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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Deckless! » » A Poker Story by Max Krause (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Eric Jones
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I just had an opportunity to play w/ Max's A Poker Story and have to say that it's incredible bit of magic that is a nice twist on 6 Card Repeat.

Here's a video of the routine:

http://innovativedeceptions.com/

Has anyone else had a chance to peform this yet?
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edh
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That's a great take on 6 Card Repeat.

I like the plot.
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Paul
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A great patter story. In "Small But Deadly" in the chapter headed "Tricks You Can Count On" I mention Stewart James was the first to finish a Six Card Repeat routine with the backs changing color, his routine 'Ternkote' can be found in "The James File" p.1196. Poker patter was also explored by Elmer Applegit and Alex Elmsley (but unfortunately with rhyming patter, lol). Elmsley had a strong finish with five aces. Since this was developed in the fifties it predates the Osterlind (which I'd been unaware of) as a poker themed six card repeat.

I think Max's routine is good and well thought out with the particular hands appearing. I'm sure this version will give new life to a classic effect though.
I'll have to give this and Richard Osterlind's a mention in the Small But Deadly sequel Smile

Paul.
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sohaib
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Paul, I look forward to the Small But Deadly sequel!
MagicbyCarlo
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Quote:
On 2009-06-12 14:19, Paul wrote:
A great patter story. In "Small But Deadly" in the chapter headed "Tricks You Can Count On" I mention Stewart James was the first to finish a Six Card Repeat routine with the backs changing color, his routine 'Ternkote' can be found in "The James File" p.1196. Poker patter was also explored by Elmer Applegit and Alex Elmsley (but unfortunately with rhyming patter, lol). Elmsley had a strong finish with five aces. Since this was developed in the fifties it predates the Osterlind (which I'd been unaware of) as a poker themed six card repeat.

I think Max's routine is good and well thought out with the particular hands appearing. I'm sure this version will give new life to a classic effect though.
I'll have to give this and Richard Osterlind's a mention in the Small But Deadly sequel Smile

Paul.

Yep, when the big "Out of Hand" vs. "A Poker Story" debate raged I spoke about independent discovery, seems the world of magic is laced with variations on similar themes independently reached, discovered and re-discovered. That is why I don't get too excited over the this is magician "A"'s idea and magician "B" is ripping him off anymore. It becomes a bottomless pit of debate akin to the age old question: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
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vance2276
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I can't comment on Osterlind's trick, which I have not seen, but Max's Poker Story is a lot of fun to perform. The handling is easy, and the story flows really well. This is a beautifully thought-out trick and a breeze to perform. You won't be disappointed if you buy this trick.
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MagicbyCarlo
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Well that sounded a tad angry.

If Richard feels my view on independent discovery is "adolescent" I suppose that's his prerogative. It's my prerogative to take exception with his view.

Richard Osterlind didn't invent the 6, 5 or any other card repeat based effect, or pocket cards, and yet he released a commercial effect which built on those effects and principles all of which predated and preceded his twist on the effect.

While I respect many of Mr. Osterlind's theories and thoughts on the performance of magic and mentalism, have purchased his products, admire and use many his unique contributions to the field. I can point out many instances where Richard uses other people's published techniques in his work. While I'm certain he always does so with permission of the originator, I doubt he received the blessing of the originator of the "Six-Card Repeat" when originally marketing "Out of Hand". So how does he square this with his view?

I'm not making this point to accuse anyone of anything, I don't feel what Mr. Osterlind did was wrong. BUT when you call my view on independent discovery "adolescent" and call the results of publication or commercial use of such discovery "theft" or "stealing" you had best have a better understanding of the standards of culpability than I do. What Mr. Osterlind insists is stealing and claims is "criminal and morally wrong" clearly doesn't meet any of the legal standards of criminal stealing or theft. Coming from a law enforcement and legal background, and having dealt with scientific research and the building of studies upon prior studies; I understand that intent is a key element of criminal culpability when defining criminal theft. Even when the dispute moves to the civil arena there must be proof that one product was sufficiently based on another, violates patents or copyrights, and/or causes some sort of financial harm. If Mr. Osterlind is so certain he is being "ripped off" perhaps he should seek legal remedy.

I hope that sufficiently explains my "adolescent" view.
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Scott F. Guinn
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I am a HUGE fan of Mr. Osterlind's work, and have been for many years now. I have stated on these very forums that I have most of his books, his video, and a number of his individual effects going back to the days when Busby was putting out his stuff. I hold him in the highest regard, and have NEVER been anything but very pleased with anything that has his name on it.

Having said that, I would like to give my opinion:

I have Out of Hand. It is a wonderful effect. You find that you somehow have five aces in your hand, and keep trying to get rid of one of them, yet you continue to have five aces. Finally, your hand changes to a Royal Flush, but each card has a different back! It's a great trick.

