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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Books, Pamphlets & Lecture Notes » » HN Review 27: Live In Lecture, M.I.M.E 1a - Kenton Knepper (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Harvey Nerzof
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HN Review 27: Live In Lecture, M.I.M.E 1a - Kenton Knepper

AD:

The rumors are true. There does indeed exist a special set of unusual "lecture notes" by Kenton Knepper. These "notes" do in truth contain some of Kenton's most cherished methods and insights. Yes, there really is a
section on "Milton Erickson and The Mysteries" within these notes, complete with practical applications.

It is true Kenton wrote the notes "in a special manner" which others will have to discover for themselves. There are a great many layers to this little treatise on magic. Here are a few of the more obvious attractions:
Unpublished performance material, including a masterpiece in emotion from Kenton's stage show. You can do this stand-up too.
Two "readings" style principles you CAN and WILL do instantly.
A killer "Cutting The Aces" nearly anyone can do with great ease.
The Milton/Kenton "Spontaneous Magic In Two Easy Steps" - A principle that blows audiences entirely away. This is TRUE
magic. The real work on how Kenton apparently creates instantaneous "trance"-like states both close-up and on stage. These are Kenton's most succinct and to the point instructions ever on how he uses these Ericksonian principles in real world work, and how you can as well - no "stooges".
Kenton's secret one liners about creating "trance states" and spectator cooperation. Also discover how Kenton moves people to change during his performances. It is wonderfully effortless thanks to Dr. Erickson. Included too is the simple formula Kenton uses in his work to ensure deep impact and success - fully revealed and thoroughly
explained.

REVIEW:

Fragile booklet. A lot of hyped BS, some interesting applications of Milton Erickson's techniques, a bedtime story from B&G "Structure of Magic" and a couple of useless card tricks.

Overall Rating: weak

H.
shrink
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Tell us what you really think Harvey!

lol...

Smile
David Numen
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As a matter of interest have you actually tried the useless card tricks? I have and the reaction is terrific. I have only used the 4 ace one informally but have used the blank one many times and had great results with it.

The thing about this kind of material is that you have to think about it, play around, try it out. If you're looking for the latest quick trick fix then go elsewhere.

Regards,

David.
ravi
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I have now read several reviews by Harvey.
They are short, to the point and subjective.

But this is okay. Finally ,someone gives his opinion without caring about censored posts etc.
His opinion is his opinion.
He is not the final judge but what is wrong if he has got a different opinion?

Let us take his reviews as what it is:

subjective reviews where sometimes you can agree and sometimes not.

We are not Harvey and we may have a different opinion.

But this forum lives from different opinions.

So, Harvey, as long as it is clear that it is you own opinion on a certain item, keep your reviews coming as they are sometimes very interesting.

( Although I have a different opinion on many of your reviews, especially mentalism items)
I N D R I D C O L E

DEAD AnD GONE
Ian Rowland
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I thought the 'Good Bad Garbage' forum was the most suitable home for this kind of post?
www.ianrowland.com . Working Magic.
Nir Dahan
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I am with Ravi.

it is very rare here to see someone post an honest negative review.
if I disagree or agree with him is not the issue.
his messages should not be erased.
keep writing them Harvey.

nir
shrink
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I agree being honest is a good thing it helps reach balance.

I feel there is a lot of mentalism around that is more entertaining for the mentalist than the audience. There is huge amounts BS and hype around on here. Its been really interesting watching it for a while. There is some real good stuff to. And probably some more good to come.

As long as we are honest it could open up some good discussions that could lead to better material.
Ian Rowland
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I have no problem with people submitting 'honest' critiques. However, I think that criticism is only worthwhile when it's constructive and well-informed. When I look at two reviews I've seen posted here by our friend Nerzof, concerning Kenton's material, I'm not sure that 'constructive' and 'informed' are the first words that spring to mind.

I confess I haven't seen the two specific items to which Mr Nerzof refers in the reviews I've read. For all I know, he may be bang on the money. But somehow, I doubt it.

As an admirer of Kenton Knepper's work in general, I suspect these publications are worth reading and studying.

