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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
Max: For your revisions -- The principle described in the Hoy book for the tossed-out-deck existed before Hoy wrote about it. It was used earlier in an effect called The Smith Myth, and long before that in an unpublished routine by Jose Frakson, the great Spanish magician. There is even a reference to the concept in Ottakar Fischer's HOFZINSER'S CARD MAGIC, written in 1910, many years after Hofzinser's death. Hofzinser used it in his effect: Everywhere and Nowhere (if memory serves).
In modern times, it has come to be known as The Rashomon Principle, coined by Max Maven for a routine he included in the October 1979 Linking Ring Parade. Max took the title from a Ryunosuke Akutagawa story that was published in 1915, and later made into a film that has become a classic. T. A. Waters like Maven's title, and went on to use the term to describe the concept in Mind, Myth & Magic (1993). I paid for Max's e-book (not Maven, the other Max), and although I recognized the English-as-a-second-language difficulties and took that into account, I was somewhat disappointed in my purchase. The e-book had a lot of padding (meaningless pages of large-fonted intoduction, etc. -- 12 of the 40 pages go by at the beginning without any insight into the effect or routine --). The necessary information could have been communicated much better in half the number of pages. I felt that $35.00 was too much to charge for what was offered. I would be interested to know, of those who gave positive reviews, how many received the e-book for free. The idea is interesting and useful to some, but credit should have been given to Luke Jermay, whose TOUCHING ON HOY routine seems to lend much to Max's ideas. I look forward to receiving the revised edition, and hope for better research re: crediting, as well as a tightened up publication, cutting the chaff and retaining what's good. In my opinion, this routine would have been better shared as part of a collection of routines by the author. Then the $35. price tag would be warranted, as Max seems a bright young man with good ideas who is serious about his work. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Athos Elite user NADO - Mind reader 481 Posts |
Thank you very much Entity,
I will surely include your research in the revision, thank you very much for the informations, You won't be dissapointed with the revision, I hope all issues and concerns will be dealt with the best of details, As for who genuinely bought it, to be honest Y2john and Colin genuinely bought the work. Thank you very much again for pointing out the problems and communicating your concerns, as well as giving me interesting information on the ''who'' and ''where'' of the Hoy principle. With all regards, maxime.
NADO
«How much of a gift it would be to really know what someone is thinking of?» - Steeve Blanchet, news anchor, TVA «Here is someone that truly uses his powers for good.» - David Meclomesnil, weekend radio. |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
Added History:
When I wrote my earlier post (as I said, off the top of my head) I knew that there was an even earlier reference to the principle in question, but couldn't place it. Many thanks to Yaniv Deautsch for reminding me of this: <<In the book Nouvelles Recreations, physiques et Mathematiques published in 1740 by Gilles-Edme Guyot there appeared an effect where one card was forced on each of four of five spectators who sat separated in the audience. Later this card and several others were shown to each spectator in turn, and each verified that his card was among the group.>> ...and for adding these: <<On october 6th, 1950 F.V.Schoneck published in The Phoenix 213 an effect called Bluff and Challenge based on this exact principle.>> -and- <<Orville Meyer published, on March 1956 in Ed Mellon's Mentalwise vol.2, 8 an effect called Impact using, again, the same principle.>> I'm told that Kenton Knepper also published a routine where nothing was written down, and the performer gives audience readings to several members of the audience utilizing this principle, calling it: Reading A Hoy; from his Little Book of Wonders. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Athos Elite user NADO - Mind reader 481 Posts |
Thanks entity, I will have a look in Kenton book!
As well thank you for the added infos! Max.
NADO
«How much of a gift it would be to really know what someone is thinking of?» - Steeve Blanchet, news anchor, TVA «Here is someone that truly uses his powers for good.» - David Meclomesnil, weekend radio. |
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ElliottB Inner circle 3250 Posts |
OK. I posted, then deleted, then posted, then deleted. I guess I try to stay out of controversy. That said, I am not so keen on the exposure of the methods used in Max’s effect on this public thread. It just doesn’t sit right with me at all. I hope it was unintentional.