Max's Poker Story tells about a poker game with some shady individuals. Five blue-backed cards are shown as the first guy's hand--not a very good one, either. He gets rid of a card, yet he still has five, but his hand has improved; he now has a pair. The next guy gets rid of more cards and his hand improves more, etc. Finally the magician gets his turn. It is revealed that he has a Royal Flush, and all five cards have red backs! This is also a great trick.

OK, are the routines similar? Yes, in that they are both essentially six-card repeats, both end with a royal flush, both end with different-colored backs.

Are the routines different? Yes. The presentations are quite different. The methods are different. And while both climax with different backs, Richard's has four unique backs and one of the starting color, while Max's has all five change to one different color. In my opinion, while they are based on the same magical premise, they are two very different routines. (There are MANY versions of Triumph out there, for example. While they are in essence the same magical plot, there is a wide variety of ways to accomplish and present that plot.)

So, while Mr. Osterlind is and always will be one of my heroes, I respectfully disagree with his stance on this one. Further, he wrote the following on his blog in an entry dated April 27, 2009:
Quote:
The person I had an issue with about his version of this effect was man enough to call me and discuss the problem. Since this is not an effect I am actively marketing, my only concern is that correct magical history is preserved. He agreed to include all the background facts in his literature and on his DVD. With that, I am satisfied. Again, I acknowledge his doing the right thing and appreciate his going out of his way to clear up the problem.

Richard


It seems to be the matter should be closed at this point.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn (Finally a daddy!) @ScottFGuinn
MagicbyCarlo
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Quote:
On 2010-02-10 22:09, Scott F. Guinn wrote:
...It seems to be the matter should be closed at this point.

I thought so as well. At first I thought is was just a reaction to my comment about not getting "too excited" over these debates (my doctor agrees, by the way), but it also reads as though Mr. O is still raw over "A Poker Story".
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Richard Osterlind
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Gentlemen,

The comments in the second part of my blog were not referring to "A Poker Story", but rather the general issue of "independent discovery."

I stand by those comments and invite any intelligent individual to analyze what it would mean to this art or any other if that belief were followed to its logical conclusion.

Yes, anyone can independently create something that has already been done, but it is the responsibily of the creater to do his research to make sure it is original. And that goes far beyond replacing a blue card with a red one.

As for the six-card repeat, it was Tommy Tucker who invented it in 1936. I knew Tommy and he had no problem with "Out of Hand."

Richard
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Quote:
On 2010-02-10 23:07, Richard Osterlind wrote:
Gentlemen,

The comments in the second part of my blog were not referring to "A Poker Story", but rather the general issue of "independent discovery."


Richard


Then I totally misunderstood your intent, and I apologize if I inferred what was not intended.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn (Finally a daddy!) @ScottFGuinn
MagicbyCarlo
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Richard, I believe as a community that we should respect each others work, but angry disputes over who "owns" the intellectual right to alter an existing effect developed through independent discovery by two parties using "public domain" methods do not forward respectful dialogue. Fact is that while Cialis and Viagra have the same effect, they were developed independently to solve the same problem. Which is preferred? The market decides. Using words like "stealing" and "criminal" are accusatory, inaccurate and do not further civil discussion.

Paul Green and I came up with very similar solutions to a strolling, no table version of "Peregrinating Halves". Who owns THAT idea? We both performed in similar situations and had a common need and came up with similar solutions using classic techniques. The presentation is different but it's basically the same trick. He included his on "In The Trenches", mine remains unpublished, but if at some point I wanted to include my handling in lecture notes or on a video (as unlikely as that is) do I have to ask Paul's permission or refrain for sharing my own idea when I was never exposed to or aware of his version until I had been doing my handling for years? Out of respect I would certainly mention Paul's handling where to find it and suggest a reader or viewer check it out, but I'm under no moral obligation to refrain from sharing my idea, nor did I "steal" it, nor am I engaging in "criminal" activity.
Now you might say what is to keep someone from stealing an idea and marketing it as their own and claim "independent discovery". Well as of right now, nothing. Unless someone is violating copyrights or patents, while we may find the practice despicable and immoral, apparently it's not criminal. Look if you invented the mousetrap and some builds a better mousetrap, that's the way it goes. So your analogies to real world business is inaccurate. The truth is that whoever has the deeper legal pockets usually prevails.
I'm sure that if you re-released "Out of Hand" that even folks who have purchased "A Poker Story" would probably purchase it as well. I know of people who have bought "A Poker Story" and "Five Card Opener". The market eventually decides who has the most suitable version for them.

Okay I'm through spouting my "adolescent" views. (Okay, yeah I'll admit that rubbed me wrong)
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