Here's an analogy that springs to mind. Suppose I offered for sale an 'item' which would enable you to charm the hardest of hearts with lyrical melodic expression, or excite amphitheatres full of wild young kids with raw and blistering sound, or provide sounds that millions could dance to. Now, suppose that in fact all I'm offering for sale is my electric guitar. I suspect that if Mr Nerzof purchased this item, his review might be: "Plank of wood with six wires stretched across it. Doesn't do anything. Useless".

Guitar or magic book, sometimes the value is there, but only for those prepared to learn how to use it.
www.ianrowland.com . Working Magic.
Nir Dahan
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Ian,

that is why a review should be evaluated for its contents as well as its author!
and by seeing a lot of reviews on different items from Harvey (which I must admit I don't know) I can get an idea what he likes or dislikes. and if those reviews happen to be similar to what I thought regarding the same effects, books, manuscripts then I know I can more or less trust his reviews.
if we both don't play guitar and we both cant appreciate its value, so be it. the point is that I (and others) can gain some value from these reviews.

nir

p.s. generally speaking I think there is a lot of hype when it comes to Docc Hilford or KK material (like it has been said here before)
that is my own view and you might think that I am not proficient enough to use the material...
Bambaladam
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I think I agree both with Harvey and with Ian. This is intensely overpriced, as is all material from Docc or Kenton, IF YOU DON'T USE IT. It often requires balls of steel, it is often not methodically "satisfying" as you often do very little in the way of physical subterfuge. But, when you USE IT it is worth every penny.

I think much of Kenton's material can look quite obvious to me. But I am no the right audience for it. And I love using his ideas for the right audience.

This particular booklet is still in my "to be read" list, so I can't comment on it, but there is a problem here when KK or Docc materials, even Banny's stronger routines, are recommended as great stuff for beginners. It simply is not. It is, in fact, terrible stuff for beginners. As is Luke Jermay's.

I think it is good that Harvey is posting reviews. I actually applaud his consistency. Sometimes he could definitely do a better job by being more specific. And we should realise the context in which the reviews are being read. I would agree, in this context, in the open forum, where beginners are only to be expected, his ´views are most definitely useful.

/bamba
David_Libertine
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Quote:
On 2003-05-21 08:18, Bambaladam wrote:
...but there is a problem here when KK or Docc materials, even Banny's stronger routines, are recommended as great stuff for beginners. It simply is not. It is, in fact, terrible stuff for beginners...


Great point.

I am one of the first to recommend Wonder Words to anyone seriously interested in performing for real people. Kenton's techniques are priceless in that aspect. But you are correct about his other work. It is definately not for the beginner, the shy, or the performer seeking to simply do tricks.

Personally, I own a lot of Kenton's material. I use a lot of it and it has never failed me, not once.

I have been disappointed with his work only in the fact that after reading some of it I realized that specific effects didn't fit my act, but his thinking is worth more than the effects. (IMHO)

It's not really disappointment I guess, but me being upset with myself for not asking enough questions before purchasing it. If I had done more homework, I'd have purchased other works on my KK reading list.

Concerning the overall price of the work, I have never complained about the price. If you use Kenton's material (and I do) it has many more applications than just the ones he outlines in the manuscripts. I've always found ways to utilize what he's had to offer in a book so the money is never really badly spent. It may take a while to find a way to use it, but I always seem to find something valuable for my act in there if I stew on it long enough.

Concerning the reviews...

I love the fact that someone is willing to speak his (or her) mind. To be completely honest, it upsets me more when topics and posts are deleted for any reason.

I'm not PC, I can't stand the PC culture, and I'm an adult capable of dealing with the posts I choose to read. I have yet to be truly offended by any post. A few have upset me, but that's my cross to bear, not the posters.

As long as the posts are truthful and honest and not just excuses to incite a flame war, leave them be. If they need editing to make them acceptable to the Café audience, well... personally, I'd rather not even see that, but it's not my house. It's up to others to decide about that.

Keep the reviews coming. When you disagree with something, post a cogent reply with your views. As long as we continue to work our grey matter good things are bound to pop up.
Boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Boy: There is no spoon.
Neo: There is no spoon?
Boy: Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.
shrink
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It should also be pointed out that Nerzof has posted a few very positive views on Kenton's work. He doesn't sound like a complete beginer. Sometimes it just boils down to opinion.

