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garcia00 Elite user 443 Posts |
Following up on a previous routining thread, this is more for newbies than old-timers.
I never do an effect that requires a force unless it is part of a routine that includes one (or more) instances where a card is freely selected. My typical routine consists of 3 phases. Phase 1, a card is freely selected, while emphasizing that any card can be chosen, it does not matter (and it does not). Phase 2 would be a forced card effect, while the final phase might be one which requires a switch in of a gaff deck or card(s). I usually break these phases up with some quickies requiring coins, rubber bands, dollar bills, or the such, which, of course, facilitates any switches necessary. Naturally, 2 phases would work as well, or I might lead (or finish) with an effect that does not require a selection (mac aces) but I never do an effect that requires a force as a standalone. FWIW. |
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Donnie Buckley V.I.P. Cleveland, Ohio 1123 Posts |
That is good thinking Garcia00.
I additionally would add that I always include an effect that includes the spectator shuffling the cards before switching in any cold decks. |
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-12-31 09:49, garcia00 wrote: I'm confused as to whether you mean this is a typical routine for you or a typical set. If it's a typical routine, it sounds like a mess. You're not Glenn Bishop, are you? |
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garcia00 Elite user 443 Posts |
Routine or set?
I am not going to use a force unless I have previously allowed a free selection. And I would allow a shuffle as well. Regardless of the length of the performance, or what you are going to call it, definitionally. |
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
I wasn't sure where you were coming from.
Okay, using a force only after having a free selection made. I'm curious as to which force and which selection procedures you might have in mind, since they're not all created equal and some will complement others better. For example, it doesn't do much good to scatter the cards on the table, let the spectator pull one out of the mess, have her shuffle it back into the deck and then follow in the next trick with a riffle force. That's going from a great degree of freedom to hardly having any at all, and it would only highlight that something's not right when it's time to do the force. So, I hope your selection procedures in either case at least approximate each other. In fact, in some circumstances, it would clearly be better to start with forces and gradually move to freer and freer selection procedures so the routine feels more and more fair and open as it goes, not the other way around. I guess there's no hard rules either way, which is another way of saying that while the strategy you suggest can sometimes be sound, it's not likely to be the soundest more than half the time. There are simply too many considerations. But good luck with it anyway. |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
Traveller:
I'd like to buy you a set of helmets. Please PM me. SEY |
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garcia00 Elite user 443 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-12-31 16:05, Open Traveller wrote: You are correct. You could follow a force with a free selection and it would arguably be just as strong, all other things being equal. I tend to favor putting the force in the middle of a 3 selection sequence. Yes, the force should be made in the same (or similar) manner as the free selection(s). Finally, you can give an incredible amount of freedom after the force as far as allowing the spectator to handle the deck after the selection. In my free selection, similar freedom is allowed after selection as well. |
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Regarding the three selection sequence, do you ever sense, as is often the case, that after just a few pick-a-card tricks (meaning, usually two or so), audiences tire of that theme? I guess a better question might be, in this set, do you do any items that don't involve picking a card?
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garcia00 Elite user 443 Posts |
Yes to both. I would not do more than 3 selections for a given group. I don't view the final gaff deck as a selection. Is Brainwave a selection? I mean, think of a card seems much different than take one.
Typical format, if I am going to do a force effect. Selection trick, instant reveal. Non card effect. Let someone else select (force). Delay reveal until Non card effect, containing reveal. Another non card effect or two. By now you should have the gaff deck already in play if so desired. If I am going to force a selection, I am only going to do that effect if it is somehow bracketed by non-force effects. |
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Okay, just curious. I don't know if you're talking about hopping tables or not, but with...
Selection trick Non-card effect Forced selection trick Non-card effect, revealing selection (?) Another non-card effect Another non-card effect Then material with a gaffed deck ...it sounds like you've been there a long time. What are we talking here, 12-18 minutes? |
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garcia00 Elite user 443 Posts |
I shoot for 10 minutes.
If I am doing shorter, I will not force. Force cannot stand alone. IMHO. |
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-12-31 16:57, garcia00 wrote: Without discussing specific forces and only speaking generally, I'm going to have to disagree with that statement. |
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BrianMillerMagic Inner circle CT 2050 Posts |
This thread seems to be implying that there is a difference to the audience between forced card effects and free selection effects. If a forced selection is not free in the minds of the audience, please discard it from your repertoire until you can perform it more adequately.
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
There can be a difference if the performer doesn't really know what he's doing. But some forces are also inherently better than others, and some forcing procedures fit some routines better than others, and if you're trying to blend it all with free selections, then you have to blend the force, the routine, the free selection procedure and everything else so it's hopefully seamless with no points of suspicion. It's not as easy as some would like it to be. It takes some thought.
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BrianMillerMagic Inner circle CT 2050 Posts |
And yet it's not as complicated as this thread is suggesting. Quite simply: all of the selection processes ought to look the same. Stay consistent whether it's a force or a genuinely free selection.
EDIT: Also, forces are only 'better' in comparison to other forces. As long as you're consistent, the audience doesn't get to see multiple kinds of forces. Forces are only 'better' to magicians because we have an arsenal of them to choose from and knowledge of many. |
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garcia00 Elite user 443 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-12-31 17:11, BrianMillerMagic wrote: The audience knows cards can be forced. Do not delude yourself. Especially when the reveal is not possible without a force. As in finding it in the lemon which you have never been near. And why force unless you have an over the top reveal! Do this stand alone, they will know. Not at the moment of force, which is what you are talking about, but on the reveal. Or assume your audience is stupid. The best way to conceal a force is among free selection(s). And creating the impression that the card selected does not matter in the least. Then they will confuse free selections with the force. Again, IMHO. |
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BrianMillerMagic Inner circle CT 2050 Posts |
Audiences are aware of most of the things that we do, and yet we still fool them with those things on a regular basis. The success or failure of an effect/sleight rests upon many factors well beyond the sleight(s).
By your logic, the audience will just as quickly jump to the conclusion that you've forced a card when in fact you haven't. But your position is that this would never happen, and the reason is because your idea of a "free selection" looks just that - free. So my position is that a force ought to be executed in the exact same manner as a free selection and it will not make a difference, so long as you're consistent (without even getting into the performance and psychological subtleties). |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-12-31 17:21, garcia00 wrote: In most cases that sort of routine requires an additional convincer that should negate the possibility of a force (eg: a signature). A force might still be involved, of course. Quote:
And why force unless you have an over the top reveal! There are useful, and subtle, ways to incorporate a force. Let's say it's less about the reveal, and more about convincing them that the card is lost. If I've forced a locator card, they can shuffle until they're blue in the face and I can still find the card without looking at any of the faces. It doesn't sound like much, but if you take a look at all the cruddy pick-a-card tricks out there, they suddenly start to look a lot better if there's belief that the card is truly lost.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-12-31 17:21, garcia00 wrote: You seem to be saying that if the climax of the effect is of certain levels of impossibility, then audiences can backtrack and deduce that the card was forced. This I can agree with. However, embedding the force between other free selections won't mitigate this. If you have three selections made, and the second one is a force and later that card appears in a lemon (to use your example), surrounding that force between free selections won't make it any more immune to penetration. I understand now your motive for embedding the force like you do, but disagree with your expected outcome. In cases like these, where we're trying to reach these high levels of impossibility, you're probably better off having the card signed and using another method, or using a corner switch or some other means. |
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Andrew slid in front of me, so all I can say now is, "What he said."
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