they still have accidents. Trust me, I was glad I wasn't around when a chemical company had a leak or failure. Even when dealing with steam, people get hurt and, yes, sometimes lose their life.

Even in the best of companies, this can happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxNpz41wSOg&feature=related

Am I trying to scare you? You betcha. I don't want to see you on the news or in a burn unit for 10 weeks, if you are lucky.

Get yourself a set of Fakini billiard balls or a deck of cards, and forget this foolhardy venture.
trashmanf
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Perhaps you could figure out a compromise - for example, do the multiplying routine, and then set it on a "candelabra" type deal and light the balls on fire after you've pulled them from thin air?
J.G. the magnificent
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Quote:
On 2008-12-23 16:18, trashmanf wrote:
Perhaps you could figure out a compromise - for example, do the multiplying routine, and then set it on a "candelabra" type deal and light the balls on fire after you've pulled them from thin air?

I like that and I did buy one as a cheap just as good substitute for a magicians ball stand. Which I could do however the whole point of holding them in my bare hand with flame retardant fumula on it is to give the dramatic ahh effect that I can resist the heat. Plus to have flaming balls from my pockets would be much coller than unlit ones.
Jeremy Gates
J.G. the magnificent
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On 2008-12-19 00:23, Darkwing wrote:
Jeremy, you are asking for big trouble.

If you have no experience in the safe handling and processing of chemicals, the question is not if you will have a catastrophic accident but when.

Here is what happens when a magician plays with fire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw9IAr9VzlU

Duhhh, he gets burned. Hey, y'all, watch this!!!!

If you listen to folks like this guy that is telling you to use Kevlar, you will get burned. It is Nomex, not Kevlar, that is fire resistant; and you noticed I said fire resistant, not fire proof. Nomex has its limits.

How do I know? My full time real job is selling valves and instrumentation to the chemical processing industry. I work with customers daily that are trained to handle dangerous chemicals 24 / 7. They use barriers and firesafe valves in their processes. Even with all the safeguards and safety training and safety checks, they still have accidents. Trust me, I was glad I wasn't around when a chemical company had a leak or failure. Even when dealing with steam, people get hurt and, yes, sometimes lose their life.

Even in the best of companies, this can happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxNpz41wSOg&feature=related

Am I trying to scare you? You betcha. I don't want to see you on the news or in a burn unit for 10 weeks, if you are lucky.

Get yourself a set of Fakini billiard balls or a deck of cards, and forget this foolhardy venture.

Thanks, although those are entirely different circumstances. I am not going to have flames bursting with flash paper or mini torches or anything of the sort. Simply two to three inch flames, carefully held away from my body. Keeping in mind, the flames heat going up possibly catching my suit ablaze. So I would have a guard of a sort in the sensitive areas. Also, as far as those go ,just like the bullet catch, in my opinion, it's not the stunt that is dangerous, but the way it's done and human error. If I keep those in mind and always think of the worst case scenario, the chances are slim. Besides, with this effect, worst thing is a slight heat felt on hand that can be immediately noticed and routine can then be abandoned. If clothes catch on fire, there will be a man with a fire extinguisher, along with a bucket of water for minor things such as hand burns. Plus, there are a lot of accidents, but a lot fewer than there are. The media only covers the bad. There has even been a study on media coverage.

P.S. Thanks for the suggestion about not using Kevlar.
Jeremy Gates
J.G. the magnificent
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Quote:
On 2008-12-17 15:23, trashmanf wrote:
That sounds like a pretty extreme take on the multiplying balls! I've no idea how practical you'll be able to pull it all together, but please keep us updated if you manage it!

For the pockets, I figured empty aluminum food cans as inside protective liners with top and bottom out so as one end is open and other crushed. Being thin on the bottom, not being as bulky and a easier fit. The tops could contain the wicks used for old style flash pan rifles. They would stay hot allowing balls to be reignited as they are extracted.

As far as the hand formula goes, though, I am still working on it. If nothing else, I could either use a candelabra, like someone suggested, or use flame retardant gloves found on some juggling sites. However, that would ruin the being resistant to the flames effect.
Jeremy Gates
Michael J. Douglas
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From the language you're using, you're not ready for something like this. No matter how many safeguards are in place, bad things happen. It's not just how it's done, IT IS DANGEROUS! Until you realize that, you're sunk. Why do you think accidents happen? Good people, smart people, people who do all the right things get hurt, and they get hurt badly. Gremlins ALWAYS creep in, and it's just a matter of when. Looking for answers online from people you don't know and don't know you just adds to the danger. Dangerous effects should be learnt in person from experienced people.