And lots of evaluations are subjective. I hate card tricks in general so for me the card tricks would be useless. Although I do realise some others may excell and get great responses from audiences. ( I could still watch and enjoy another performer I just hate performing them)
Bambaladam
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Shrink,

For the record, I did no speculation as to the experience of the reviewer. I too believe it is subjective. However, I do believe that his reviews are useful to beignners. This is difficult to express without sounding rude, I hope you understand what I mean. Anyone who knows they value Kenton's work will see their own point of view without problems. Buying Kentonism and being disappointed is a natural reaction for anyone who couldn't pull it off or doesn't see the point the way Kenton expresses it.

I would also almost want to suggest that reading Kenton's work requires learning how he thinks and expresses himself, Kentonese if you will. The initial contact with a book is often very different from the third or fourth.

/bamba
Harvey Nerzof
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Thanks for your comments and PMs.

Mr. Rowland:

I am an informed admirer of Kenton too, and I agree with you: all his books are worth buying - if you are prepared to pay 40$ for a single idea. Most of us can accept this without compromises, but others (that is, 6000 beginners browsing the Café) may prefer to be warned in advance.

Bambaladam:

Thanks, excellent point (and debatable nickname btw). Sure the reviews could be more specific, but it's so time consuming... I'd rather answer specific questions. Besides, I have to thoroughly test a carved piece of wood I recently purchased from the foremost transatlantic TV faux psychic.

H.
David de Leon
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Thanks Harvey Nerzof for your reviews! I’m a beginner, love Kenton’s ideas, but have limited resources. Your reviews have been a great help!
shrink
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Bamba/ I wasn't referring to your post more Ian's, however Kenton does get away with some awful stuff to as well as some brilliant material. And a lot of his language patterns are inspired directly by his interest in NLP. Which I find amusing when a poster is less than complimentary about the usefulness of NLP and then praises Kenton for one or two phrases that were created due to his study of NLP. And if Kenton has lifted material or stories from a Richard Bandler/ John Grinder publication then I think its great that someone includes that in a review. Real credit where its due that's what I say. Smile
IanBrodie
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I think this shows that one shouldn't judge a reviewer based on reading two of his reviews only Smile

And I get the feeling the reason Mr Nerzoff doesn't like some of Kenton's material is certainly not because he "can't pull it off or doesn't see the point". That's far too easy a way to write off criticism without properly examining the points made.

Rgds,

Ian

PS - Shrink - presumably we have to check out where B&G lifted the decent material in their work from to give proper credit Smile
Bambaladam
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Please, again, I was not trying to imply that Nerzoff is a beginner or an expert, someone who can or can't pull something off, or someone who sees or doesn't see points. I was just saying his reviews are valuable, if sometimes vague.

/bamba
shrink
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A lot of B&G's work come from Milton Erickson. However they are credited with developing a modelling system that allowed the replication of Milton's results(and others).

They are responsible for the the popularity of Ericksonian techniques and language patterns in particular. They give credit in all their books to those origins.

I don't really mind if Kenton or anyone else is inspired by those techniques. What I do find a bit off is when NLP is critsized as being useless while Kenton'(NLP application) is highly praised by certain posters.

A substantial part of "Kentonism" is NLP applied to mentalism
IanBrodie
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OK - I see what you mean Shrink, good point.

Although I can understand why people might have thoughts in that direction. For me (and you don't have to agree - I'm not looking for a heated "is NLP any good?" debate!) if you look at NLP as a collection of useful tools there's some great stuff in it. If you look at the theory side of it (B&G's speculation as to why the tools might work) I find it very weak. So I can understand why some people might criticise it from one perspective.

All the same though, I agree, if Kenton's (NLP based) tools are praised, then the NLP tool itself should be praised too (or wherever the tool came from - plenty of Kenton's stuff is not NLP based, and plenty of NLP tools are as old as the hills)

Ian

PS bamba - apologies. I may have read too much into your post.

I do have a bee in my bonnet about whenever someone criticises something, the advocates of that something always reply with "you clearly don't understand/you're obviously not a working pro/you looking at it like a magician not a mentalist". Rather than tackling the criticism itself they (albeit politely) write off the criticism by seeking to undermine the credibility of the author. Obviously you weren't in this case - I'm just hypersenstive about this issue!

Ian
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