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Floyd Collins Inner circle Ohio 1633 Posts |
Nor was I,, PM still works around here I think!!
YEP JUST GOT ONE PM WORKS!!!
No one said it would be easy, or did they?
Check out my all new book "Chicken Scratches" visit my lulu store for more information. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/thecenterstage http://www.collinscomedymagic.com |
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Athos Elite user NADO - Mind reader 481 Posts |
I don't find that there was enough exposure to an extent so people could figure how the routine was done,
But I too find that it borders exposure sometimes... Just to give a Heads up, The supplement I was foreseeing (which I indicated everyone via E-mail that a supplement was coming) will probably go along with the second version of the manuscript, it will contain a psychometry test as well as a dead or alive test using the same principle. Max.
NADO
«How much of a gift it would be to really know what someone is thinking of?» - Steeve Blanchet, news anchor, TVA «Here is someone that truly uses his powers for good.» - David Meclomesnil, weekend radio. |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
Any exposure was unintentional. Max's routine can't be sussed out by what has been written.
I had assumed that when Tony mentioned the Hoy Principle in an earlier thread that the cat was out of the bag as far as that princple being in use in Max's routine. I made the history of the "Hoy" principle public because I thought that everyone could benefit from knowing the origins. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Athos Elite user NADO - Mind reader 481 Posts |
No big deal
the suplement will have plenty of new material. max.
NADO
«How much of a gift it would be to really know what someone is thinking of?» - Steeve Blanchet, news anchor, TVA «Here is someone that truly uses his powers for good.» - David Meclomesnil, weekend radio. |
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MentaThought Special user 615 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-10 11:49, entity wrote: In my view, neither the terms "impressive" nor "magnificent" are sufficient to adequately describe the quality of posts such as the above. Well done, entity, and thanks so much for sharing your deep knowledge of the history of mentalism with others here at the Café!
"A good mentalist ... will teach you a miracle because he understands the subtleties ..." -- Banachek
"If this works it'll be BEAUTIFUL!" - The Amazing Kreskin on a stunning effect he performed on his 1970s television series (PS: it worked) |
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Reuben Dunn Inner circle Has a purple ribbon wraped around my 1592 Posts |
A side question here, not really relivent, but one that is asked out of idol coursity: How is the sale price of an electronic book arrived at?
How does an author, ANY author, arrive at a purchase price for a PDF book? I have a small knowledge/understanding of the cost per unit on a hard copy paperback/hardback book, but how was $35.00 for example arrived at? It's not a dig at anyone, but I am wondering. |
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pearljamjeff Inner circle Ann Arbor 1247 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-04-06 11:07, Reuben Dunn wrote: If you're at all into economics... supply and demand. In all seriousness, some might be amazed by the fact that items from lesser known performers can and do sell for more than items by the most publicly recognizable figures. Again, it's simple supply and demand. It's understood that a lesser known author will not have as wide of a net to cast in terms of the sale of his product. This makes it more exclusive and (whether justifiably so or not) warrants a larger price tag. In the same fashion, anything on limited release will sell at a higher price point than if it were unlimited. Anything available only directly from the author rather than at any magic dealer will command a higher price. An astute business person makes projections of supply and demand, considering the elasticity of demand, or the change in responsiveness to a product dependent upon a change in its price. This elasticity is partly created by the factors regarding supply (limited copies, unique author, etc). The perfect price point is one which the number of customers compelled to buy multiplied by the price point heeds the highest result. Sometimes a considerably high price point with a few buyers will outperform a lower price point with many buyers. It has to do with the perceived supply and the elasticity of the demand. You were probably looking for a simpler answer, and the truth is probably more along the lines of, "They guess approximately what they feel it's worth." Best, JT
Jeff Travilla - I own an advertising agency to help finance my magic addiction.
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parmenion Inner circle Switzerland/Zürich 3988 Posts |
Any news of this ?
“I love talking about nothing. It is the only thing I know anything about.”
<BR>Oscar Wilde experimentaliste <br> <BR>Artist pickpocket Professional <BR> <BR>Looking for the best book test in French? send me a PM! |
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