Discussing pyro formulas isn't allowed on The Café, but no magic creams or formulas will protect your hands anyway. The gels that full body burners use usually last less than two minutes, and they still get burnt because the gels don't block the heat.
Aluminum cans in your pockets? Aluminum gets hot, quickly, and not just in one spot. The heat will travel; it's called conduction. There's a good reason fire-fighters aren't wearing suits of armor like knights on a crusade.

Please, take what I say as it's intended. It's not a slam on you, but facts and an educated opinion based on your own words and questions.
Michael J.
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Darkwing
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I wasn't kidding about the burn unit for 10 weeks. I had a friend in one for that long and he is scared for life in an accident. Yes he was burned in an accident. It wasn't intentional. But if you are dead set on doing this......

I would highly recommend anyone reading these post not encourage this foolishness.

Jeremy,

You have signed your post with "Sincerely, Jeremy Gates" and you might be sincere in what you are doing, but you are sincerely wrong.

The point of my original post is this; I work with customers that are trained in the process and handling of very hazardous materials and they have accidents.

I don't care if you think this is a different situation because it isn't and I don't really care if I hack you off in the process. You are playing with fire and you are going to get hurt.

Think about this from a different perspective. Forget about you for a minute. If you are at home around your family or friends or in a public venue and your actions cause a fire that causes damage to property or injury to a person or persons you will be held criminally liable and could face serious time in jail for your actions.

Do a Google on the Great White nightclub fire in RI. Those guys are in prison with long sentences for stupidity. They had the same mindset that you have, they were trying to entertain their audience with fire effects and ended up killing over 200 people.
Michael J. Douglas
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Thanks for mentioning liability, Darkwing. I forgot to mention how hard an act like this is to book, let alone how much insurance would cost. Every place has their own codes and statutes, and many places don't allow fire of any sort anymore. I've read of people having to get permits to light a single candle on stage, and I know some places require the presence of a Fire Marshall.
Michael J.
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Danny Borneo
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First off, both books you mentioned are simply historical reference material (not necessarily "accurate" reference material), as a matter of fact most of the time it's completely incorrect unsafe info that was passed down either to throw people off the trail of the actual method. In fact Rose's book is actually a bunch of material that's been compiled (stolen) from other sources with no input from him on the subject. Another example would be Houdini's Miracle Mongers and Their Methods, in which Houdini states that fire eating is accomplished by swallowing an asbestos sheath prior to starting so you don't burn your throat, does that really sound like sound advice or a procedure that you should follow?

Please note, Kevlar will burn and char, please DO NOT LINE YOUR POCKETS WITH KEVLAR!!!! Trust me I'm a fire eater and breather with years of experience. It will burn. If this reasoning was true then fire blankets would be made of kevlar. Even that type of material will burn but is more resistant and is used to snuff the fire out not contain it.

Aluminum conducts heat verrrrry quickly, will heat up and will burn you as well.

Now, you talk about dealing with small bits of flame "far from your body" on one hand, but talk about stick flaming balls in and out of your pocket, not very far from your body and keep in mind, small bits of flame are what make big bits of flame.


I find this entire concept and your planning of it verrry scary to be honest. I would recommend completely avoiding it, not just for the fact that you could seriously hurt yourself or others, but also keep in mind that since things such as the fire during a Great White concerts poor pyrotechnics, Fire performance venues are slim to none and I'm just guessing here but I don't think you have your own personal fire insurance policy?


In the end you are going to do what you want, but all of this sounds extremely dangerous and the beginnings of another edition of "When Magic goes Dangerously Wrong"
Darkwing
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I recommend deleting all of this discussion.
Danny Borneo
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Now that's some sound advice.
thegreatnippulini
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Quote:
On 2010-01-13 18:48, J.G. the magnificent wrote:
... it's not the stunt that is dangerous, but the way it's done and human error.


You REALLY believe that the stunt carries no dangers?
The Great Nippulini: body piercer, Guinness World Record holder, blacksmith and man with The World's Strongest Nipples! Does the WORLD care? We shall see...
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Darkwing
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This is a train wreck waiting to happen.
thegreatnippulini
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In reality during a train wreck,the only thing anyone can really do is sit back, watch then document the aftermath.

It's a shame.
The Great Nippulini: body piercer, Guinness World Record holder, blacksmith and man with The World's Strongest Nipples! Does the WORLD care? We shall see...
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Darkwing
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Quote:
On 2010-01-14 00:47, Darkwing wrote:
I wasn't kidding about the burn unit for 10 weeks. I had a friend in one for that long and he is scared for life in an accident. Yes he was burned in an accident. It wasn't intentional. But if you are dead set on doing this......

I would highly recommend anyone reading these post not encourage this foolishness.

Jeremy,

You have signed your post with "Sincerely, Jeremy Gates" and you might be sincere in what you are doing, but you are sincerely wrong.

The point of my original post is this; I work with customers that are trained in the process and handling of very hazardous materials and they have accidents.

I don't care if you think this is a different situation because it isn't and I don't really care if I hack you off in the process. You are playing with fire and you are going to get hurt.

Think about this from a different perspective. Forget about you for a minute. If you are at home around your family or friends or in a public venue and your actions cause a fire that causes damage to property or injury to a person or persons you will be held criminally liable and could face serious time in jail for your actions.

Do a Google on the Great White nightclub fire in RI. Those guys are in prison with long sentences for stupidity. They had the same mindset that you have, they were trying to entertain their audience with fire effects and ended up killing over 200 people.


A correction on the Great White nightclub fire. The fire was at a nightclub called the Station, 100 people were killed and 230 were injured. I was mistaken and wanted to clarify the mistake.
Darkwing
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Quote:
On 2010-01-14 23:31, thegreatnippulini wrote:
In reality during a train wreck,the only thing anyone can really do is sit back, watch then document the aftermath.

It's a shame.


It is also completly preventable.
elimagic
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No good will come of this. I tried something similar aout two years ago. They were specail balls I made myself,( I'm beind vague because I don't want anyone to copy my design for you safety) In my method the balls simply caught the flame from eachother, like multiplying candles, even with my several safety precautions, I was burned quite bad on my hands, and lost several props of mine do to fire. Thank Jesus my Lord and Savior o was hurt further and that everyone else was ok. Please do not go through with this. I know it seems awsome, and you want to try something noone has done before, but honestly, its not worth it. I still have deep scars from the fluid I used in circles on my hands and forearms. A painful reminder of a mistake.

Eli
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Darkwing
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Eli,

I am sorry you were hurt. I hope you fully recover.

Your comments prove my point. I rest my case.

David
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Quote:
On 2008-12-19 00:23, Darkwing wrote:
Here is what happens when a magician plays with fire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw9IAr9VzlU


Darkwing,

Thanks for posting the above link. This horrific video serves as an important example of the need for fire performers to be thoroughly trained in fire education/safety. What a useful tool to teach a fire safety lesson, which hopefully will prevent someone from learning the same by experience.

Whilst in 2010, Fire Safety Week is observed 3rd-9th October: http://www.nfpa.org/itemdetail.asp?categ......id=34420 , performers utilizing pyro of any sort must do so year round.
Pleased to continue finding that all the world's a stage.
elimagic
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Ya I'm fine, I'm young so I heal quickly, although scars are still easily visible, but I'm fine now. That video is terrifying. that's why now I limit my fire use to flash paper and fire wallets, man that's got to be so painful.
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Der Magier
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I've heard houdini had a book on that stuff. Might want to look for it?
J.G. the magnificent
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I have realized that pockets are a bad idea. It would be better if I used a bucket or two of metal. I have realized though that if something does go wrong I could end up with a slow reaction. Then I react violently instintively waving my arm tossing fireballs at my audience. This may very well be a bad idea.
Jeremy Gates
Gary T.
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This is probably an overall bad idea, but if you really want to do something like this, rather than asking strangers on the internet about it, you should find a professional pyrotechnic. Not just somebody who says they know what their doing and plays with fire all the time, I mean somebody with real schooling and lots of experience who can help you accomplish something like this safely. You might have to sacrifice some aspects of what you want in order to be able to pull off the effect, for instance I wouldn't attempt to keep the fires burning while in my pocket, that sounds like a recipe for disaster. Aside from that, there's a lot of safety hazards in this, you can't offord to think along the lines of "it's a small fire, so theres no big risk". Remember, it's not uncommon for a house fire to be started by an unattended cigarette. Find somebody with a lot of schooling and a lot of experience, then listen to them, soak in their every word, because even if it seems they're going on and on endlessly about something that doesn't matter, it probably does, and it could be the diffence between a magic trick and a fire.
Gary T.
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Wow how did I get on this topic, seriously, everything here is old and I just realized that
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